Lilith HTBF

Just went on RNG/THF to clarify something we all knew. Went outside Selbina, stole a bird feather from a Zu then Bounty Shot raised it to TH3.

Treasure Hunter = Treasure Hunter.

I would also raise one more possibility: TH could have been changed fundamentally when the TH upgrade system was added. There was a significant amount of data to indicate that TH0->TH1 and TH1->TH2 were much larger jumps than TH2->TH3 and TH3->TH4 in the old days.

However, with the drastically increased amounts of TH available and the ability to upgrade it even further, they could have easily modified how it works.

As is, I think it is fair to consider the same value equal regardless of source, since they all upgrade equally. I would not jump to conclusions about potency from 9 year old data. Whether the jump from 1->2 is still greater than the jump from 2->3 is questionable, but I would consider TH4 from gear to be the same as /THF and +2 from gear.

Without question I agree with this analysis. I have screenshots while I was on RNG with a THF in party, where the THF procced a TH8, and then my Bounty Shot raises it to TH9 in chatlog. Its all considered the same.

I wholehartedly agree with this. There used to be pretty solid evidence that thief's treasure hunter 2 trait was much more potent than the bonuses from assassin's armlet's and thief's knife at level 75. Anyone remember Tremor Rams? I sure do. But that was before the level cap increase, before the proccing system was created, and before the ability's potency was capped. Just by implementing a proccing system and adding the TH 8 / Th 4 caps they changed the system outright. It's highly likely the increased drop percentages for each value were streamlined at the time. Treasure hunter today is likely just a linear bonus to increases. That probably wasn't the case years ago, but you shouldn't rely on the data collected over a decade ago when so many major ovehauls have happened since.


All evidence suggests that yes, equipping TH +2 in gear as a non thief is identical to the /th +2 job trait you get from subbing thief. There is no reason to believe the two are any different. The reason thief main has an advantage in treasure hunter department is simply because we have a higher treasure hunter cap, and we alone can proc values upwards of 10 and 11+. The job traits and gear appear to be identical today.


YES, they are the same thing.

TH+2 on armor, with no THF present, should be considered the same as a THF45+ or /THF45+ hitting the mob, as both apply the TH2 debuff and both can be increased to TH3 via bounty shot. If they are being treated the same there, it is extremely unlikely they are treated differently elsewhere. I would assume there is no difference between gear and traits when creating your total TH value.

Additionally, TH values beyond 2 may very well matter less than the first 2 points, but we don't even have the data to say that conclusively any more.

Rams in Abyssea La Thiene should be a good target for testing, as they appear in great numbers and Ram Skins have a very strong and easily visible dependancy on TH.

Does TH+13 (+10 gear) have a higher proc rate than TH+8 (+5 gear)?

Edit, Devs said higher = more procs, but never confirmed that part

You are going to find that cleaving with th2 or th4 in abyssea is going to net you less drops than killing the same amount of mobs individually. However, since mobs respawn rapidly in abyssea, cleaving gives you more drops in an hour than killing individually. I do this at least once a month on the 11 Cankercaps in Aby. LaThiene to feed my addiction to marine stewpots on all my ranged jobs and characters.

2-3 agaricus per 11 cleaved
3-4 agaricus per killing 11 individually

5 minutes to run around killing 11 Cankercaps individually
1 hour to kill 132 Cankercaps individually
nets 3.5 stacks of agaricus

1 minute to train and cleave all 11 with Voracious V atma + tactician roll.
1 minute respawn + 10 secs for the mobs to notice.
20 secs-> Oh look! Dragon meat in that brown chest.
2.5 minutes per cleave
24 cleaves in 1 hour = 264 dead shroomies
nets 5 stacks of agaricus in 1 hour plus other stuff from brown chests.
(Yes I need to learn to ignore the brown chests to farm more agaricus, but I am an OCD taru gamer girl)

Not sure why we are talking about TH drop rates on normal mobs in Lilith HTBF. I have no clue how TH factors into an instanced battlefield chest. Friends get abysmal results with TH8+ on D while I get roughly 20% drop rates on th4 with at least 3 slots open. The thing I know I am doing differently is my OCD frugality with maintaining maximum food buffs. I know WOE is governed by the past so I get full sigil buff (food, refresh, meal duration) before doing Selbina HTBFs.

when the dev made the post, full TH gear included: Thief's knife, relic+2, and empy+2 for a total of TH+4 in gear...

Naw dood, TH leveling up didn't happen until... twentyteens

Yes. If you ever suffered through proccing to at least th14 on multiple Urmahlullu to get Chastissers... The higher your TH with gear and crits, the easier it is to hit high th numbers before the mob dies a slow death...

This entire post is a trainwreck of anecdotes, misinformation, and general malaise. Also, HTBC do not drop chests, they direct drop the items.

oh snap, looked after posted

But still though, it actually would probably be pretty quick tbh to confirm a difference between trying to raise TH in +8 vs TH21(max possible, TH?)
Melphina was already going to maybe verify that in the thf thread

I'm not going to buy gandrings or get TH +2 augs via dark matter though. I can reach the equivalent of TH 14 with gear, which should be enough to produce the results you're looking for. If wearing TH 14 increases the odds of proccing TH more than just TH 8 it should show after a while. I'm still waiting for people to respond with what they feel a reasonable test and sample size would be though. This isn't something I would be able to do very quickly and I haven't had time to even start it yet. Basically it would mean autoattacking a bunch of apex mobs and AFKing for hours on end and measuring the TH proc with TH 8 versus TH 14 equipped. Kparser can measure total number of swings as a metric for attacks to proc ratio, and TH tracker can report current TH on any given mob. So it's testable. But it's going to be a pain to do because of how slow it'll go and I can't get anything else in game done, so I'll have to schedule it around real world activities.

Honestly if you melee 1 apex mob with TH8, and then do 1 with TH14 and you cap / hit cap faster, that's good enough. maybe 2 or 3 just for verifiable results.

Actually, people already kind of do it. VW qutrub. They just don't record TH results. There would already be months worth of data, lol Anyone already sparkafking that way could just record one of the color % at the end. change gear for a couple kills to a max th set.

The test is to determine whether or not Treasure Hunter is hard capped at 8 or whether higher values affect proc chances. I suspect that S-E implemented it so that when the game calculates whether or not a melee swing procs a treasure hunter increase it does so using values that cap at TH 8, and any values beyond that are ignored for the calculations. It's possible to raise worn treasure hunter levels well beyond 8, but I don't believe anything beyond 8 is effective at raising treasure hunter values through the proccing system. They heavily eluded to that in the March 2014 update when they wrote this



Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/40657

It strongly implies that not only is Treasure hunter 8 the maximum we can get using gear without procs, but that TH 8 is also the highest value the game considers when calculating proc increases. Everything anyone has said arguing either way (for or against) up to this point has been anecdotal, eyeballing, or personal opinions or conclusions. there's no REAL evidence one way or another.

Again, this can be tested at apex camps with a simple measure of total swings versus treasure hunter levels raised. If for example after 10 mobs with TH 8 I swung 1000 times on each mob and the average TH level was 11, versus 10 mobs with 1000 swings each using worn TH values of 14 and the average level was say 13, that should support the idea that higher worn values do affect proc chance. If the average levels were almost the same it would be pretty solid proof that wearing anything beyond TH 8 has no impact on proc chances.

I'm not an expert in statistics and Motenten hasn't played the game in years (God I miss him....) So again, what would be an acceptable sample size to determine statistical significance of a test like that? I'm pretty sure just 1 or 2 mobs isn't enough, but what about 10? Would I need 20? 10,000 total swings combined for each data set? 20,000? It's not hard to do, it just requires time.

I'd say, tag three mobs, each with TH3, then melee each in TH4, TH8 or TH12.
Clock how many attack rounds each took for each upgrade.

If the time it takes to get TH4 in TH+1 gear is close to the same as the time it takes from TH7 to TH8 in TH+5 gear:
Then TH11 to TH12 in TH+9 gear should take a similar amount of time as TH7 to TH8 in TH+5 gear, else TH+5 is the hard cap.

If the first isn't true... this test is crap and don't bother tagging a mob to melee in TH+9 gear.
ignorance talking

Meleeing for Treasure Hunter procs has a bit of variance due to random number generation. Using a theortical example, if my chance to proc from TH 8 to TH 9 was 1%, and then my chance to proc from 9 to 10 was 0.5%, and then my chance to proc from 10 to 11 was 0.25%, I could attempt to melee a mob and hit my first TH proc within my first couple of swings if I was lucky, and if I was unlucky I may not see my first proc for over 100 swings. In a few lucky runs I may see TH 10 in a few dozen swings, whereas others it would take several hundred. When you're dealing with small percentile odds like this, variance creeps up.

That's why I'm asking how to go about testing in a way that the results are going to be statistically valid. What kind of method and sample size should I be looking for.

okay, then have someone else proc the mob with TH1 (level 15 THF), and see how long your proc rate remains 100% in TH8 gear and your max TH gear. if there is no difference, then TH8 is cap.

or does the higher TH overwrite the lower one with no message?
more ignorance

If you hit something at any point with TH8 the baseline becomes TH8

If I hit a mob with TH 1 on it my higher TH level will immediately overwrite the lower one. The mob would start with TH 1 as soon as the lvl 15 thf hit the mob but would jump straight to TH 8 as soon as I touched it.

Really this isn't something that should be that hard to test. The concept in and of itself is that "higher worn TH values affect proc chances". If this is true than wearing TH 14 should raise TH levels noticably faster than TH 8, and it should visibly show in the numbers. I'll just gather some data when I get a chance and see what kind of results I get.

huh, wonder why the thief complained at our ranger before then for doing a bounty shot to upgrade to TH3 before he (thf) had a chance to run in and tag the NM.