DRK TP Sets

What about for OAT GS? Using Valiant/Latitude/Coercion atm.

TP Bonus all the way. Dark Designs over Coercion easily.

The thing about OAT has always been that as your gears progress, you are benefiting from it less and less. With the standard Legion set with /war, you are looking at about 4%QA 1%TA, and like 30%+ DA (lower the QA and up the TA if you are using Shadow Breastplate), it is essentially like using OAT without OAT. Anything added on top of the 40% OAT proc has its benefit reduced one way or another. I am a huge OAT fan as I have 99 GS, Scythe, and Polearm, but in high buff situation where TP gain is not an issue with regen, save tp, haste etc, it will get beat by other weapons.

I agree with the fact that Rag/Calad both have the worst TP/delay ratio due to the tier TP calculation system. Something like 528 is the best spot I think without looking at the graphic.

Since we're discussing voidwatch I'll go with that. That setup isn't for absolutely pure damage, it's a bit more for survival as I find having 2.3K+ HP useful for not dieing to stupid aoe attacks and giving the WHMs more time to cure bomb me.

Assuming your using TP Bonus moonshade and gorget / belt your looking at 0.95 @100 TP (125). One TP Bonus atmacite is +0.0625 fTP for a total of 1.0125 fTP or a 6.57% increase in WS damage (earlier I was too quick in doing the math). Adding another one is 1.075 for a 6.17% increase in WS damage. Total would be 13.15% increase in WS damage.

199 STR in WS gear (Elvann DRK/WAR 12 STR merits and RCB), Using 5 STR ring instead of the 7 STR one.

143+23 base DMG (Rag) 104+19 (OaT)
Assuming 120 VIT target (both weapons capped fSTR)
Assuming first atmacite is Discipline for +3 STR
Assuming Bravers Drink for +15 STR

Total STR: 217 * .85 = +184 WSC
350 DMG for Rag, 307 For OaT

Adding one +15 STR atmacite is a 4.2% increase on OaT and 3.7% increase on Rag.
Adding two +15 STR atmacites you get a 8.14% increase on OaT and a 7.14% for Rag.

The TP Bonus's win easily but you may want the extra haste off valiant and the 20 save TP of discipline, it makes any x-hit build easy to get and allows you to use other items in those slots. Also means you don't have to worry about WSing in Store TP gear. Which makes the decision between 15% STR (4.2% increase) with 15% HP (for whatever that's worth to you) vs +0.0625 fTP (6.57% increase) and possibly 3% more gear haste for an even easier x-hit.

You can also do Discipline Latitude and Dark Design's for maximum WS damage, just might not have as much breathing room for sTP. Not sure how much sTP you need to get a 5-hit on Ful.

Yeah Rag's delay makes it a PITA for gearing.

TP Gain Graph

Sometimes I almost wish I wouldn't of made one but it does put out some really nice damage. It's become a love / hate relationship.

Returner: OAT doesn't benefit from the same gear as a vanilla sword. Go figure? I'd like to see this 'standard Legion set' because I'm sure it looks nothing like an OAT set.

Saevel: Yeah, that's the same graph. That one does have a nice explanation of the break points: 480 (Fulgurante) and 530 (2 off from standard Scythe). The very bottom of the valley is 450 delay.

Gives some insight into the olde Subduer (444 delay) vs. Naglering (501 delay) debate too. Gear-for-gear Subduer would come out on top... as constantly stated by people who swore up-and-down that 6-hit wasn't worthwhile on Nagle because you needed STP in your Spinning Slash set (meaning you WSed in Askar body or something, this was obscure even to me at the time though).

It's less about the TP/Second in that graph though and more what the per-hit is versus gear available. That graph does provide a nice visualization of why OAT has an easier time with hitbuilds; it's benefitted by higher delay and a better TP/hit tier.

OAT has a lot of leeway in STP. You can 5-hit the damned thing /notSAM with Phorcys gear, and a proper Phorcys 5-hit on it is capped haste anyway or you don't have Phorcys and /SAM covers a major chunk (particularly on WS), so haste on atmacite is fairly irrelevant to OAT at least if dumping haste for STP is your intent.

Discipline is still entirely dependent on getting Miser's Roll, but does at least shore up double-misses on a 54/28 5-hit if you lose Miser's or something. Phorcys /notSAM 5-hit is 57/17 btw.

Mostly concerned with how much TP I get back from WS's which is why I use Discipline. That's 20 guaranteed meaning I only need 80 to make a 6-hit with Rag. WS is first swing so only need 16TP per hit vs 16.6. At 11.04 per hit we're talking 44~45 sTP during TP phase instead of the ~50 you normally need. Ful's 13tp/swing base looks to be in the same boat but for 5-hits. I absolutely HATE WSing in Store TP gear, Rajas / Brutal / Rose I don't mind but anything else seems a waste. Since it's voidwatch I tend to go /WAR and receive Chaos + Fighters + March x 2 + Min x 3 + Mad. The mad and chaos are more for the WAR's and the misc third DD (DRG / MNK / SAM) then for me as I'm most likely capping Ratio with just food + zerg + LR + min. Not sure how much attack is required to cap ratio no PW and it's six minions though.

So really that whole set is for ensuring Rag in voidwatch can get a 6-hit while maintaining capped haste and maximum attack / DA (still need that QA neck piece). I'm still not sure how to quantify the bonus from SE damage during the initial 60s shock phase. The NMs build resistance but you'll get full damage for at least half that time. My WHM's know to cure bomb the DRK's during their initial 60s SE + Fanatics rush so keeping max or near max HP isn't an issue. Most fights are over with in under 3min.

Base HP: 1739 (TP gear has lower HP so using that number)
Voidwatch HP: 2347

My context was OAT, and is almost always OAT.

The pre-Phorcys target, 54/28, is /SAM and WSes in Rajas/Rose/Brutal/Hagneia. Hag stone is the only 'iffy' piece to me, but easily the least lost. 57/17 I haven't worked on yet, but I'm not entirely put off WSing in Ogier hands unless there's a better trade in a Phorcys piece.

That's pretty much the standard legion set /war. Yes it is 7 hit relying on embrava but with a decent amount of accuracy and multi hit. With OAT you can probably drop some of the multi hit pieces for STP to make a 5 hit /war rely on embrava.

Hey look, a set for OAT that focuses on cycle compression and attack/accuracy. You know, playing OAT's strengths instead of copy-pasting Rag sets.

That with Phorcys feet and Windbuffet to take advantage of one 6 TP tic: 23% DA, 2% TA, 1% QA.

'Diminished' by OAT, these become 13.8% DA, 1.6% TA, 0.866% QA.

Hey, notice how TA and QA are hurt less by being on OAT because they override it? Yeah, something to pay attention to also.

Not the same set in the least. Half of that is just from going /WAR which isn't for the DA in the first place.

So 480 delay 5 hit 53.8% DA, 1.6% TA, 0.6% QA

vs

431 delay 7 hit 31% DA, 2% TA, 5% QA

Can you calculate the average attack round to 100% TP after the initial WS, and put delay and WS delay into each cycle to calculate how much faster OAT is in term of WS frequency under capped haste situation.

You are not capping accuracy with that set in legion tho, which can potentially be an issue, but would be happy to learn the end result since I have both weapons anyway.

PS: where did you get 23% DA btw, I count 18%. So you can adjust the DA% if it is wrong.

Am I reading that post wrong or are you under the mistaken impression that OAT overrides DA?

Regardless, your reductions in multiattack rate don't add up.

I believe it is the other way around, either way they don't stack that's the point. If you have 20% DA and using OAT, you don't get 60% DA, you get 20% DA, and the rest of the 80% you have 40% chance of procing OAT, which is 52% DA in the end.

Edit: nvm, I see your point now, you mean that the TA and QA and DA% shouldn't be affected, it is the OAT benefit that will be, which I agree.

Because it was Windbuffet+Mala at first and I changed my mind and put Phorcys in instead, but didn't redo the 'diminished' QA value in the second set of numbers because I wanted to get the hell out of this 85 degree upstairs and go for a motorcycle ride. Fixed now. I wanted to express how much the multihit stats from gear were being 'diminished' by OAT due to hits that would have been DAs anyway, which he was claiming to be much much more impactful than properly expressed because OAT does not override them, and the best refutation was to re-describe them in relative value of the same stat on a vanilla weapon. I wasn't intending that you have less TA or QA, but that the 'value' you get isn't fully reduced by 40%

Returner is doing it wrong with his QA value when trying to express it the same way. DA/TA/QA do override weapon multihit, proven with KClub on BG.

So 1% QA does not devalue to a 0.6% QA equivalent. Think of it this way:

60% of QAs would have been a single attack: 1(%) * 0.6 * 3 (hits gained) = 1.8 hits gained
40$ of QAs would have been a double attack anyway: 1(%) * 0.4 * 2 (hits gained, minus the DA hit you overrode) = .8

These are now 'hits gained' figures, which you add together then divide by the normal 'hits gained' of the stat in question, so ( 1.8 + 0.8 ) / 3 = 0.866% 'value' in QA

2% TA becomes [( 2(%) * 0.6 * 2 ) + ( 2(%) * 0.4 * 1 )] / 2 = 1.6% 'value' in TA.

Or in more words, 2% TA on OAT adds the additional hits of having only 1.6% TA, but that's still only diminished by 20%, not 40%.

You've triggered my trap card!

All this talk about how much Attack DRK can get and you guys are probably still hellbent on eating Red Curry (Buns). That set uses Murzim and isn't afraid of Ace's feet because it's set up for gorram Pizza if accuracy is an issue.

In before 'Baaaaw! Accuracy food is for gimps!' Follow me on this:

In our Enif vs Murzim discussion last page, Taint wants to trade 28 Attack for 10 Accuracy. Difference is that 28 Attack on my Murzim set is bonused by every buff you get, so easily turns into 50+ (61 with LR/Zerk/11Chaos). 50 from Pizza and you're only 50 or less behind eating RC/B. 30 Accuracy for 50 Attack, which is much better thought of as 15% hit rate for less than 3.5% attack (on ~1500+ with these 'Legion' buffs I keep hearing about). Helps WS accuracy too, natch.

So who's making the better trade now?

not arguing with you on the overriding thing, just the way you presented it had me confused after Nightfyre pointed it out.

In the end, I am open to use OAT over Ragnarok if you can show in math that such is the case, I have no bias what so ever, even if you want to think that I have, I was probably one of the first few to dig into OAT as I have 3 of them to 99, so I know how good they are.

What I truely want to know is the attack round to 100% for both setups. I don't believe OAT gain as much WS frequency as you think when counting WS delay and regen, as well as the fact that you will always start with 100%+ TP on a mob due to embrava regen and wait time (you lock buff yes, but still you gain 6 tp here and there when you are unlocked by buffs or running to a mob), so your WS frequency advantage is again reduced even by a little. And believe it or not, even with Pizza your set is probably still uncapped accuracy.

This is just from using OAT for a long time prior to obtaining Ragnarok, and I have a WS script so I have little to no human error in term of WSing when hitting 100% (in fact I built that script for OAT weapons cuz I tp overflow too much under high haste). I know that many time my WS frequency aren't more than 20% more than none OAT weapons.

Can someone put both setup to the DPS spread sheet with 100% LR, Berserk, and Aggressor/DE? Thanks.

This isn't an OAT vs. Rag discussion. This is 'Hitbuild OAT' vs 'Cookie-cutter set OAT' discussion. I asked you what the 'standard Legion set' was so I could point out that OAT probably shouldn't use anything in the same style. OAT is 20 accuracy behind Rag to begin with, so jumping to Pizza and putting an extra 42 base attack under your buffs to make up for it makes sense from the start.

For that matter, if you aren't capping accuracy with DE, Aggressor, and Pizza... nobody is.

Anyway, you're asking for something I already do a bit of, 'average rounds per WS', which is a pain in the *** to manually calculate for 6-hit and higher but certainly able to incorporate DA/TA/QA and easily quantified as 'lower is better'. There was somebody on BG using a spreadsheet to generate this for Kraken Club actually. You can then multiply this by delay (in seconds) and add two seconds for WS to get a cycle time like I posted last page.

OAT on 5-hit, raw, is an average 3.056 rounds per cycle. 2-4 on 5-hit is something around 2.4 rounds/cycle average (depending on the distribution you use).


Rag 6-hit and vanilla is 5 rounds per cycle, natch. 9.18 seconds per cycle at capped haste. 65 WS in 10 minutes just at absolute baseline of hitbuild.

If someone could build a spreadsheet that can calculate changes in avg.rounds/cycle from DA/TA/QA and other stats being added (but hitbuild remaning static) it would be easy to pin down equivalence of going 5-hit to 6-hit versus adding DA/TA/QA gear. It's just a whole lot of probability wankery and decimal juggling to do manually though.

For the most part though, I do feel only the TA and QA is gonna be useful to OAT. I considered the Embrava swaps because that applies to NNI as well.

Mind if I cover something though? You've played two arguments so far:

1. OAT gets less out of multiattack gear.
Refutation: OAT doesn't use that gear in a proper set anyway.

2. OAT should be using multiattack gear like Rag does.
Refutation: OAT can't actually utilize that gear without throwing away the hitbuild advantage, but see above your own submission that OAT doesn't benefit from it as much anyway (though still more than you insinuated).

I feel like I'm fighting a double standard here, see? You're saying 'Rag wins because it makes better use of a Rag-oriented gear set'.

Anyway, let me show you something cool in this very thread:
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/31070/drk-tp-sets/8/#2001873

Take note: He was confused because the spreadsheet decided 5-hit was the way to go on OAT, yet still someone jumped to question a spreadsheet optimized set. If that doesn't at least raise a consideration about OAT having different subtleties from Rag I'm gonna have an aneurysm.

I say 'OAT gears differently from Rag', someone's spreadsheet agrees, and still this is the treatment it gets.

How much accuracy is concidered enough in Legion anyways?

Is that really standard?

Enif > Armadaberk
Atillas > Bale Earring
Hagneia > Fire Bomblet

That gains you 11 DEX, 15 STR, 30 Attack, 2STP for the loss of effectively 3% DA and 1 acc (but DEX and STR values are still unconverted there). That seems like a no brainer to me. (Assuming of course that's a LR up, capped magic haste set which the 15% haste suggests)

To me it looks like you're just crowbarring Enif body in for the sake of the Quadruple Attack.

I'm not saying those changes make that set optimal for the record. Just those are obvious changes that scream out to me in a situation where stats generally won't be capped.

Agreed with the above, I just really never consider HQ berk with 3DA and 6STP a given. I think if you can't utilize the 3% haste on Enif body, which we aren't in here, it isn't better than Adaberk.

not to bust balls here but i have to agree with jem and add a quick note - this set assumes attack is capped by the looks of it, i myself cannot attest to the attack caps needed for legion, but i would assume that capping attack in legion is tough, even with last resort up, then again as i just said, i'm a legion noob so someone preach

I look at Enif Body, and all I see is Porthos +1, so it doesn't appeal to me when compared to Armada.

Had a quick look and I'd probably look at this set under capped haste in legion



That 7 hits without Embrava (mainly as I don't like relying on Embrava regain with a nerf already announced).

If you want to rely on Embrava you can probably ditch Hag or Rose. (I'd be more tempted to look at Hag out of the two though as it leaves you the option of switching between Fire Bomblet/Bomb Core/Anger Bomblet as needed)

If you need to pick up acc you could look at switching in a combination Dauntless Mantle, Ghillie +1, Bale Gauntlets +2/Avant +1, Ziel Charm/Bale Choker/Rancor Collar.


Agree with the sentiment on Enif. May be just me personally but it does not appeal in either Ragna or Apoc builds for me as it's extremely difficult to pick up Armadaberks stats in another slot(s) at the loss of only 3% haste.

not really porthos +1 when you are getting accuracy instead of attack, which is much more important to cap first. When ppl look at Enif they look at QA and Accuracy, but forget that it has HP and Haste as well. We are just not yet able to utilize that 3% haste so it is wasted. If in the future there is a way to fully use that 3% haste then it would be a completely different story here. And again, I never said standard = optimal, I would image ppl can get Enif easier than a perfect armada, it is more like the average instead of optimal. You can also drop Attilas and use Bale on the Enif set, the 1 stp there really doesn't break the hit build, it is just that mine has accuracy augment on it so I choose to use it.

as for the above set, you can just use Ogier's gloves + pole grip + Bale Head +2 over Phorcy's head + Phorcy's hands + rose strap. This way you gain some DA and not lose any stp.

One caveat I'd throw out when evaluating Legion sets is that the data I've seen in ongoing research into Legion mob stats at BG suggests that Ratio will be capped with aggressive buffs/debuffs (parses include a Ryunohige with comparable cRatio to Rags/Ukons on multiple mobs). If a DRG/SAM is capping Ratio, DRK will be well past cap. fSTR seems to be more difficult to cap on most mobs, though the last post I saw mentioned the possibility of Botulus having fairly low VIT.

I think my parses from the last few full Mul runs, I averaged around 2200 reso and 220 per melee hit. That's including everything so it should obviously be slightly higher if we are not counting Rex and Naraka. I am not sure if that's ratio cap since I don't know the lvl of these mobs.

Set 1: Pole + Ogiers + Bale+2 = 14 STR, 11 DEX, 10 STP, 5% DA
Set 2: Rose + Phorcys + Phorcys = 17 STR, 10 Acc, 9 STP, 2% DA, 25 Attack

Set 1 probably edges it for damage (unless your attack is horrible which it won't be) but Set 2 gives you more flexibility in gear swaps like switching to Avant +1

I'd rather take the flexibility of Set 2 (probably more so for when you're not haste capped) but it's gonna come down to personal preference.

We still need some rough idea of actual Attack and Accuracy targets in Legion. You have to know if you're overshooting one to decide to trade for the other.

Min-Maxing without a target is just pedantic.

Waiting for them to give Test Server Invulnerability, have been itching to test for stats on a bunch of higher end things.

How about mala+rancor mantle+claymore grip vs mala+atheling+pole grip in a tp set? I see most ppl using pole and atheling, however im a crit junkie. So in a situation of higher tier content where i dont have to be afraid of 1shots, what would be better?

Edit: Using 95 rag if that changes anything