Prime Weapon Feedback Thread

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Prime Weapon Feedback Thread
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 Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2023-06-01 04:16:57
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SimonSes said: »
Problem for melee setup is still Aminon, but maybe this will change too.
The problem is most people will never see Aminon at all. Then again most people only saw Ou because of alliance/LS


SimonSes said: »
I kinda think your definition of obnoxious is
- cant be easily botted
- cant be easily multiboxed (running, teleporting, positioning)
Yup. I played up to 2 extra characters for friends and I legitimately hate it. Playing it with those 2 other people is enjoyable when we all have energy to play a 1 hour event at the end of the day.


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We're talking about the process, but it seems to me that a lot of people aren't sold on the weapons. Without knowing how good they are, we're hesitant to devote that much time to something that could be a side grade. I'm definitely making at least 1 and several look good imo.

My RDM isn't in love with 10 dt, 4 refresh, and 70 atk but if the WS is straight better than Naegling spam then I'll learn to love it. The luxury of 4 idle refresh is pretty silly on top of what I already have for RDM and PLD. Probably make a BLU if I make this. If this was the only option, I'd still be happy to make it.

I have mixed feelings about the dagger. If it's not better than current options, I have a hard time thinking it's worth the investment. Competition is pretty steep. Sword and Dagger are blatantly my first 2 weapons I'd get the most use out of but they aren't sold yet. I feel like 2h or Ranged is more likely to be a better fit.

If the bow is the solution to RNG bow woes, I'll make it for sho. A buncha STR and AGI doesn't hurt my feelings.

Shield looks great. Horn looks like putting off making a BRD for 20 years is finally paying off by not having to learn dummy songs.

Greatsword and Polearm both just look generically good. 4 step SC for a RUN is pretty cool. More double attack to 100% DA jumps isn't a bad thing plus beefy tp buff battery...i mean wyvern+3. I could do either.

And then the silliness steps in. 400 DMG SCYTHE with 6 TA and WS steals HP/MP. I don't play DRK but Sortie gave me a +2 DRK earring. Am i a DRK now? Is this weapon my destiny? IDFK but it sounds pretty cool. Thanks for the mild existential crisis SE, you're a bro.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2023-06-01 05:09:41
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The problem here isn’t in the required grind, but in how SE has implemented content. If the grind had us doing all kinds of content with various mechanics not restricted to: 6-person, 18-person, and maybe even force some objectives to be done solo, it wouldn’t feel as bad.

Look at mythics, for example. How many unique hoops do you have to jump through to make just one weapon? I have made two, and each time it wasn’t so terrible because you have content like Assaults that see you doing all kinds of things (from easy to hard to frustrating) to achieve your overall goal. Farming up gil for Alexandrites was the most annoying thing, along with Einherjar, but only for its wait period. Otherwise, I enjoyed it way more than I did making a relic or empyrean. Even making an Ergon wasn’t too bad, although it took a long time to gradually work my way through its incredibly straightforward assignments. The wait period of several months just to start an Ergon was daunting, but if each day you chip away at these things, the time soon goes.

Odyssey. Sheol Gaol. Sortie. They only give you the illusion of varied content. Sortie may ask you to jump around on one leg while rubbing your tummy naked while magic bursting an Umbril for 1k damage, but that’s not varied. You only do stuff like that to unlock some teleports before moving on. Odyssey has you doing the same thing day in, day out. Sortie is the same. There’s no wonder why players look at that 1m Gallimaufry requirement and say “nope”. But if SE made it so you had to do a bunch of old content, along with new content in various ways, some easy, some hard, and some annoying, we’d soak that up and get on with it. Why? Because it’s not repetitive.

Repetition is the killer. Any game anywhere that forces you to do the same thing day in, day out, for months, is going to kill any motivation. Only the most patient, stubborn video gamer creatures will wade through that storm to the other side. And then the other creatures will look at them like... seriously? You spent 6+ months doing the same thing every day? Do you have any kind of life? Or did you leave it in Sortie?

In conclusion, I don’t have an issue with a 6+ month journey to earning something. But once again, SE has failed to take note that most people aren’t willing to jump through the same hoop for six months. And that’s why this fails in many people’s eyes. Some will do it anyway because they are suckers for punishment. But most won’t, and I can’t blame them. I’ve done two Sortie runs since it was introduced (although I took a year break and just returned two months ago). I have no motivation to get on this train to the island of insanity, and I don’t blame anyone else for not doing so. There’s isn’t enough incentive. If I'm lucky, I look forward to getting my first completed weapon by 2026.
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By SimonSes 2023-06-01 05:41:48
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@Kylos Your opinion about Nyzul, Einherjar and Assaults is like that only because you have made only 2 mythics and probably not rushed. Assaults is 90% just running and AoE. Einherjar is 2-3min go in and AoE. Nyzul is running and AoE and *** lamps on top. Its all the same with almost no variety. Try to rush it all and you will see how tedious it is.

Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Sortie may ask you to jump around on one leg while rubbing your tummy naked while magic bursting an Umbril for 1k damage, but that’s not varied.

Currently you have at least those repetitive objective:
- magic damage/kills
- magic bursting
- 4 step skillchains
- looking for NM and kill in 5 min
- killing trash fast
- kill bosses fast or use various JA to deal with otherwise instat KO move
- Kill NMs to avoid statuses/damage on bosses. This include damage from behind or killing trash while being engaged to NM. There is still unknow condition for Ixion
- proc blue by reacting to element of TP moves with right elemental damage
- right positioning during boss fight
- special gimmicks for mega boss including Absorb TP, darkness damage etc.
- killing in order
and probably few more I don't remember.
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By Dodik 2023-06-01 05:57:01
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Jury is still out, there are likely hidden effects on the weapons.

Early feedback:
Weapons don't look "ultimate" enough, beyond the large accuracy and skill bonuses.

In particular, the Sam GKT seems to nerf Sam by giving it double attack which stops zanshin procs with Hasso up.
The Rng gun looks great, but would be competing directly with Armageddon.
Brd instrument is great again, but other than the new song which looks a bit underwhelming, does not offer anything new.

Similar cases for most of these weapons.

Suggestion:
"Make the weapons better" does not seem specific enough, so idk here. I guess I was hoping for more.. ultimate ultimate weapons. Perhaps clarify what the hidden effects are, or if there are any.

Also clarify if/what are any augments on them.

Seems a steep hill to climb for a weapon with so many unknowns.
 
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By SimonSes 2023-06-01 06:14:28
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Dubaiii said: »
Prime are just made for the soloers/returners, if you already have a EMA it is not worth your time to get a Prime weapon. Just like Current Relics are more likely to be used by returners or soloers till he/she could make EMA.

You should pray your life will never depend on your fishing skills, because even blind fish will notice such obvious bait.
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By SimonSes 2023-06-01 06:20:39
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Carbuncle.Samuraiking said: »
I am really not a fan of the Prime Flute though. It's definitely amazing for new BRDs that don't wanna farm an Empy and Relic, but it will always be inferior to both. If the new Primes have MASSIVE atk and we can reach atk cap on their WS, then sure, the 5% PDL song would be nice, but f*ck, only 5%? Idk, I'm not saying I am uninterested in making it, but with the 6 month time gate, it's not ever going to be a priority and I will pick every other decent prime before it.

Its most likely +1% at least per +1 song, so total would be 12%PDL. All it really needs to be relevant is Prime WSs having like +100% attack bonus.
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 Ragnarok.Shaedhen
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By Ragnarok.Shaedhen 2023-06-01 06:28:28
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By the way, shouldn't it be easy, for those familiar with data mining the game, to look into the DATs and find the text for the stage 4 and 5 ?

I haven't messed with FFXI files in like 15 years so maybe it's more complicated than it looks tho.
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By SimonSes 2023-06-01 06:42:02
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Ragnarok.Shaedhen said: »
By the way, shouldn't it be easy, for those familiar with data mining the game, to look into the DATs and find the text for the stage 4 and 5 ?

I haven't messed with FFXI files in like 15 years so maybe it's more complicated than it looks tho.

It was mentioned few times that text for it is constructed in a way that amount of materials and galli needed is inserted server side.
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2023-06-01 06:48:42
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Been in and out lately. Why does anyone think that prime weapons will have a 4th and 5th stage?

As others have said, all RMEAs are a boring, repetitive grind, so Sortie being boring the 200th time isn't really a valid complaint. The main complaint I would have is that these weapons seem solidly mid unless the WSs are insane.

However, that is what I wished for in the prime weapons hopes and dreams thread so I am happy with it.
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 Asura.Iamaman
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By Asura.Iamaman 2023-06-01 08:02:39
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SimonSes said: »
Asura.Eiryl said: »
It's just sortie is the problem. It's dumb, it's really obnoxious content. Just like vagary was, but so much worse.

How is Sortie a problem. Its one of the best if not the best repetitive event we got so far.

It's been said a few times here that the issue with Sortie is the duration of the runs and that it's boring, even though you don't really find it that way, many do at this point. I think early on it was acceptable to some, but now that we're a ways into it, it's gotten kindof stale and for some (myself included) it was never really that engaging to begin with. The amount of time you spend running vs doing things is kinda annoying for me also.

If it were shorter, I'd have less of an issue with it. If it was more condensed and you spend less time running, I'd have less of an issue. I actually didn't mind it THAT much when it was just the Empy+3 grind, because that was obtainable, but doing Sortie every night for months to obtain one weapon is a different story. The rewards are also hot garbage, as is the earring system.

As for botting, you can't really efficiently bot or multibox C farms either, yet there doesn't seem to be as much complaining around those. It's shorter, you get good rewards, decent EP return at certain MLs, and the content is more engaging (less running around doing nothing but running)
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 Bahamut.Certainly
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By Bahamut.Certainly 2023-06-01 08:13:42
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I'm posting a thread to gather feedback on the Prime Weapon creation process. Please be serious.

Sure, here's my 100% serious feedback:
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-06-01 08:19:29
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SimonSes said: »
How is Sortie a problem. Its one of the best if not the best repetitive event we got so far.
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 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-06-01 08:28:25
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SimonSes said: »
@Kylos Your opinion about Nyzul, Einherjar and Assaults is like that only because you have made only 2 mythics and probably not rushed. Assaults is 90% just running and AoE. Einherjar is 2-3min go in and AoE. Nyzul is running and AoE and *** lamps on top. Its all the same with almost no variety. Try to rush it all and you will see how tedious it is.

Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Sortie may ask you to jump around on one leg while rubbing your tummy naked while magic bursting an Umbril for 1k damage, but that’s not varied.

Currently you have at least those repetitive objective:
- magic damage/kills
- magic bursting
- 4 step skillchains
- looking for NM and kill in 5 min
- killing trash fast
- kill bosses fast or use various JA to deal with otherwise instat KO move
- Kill NMs to avoid statuses/damage on bosses. This include damage from behind or killing trash while being engaged to NM. There is still unknow condition for Ixion
- proc blue by reacting to element of TP moves with right elemental damage
- right positioning during boss fight
- special gimmicks for mega boss including Absorb TP, darkness damage etc.
- killing in order
and probably few more I don't remember.

^^ this exactly. People saying this content is boring aren't fairly comparing it to other content, TBH. Is it repetitive? Yes. So is every single bit of content in this game. Dyna [D], Odyssey, Vagary, Omen, every thing you could think of is exactly the same every time you go into it, sorry. Running around Sheol ABC hitting enemies with your weapon skills is not interesting nor engaging.

I would say the difference most people are probably feeling is that you spend so much time running around in Sortie, which is what makes it seem boring. I don't personally think auto-attacking and WSing for 30 minutes straight is interesting or engaging content but apparently 1.5m gil is enough to convince people they're having fun, IDK.

Sortie is challenging, has a variety of mechanics, is a choose-your-own-adventure, requires teamwork and cooperation, planning, and takes advantage of pretty much every one of FFXI's (limited) mechanics. IDK what you all expected, 3 different events to spam?

I don't think it makes any sense to have a Ultimate weapon come from RoE or other events. If muffins dropped from Dyna [D] or Odyssey, I'd be really disappointed TBH. I don't think you should be able to farm an ultimate weapon by never (or hardly) touching the content it was designed alongside. If you could farm a Mythic without entering Aht Urghan Whitegate, it would be lame AF.
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By Taint 2023-06-01 08:30:02
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Sortie could easily take a page out of Odyssey design.

Touch the blank Thingy at the end for a Gil/Galli/Chest reward.
Greatly increase the EP return from trash mobs.
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-06-01 08:40:45
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You could realistically farm enough Galli to make a stage 5 weapon before you see a decently auged +2 earring from a job you want. And after all that, you are still just as close to getting that auged +2 earring from a job you want as a character entering Sortie for the very first time.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-06-01 09:02:38
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Taint said: »
Sortie could easily take a page out of Odyssey design.

Touch the blank Thingy at the end for a Gil/Galli/Chest reward.
Greatly increase the EP return from trash mobs.

"This content is boring! All this magic bursting, skillchaining, timed kills, attacking from specific sides of enemies, bleh! Just let us wander around an area, auto-attacking enemies and hitting them with a weapon skill until they die from it"

Say this proposal was implemented and the new meta was kill as much trash as possible, then hit the thing at the end. Do you think people would be thrilled to spend an hour walking around an area killing boring trash mobs with no mechanics at all? This is the fix to Sortie, really?

As a matter of fact, that would be significantly worse because these mobs aren't immune/resistant to aoe, so it would just be "round up 100 enemies and aoe them down, rinse and repeat for 60 minutes."

You guys should get an industry award for best MMO game design.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2023-06-01 09:03:26
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SimonSes said: »
@Kylos Your opinion about Nyzul, Einherjar and Assaults is like that only because you have made only 2 mythics and probably not rushed. Assaults is 90% just running and AoE. Einherjar is 2-3min go in and AoE. Nyzul is running and AoE and *** lamps on top. Its all the same with almost no variety. Try to rush it all and you will see how tedious it is.

Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Sortie may ask you to jump around on one leg while rubbing your tummy naked while magic bursting an Umbril for 1k damage, but that’s not varied.

Currently you have at least those repetitive objective:
- magic damage/kills
- magic bursting
- 4 step skillchains
- looking for NM and kill in 5 min
- killing trash fast
- kill bosses fast or use various JA to deal with otherwise instat KO move
- Kill NMs to avoid statuses/damage on bosses. This include damage from behind or killing trash while being engaged to NM. There is still unknow condition for Ixion
- proc blue by reacting to element of TP moves with right elemental damage
- right positioning during boss fight
- special gimmicks for mega boss including Absorb TP, darkness damage etc.
- killing in order
and probably few more I don't remember.

None of this is fun or varied, because after a while you default to doing the same set of objectives for max profit. If it was like Omen where it handed you a random set of objectives each run you could do, except this time you get huge rewards for going out of the way to do them, then that would be better. Or it could mean you only get access to certain NMs with unique rewards. There's so many ways SE could have made this content more interesting. It's mostly fun for those who initially figured out the objectives, but now most of them are found, groups will just default to the easiest every time.

As for other content being repetitive. Yes, it is. Very much so. Most of this game is repetitive. But then, most content also does not expect you to do 180+ days worth of runs (whether that is day after day or not) to get to stage 3 of a weapon with 5 stages. Would you do Dynamis-D twice every week 90 times to get REMA augments unlocked? How about the same Assault (Apkallu Seizure!) every day for six months? If any developer wants its players to do specific content that much, they better make it interesting before hanging the carrot.
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By Dodik 2023-06-01 09:06:05
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Make it half an hour, 50% less running and same objectives and it would be far more palatable.

It is painfully obvious the constant running is just there to waste time, and with nothing to do in between, forces setups where movement speed is essential.

The "objectives" are pretty arbitrary, and very Vagary-like. Vagary is objectively one of the least attended group contents in the game. There is a reason for this.
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-06-01 09:08:25
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Dodik said: »
Vagary is objectively one of the least attended group contents in the game. There is a reason for this.

Yeah, the reason is because the rewards are ***. There are ~2 useful items from it? Possibly 0 depending which jobs you play. Other than that, once you've cleared it once, the only incentive to go back in is a small amount of gil from the weekly RoEs.

Do you really think the reason people are doing Dynamis and Omen is for their engaging content, and not the rewards that come out of them...?
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-06-01 09:11:39
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Dodik said: »
The "objectives" are pretty arbitrary, and very Vagary-like. Vagary is objectively one of the least attended group contents in the game. There is a reason for this.
Lackluster loot. Limited money items*.

At the time of its creation, what loot that Vagary offered was actually good? And dont say Tartarus Platemail, because it doesnt exist as a drop. 95+% of Platemail's are either from Leafallia or Trove.


*Etched are decent money, however its bazaar only so most people dont bother. I dont believe the weekly RoE existed at the time, so the money loot was limited to the zone boss drops.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2023-06-01 09:14:44
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Dodik said: »
Make it half an hour, 50% less running and same objectives and it would be far more palatable.

It is painfully obvious the constant running is just there to waste time, and with nothing to do in between, forces setups where movement speed is essential.

The "objectives" are pretty arbitrary, and very Vagary-like. Vagary is objectively one of the least attended group contents in the game. There is a reason for this.

A few years ago I ran a Vagary LS on Cerberus that did it every week on Tuesday without fail. The original objective was to kill the merc business of selling Vagary clears, so we'd take anyone, as long as they followed direction. We got over 10 Tartarus Platemails (from Leafallia) along with unlocking probably hundreds of players empyreans for reforged. We very much loved that content. When my co-leader jumped server we decided it was time to pack it up. It had been 18 months. Vagary died out mostly because SE introduced those solo NMs so players can easily unlock empyreans without going through the usual method.

I believe we enjoyed it because it was so different, and each gate provided a new challenge. It was tough to learn at first, especially the spawn mechanics for Perfidien/Plouton, but once we got the hang of it, we really enjoyed doing that, even if it was a royal pain in the backside. Omen and Vagary are two pieces of content I have personally loved doing to death every week. My last LS did Omen regularly for almost 2 years. In the end, I just had to stop it, even though some members still enjoyed doing the content.
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By Dodik 2023-06-01 09:15:53
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Everyone needs etched memories, no one wants to do Vagary.

Sortie is pretty similar - everyone needs empy upgrades, few want to do it daily. It's just not as engaging.

I still like Dynamis as a group content even without any substantial rewards beyond new unlocks. It is fun, has special mechanics like area enmity, charms, one shot deaths, mobs with special features per zone etc. All this makes it interesting and fun.

But this is not the complain about Sortie thread.

It would make building a prime more fun to make sortie less boring and not take 1hr to do.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2023-06-01 09:20:16
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For what it's worth, it is complain about sortie, the thread. Because the only way to get the weapon is do ~200 sortie.

The process, is do sortie. If sortie is bad, the process is bad. Fix the process by fixing sortie. They are one in the same.
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By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2023-06-01 09:25:20
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Dodik said: »
I still like Dynamis as a group content even without any substantial rewards beyond new unlocks.

I'd argue there's a considerable amount of gil to be made in dyna with detritus/heroism/moldy, with the chance of semi-desirable Volte pieces. Those are cherries on top of the relic-unlock process. Also, alliance content.

Sortie has 0 cherries. Unless you consider the JSE earrings, then sortie has 1 cherry, and it's highly elusive, under 4 layers of RNG, and probably isn't the cherry you even wanted in the first place.
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 Shiva.Mewtwo
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By Shiva.Mewtwo 2023-06-01 09:28:48
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Taint said: »
Sortie could easily take a page out of Odyssey design.

Touch the blank Thingy at the end for a Gil/Galli/Chest reward.
Greatly increase the EP return from trash mobs.

Honestly said this before but they really should go back and start giving out decent EP for older content like HTBF. Even if it's just like 10-15k EP per clear of HTBF. At least then people can be levelling up their master levels while actually playing the game and not relying on EP parties and Oddy to do it.
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 Siren.Bruno
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By Siren.Bruno 2023-06-01 09:59:46
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Been in and out lately. Why does anyone think that prime weapons will have a 4th and 5th stage?

kuroki said: »
3 versions of each weapon in the dats, 4 technically with the stage 2 when the name changes.

hot take: the 3 versions of each weapon aren't stages 3, 4, and 5. they're actually RNG dependent as to which 1 of the 3 you're rewarded with after completing Stage 3, the final stage. this makes for an endless, torturous grind rolling the dice for both max level Prime weapons and max augment JSE earrings. a perfectly balanced duo
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2023-06-01 10:01:51
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All content, regardless of game, becomes repetitive when you are required to grind it non-stop for some obscene amount of time. The time factor involved is what forces everyone into the "optimal" method as a way to reduce the time.
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By Meeble 2023-06-01 10:02:52
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Sortie isn't functionally bad as an event.

It's bad because it's an hour long event on a daily timer, and offers little reward beyond muffins and the occasional earring you don't want or need. Sure, you don't have to do 7+ hours of Sortie per week, but without a significant time commitment you aren't ever going to finish a weapon.

If they changed it to a 3-day lockout, tripled the muffin rewards accordingly, and added a way to make incremental progress toward an earring of your choice, it would be a significant improvement. It'd still take six months or more per weapon, and you'd still have to do lots of sortie. It'd even help reduce queue times.
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