Another Pro Choice Vs Pro Life Thread

You are right. My experience is unique but the point I was trying to make is that all of us are products of our surroundings whether good or bad.

I know what side of the argument you're on, don't worry.

I apologize if I sounded like you actually believed that, lol.

I thought a main reason why incest was illegal was because of the health factors.

Links?

Incest is illegal?!

idk, it was on tv. im not gonna look for it

Probably a split between the cultural taboo and health related issues for sure. And you're right it does lead to a higher likelihood of genetic problems with the offspring. In any event, sexual abuse is a heinous crime, and it is especially bad when it is committed by a family member.

I don't think we're too far differing in opinions either, I was mostly just sticking to my guns for arguments sake.

This whole thing about punishing a teenager who gets knocked up by making her keep the baby and give birth, may seem good on paper. However from what I've seen in reality it doesn't work.

From experience all I've noticed is that not only does she not learn any lessons from it, but instead will keep getting knocked up by different guys in hopes that one of them will eventually support her *** and all those kids as well.

In the end all you're left with is a single mother with 5-6 children all from different fathers who collects welfare and food stamps.

Definitely no lesson learned and actually just digs herself deeper and deeper into a hole.

Note: Not representative of everyone, just what I've seen happen to all the teenagers who got pregnant in or just after high school.

All I am going to say is the show "Teen Mom."

Those kids have no chance.

Yes they do. Those moms are going to make loads off mtv and such. Reality TV is not reality.

eh they probably won't make as much as you think. one of the things that gives rise to all this reality tv is because it's cheap as hell to produce.

True, but still. Reality TV doesn't always depict reality. Everything is so staged and you can tell it.

oh ya. but what sevvy* said is a little vague by them "not having a chance". i think what he means is that those kids won't stand a chance of being normal decent people, as in they'll most likely have a trash upbringing and make the same mistakes as their parents.

Yah thats what I meant, socially.

The people on the first 16 and pregnant shows made a significant amount of money. As the seasons went on, it dropped lower and lower due to the influx of people wanting to do the show.

I can't remember the source, and I'm too lazy to google. So no numbers right now.

I apologize for leaving this thread for about a dozen pages .... but ... um, this post caught my eye.

Are you *really* going to step-up to the dish with the screen name "Logical" ... and spout-off about how you're Pro-life, and you're really not sure why you're Pro-life, but you're going to support Pro-life initiatives just for the f*ck of it, and no other tangible reason?
Where the hell is the "logic" in that? LoL
I think you should take a Mulligan, and go back to some more spiritual contemplation.

Otherwise, I wouldn't normally do this ... but you must be a big fat ...

oh come on krizz... wheres the fun in that?
A thread discussing whether or not its murder, combined with religious ppl and their beleifs.... its bound to go astray' lol

I haven't read all 16 pages yet but I'll contribute anyway. I am pro-choice. If women (and men) don't have the option to make the decision to abort legally, then they're just going to take a coat hanger to themselves, "fall" down a flight of stairs, take a punch to the stomach, whatever it takes. It's going to happen because people are stupid and will still have unprotected sex knowing they don't want or can't support a child. I have known a few girls like this who got pregnant numerous times at an early age because they couldn't be bothered to get on birth control and "guys don't like condoms". Stupid stupid stupid. While I don't condone women having multiple abortions just because they're careless, it's better than bringing an innocent life into the world and neglecting it, leaving it in a dumpster, or killing it after it's born when they realize it's too hard to take care of. It happens a lot more than I want to imagine, girls delivering in a McDonalds bathroom and leaving the baby in the toilet to die. Fathers who didn't want to be fathers smashing their babies into the wall out of frustration because they won't stop crying and killing them... it's a cruel world. Aborting in the earliest terms of pregnancy is perfectly okay to me if the parents are unfit or think it's best.

Amber from the first season made 60k. Source: she's from my hometown (sad to say) my wife waited on her numerous times blowing her money at her jewelry store. She now resides in jail where she has been for the last 2 mos.

Edit: Oh ya and she is broke again, the judge has ordered her to keep come up with 10k for her childs college fund, which she has yet to make happen. Local News paper & Another

I'm always amazed at the anti-choice's blind rage without any evidence to back up their argument beyond their own religious passions.

Let's dissect your argument:

1. 99% of abortions are for convenience:

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

Why women have abortions:
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

So 93% of them are not life threatening or rape/incest. However I'd hardly call that 93% as using abortion as "convenience" as you would put it. If you look at the income and religious makeup of abortions:

You can see that 87% of women having abortions consider themselves religious/christian (with 18% of those being "born again evangelicals").

87% of them are under 25.

75% are unmarried.

50% are at poverty level or just under 30k a year for their combined households.

So the majority of these "convenient" abortions are from women who are economically incapable of supporting their potential offspring and/or would be socially castrated if anyone found out. It's amazing that the religions that foster such a hatred towards the rights of women also contribute to the highest abortion rates via making it completely unacceptable to have a baby out of wedlock (oh and then telling their kids not to use condoms lol).

You want to know what the number one cause of abortion is in America? Religion.

But hey, let's make these poor women who will be socially destroyed for continuing the pregnancy and fiscally castrated by having to support the child, serve as incubation chambers for these clumps of cells, so they can grow up to be uneducated poverty stricken leeches on society. At least they'll most likely be religious too!

2. I actually do think I'm pretty smart. But then again all I have to back it up is several degrees, research, and analytical skills. But that doesn't really matter, because I provide you with links and data whenever I debate, so you don't even have to trust me!

The point is, that what I stated was 100% accurate: The debate is not where life begins, as life is a continuum. It's where personhood begins. It is illogical to assign personhood at the very moment that semen touches the egg. As a society we've determined personhood based on a myriad of development criteria, and made our standard around that scientific based decision.

Any decision earlier than that is made solely on religious principles and the idea that the fetus has a soul the moment sperm touches the egg. This is a nonsense argument. You cannot force your belief in god(s) onto the bodies of every woman in this country. You have no evidence to back up your claim, and have done nothing but wave your hands and act like a child in this thread. Trust me, the only absence of knowledge in this thread is your own.

And no, none of this was actually to you, as it's clear you're beyond any logical help. This was for anyone else reading that may not be intellectually challenged.

Neo, you just gave me a fact-based ***.

Also, I think it needs to be stressed so much more that you can be pro-choice and pro-life, but by touting around how abortions are evil and should be illegal most people come off as only one thing: anti-choice.

I really like your use of that term, Neo.

i think the worst thing in here is that the judge thinks that 10k is going to get anywhere for college now lol. with how financial aid works, the kid is probably better off having nothing in a college fund.

Adoption is a option. So yeah pro-life.(if the mother is to die over the child's birth guess what pro-choice.)

Just because you were adopted doesn't mean you should automatically be "pro-life".

I'm adopted? no, let me edit that and make it more clear <,< oo I even made it rhyme =)

lol True that, but that pretty much sums up this town. :(

Not every child up for adoption gets adopted.

Not even by a long shot -- it's very unfortunate :/

better chances at life then dying before getting to breath.

So you're stating that:

1. Life begins at conception and any mistake made that led to pregnancy (lack of education, poverty, lack of access, broken contraceptives) is just an "oh well" for the mother who should become an incubator for the clump of cells.

2. The 9 months of carrying the child and hours/days of birthing the child is just a "tough luck" for getting pregnant?

Interesting perspective. And it's not called pro-life, it's called "pro-poor-women-incubators", common mistake.

edit: Also, women have millions of eggs that "die before every getting the chance to breathe". If you want to talk about "potential life", we better to get fertilizing every egg possible to prevent the MASS GENOCIDE!!

I for one am up to the task of this mass impregnation. Whose first?

We covered how flawed the adoption system is atm. It's overly expensive, inconvenient, and highly packed. There's simply not enough demand to adopt.

Does anyone know if there are any tax benefits of adoption?

Honestly don't even think abortion should be a word. The fact that it became so common or used that they needed to give it a word is sorta sick to me.

If someone gets pregnant it is their fault(guy and girl) (unless raped) it is a very harsh thing to tell people what they can/can't do with their own bodies but what about the person inside the woman's belly? who is going to speak for them? (edit later busy)