For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief
For the Shinies! A Guide for Thief
This is an MMO though, if they were fored to steal actual drops it would be a lot worse I'm sure. I meant in most FF games you use a THF or similar, to obtain rare or unique items. It's probably just their adaptation for THF in an MMO when the focus is on beating the monster and getting a drop instead of stealing.
I mean yeah, it's MMO and money-subscription that are the problem. They just twisted and perverted drop rate-increase mechanics to fit the narrative.
Instead of the carrot being 20 inches away, THF lets the carrot come close enough to smell.
Instead of the carrot being 20 inches away, THF lets the carrot come close enough to smell.
Asura.Ajamu said: »
Sup does anyone have a link to or have ideal TH gear setups if looking to try and cap TH out on current content and even old content meaning anything pre-ilvl? That includes ideal weapons.. I am assuming a jugo Kukri +1, bee stinger and hornet needle etc.? Also I understand that the wiki says that TH only procs on the first round of a multi attack but what about with dual wield.. can you get a proc with the offhand swing? I haven't played in awhile so I was curious but if I remember correctly you can't with an offhand swing?. Thanks!
Offhand swing is part of the attack round, and TH can not proc on it. Only the first mainhand swing per attack round has a chance to proc TH. So, if you are aiming for maximum proc rate, you need to single-wield and minimize multi-attack.
Ideal "TH Proc" set would be:
MH: Gandring
Hands: Plunderer's Armlets +3 (relic)
Feet: Skulker's Poulaines +1 (empy)
That gives you a total of TH+10, or TH13 including traits, which caps out applicable TH for a mastered THF. According to what we've been told by the devs before, anything greater that your total cap -1 has no effect. Fill in the rest with enough to hit gear haste +25%, and defensive stats. Done. ^^;;
Now you too can slowly poke things to death while afk in the hopes of increasing your chance at not getting nothing.
I don't recommend actually doing this. The proc rates for higher tiers of TH are just too low to reliably hit TH14 before mobs die even if you did. :(
Asura.Nyarlko said: »
Asura.Ajamu said: »
Sup does anyone have a link to or have ideal TH gear setups if looking to try and cap TH out on current content and even old content meaning anything pre-ilvl? That includes ideal weapons.. I am assuming a jugo Kukri +1, bee stinger and hornet needle etc.? Also I understand that the wiki says that TH only procs on the first round of a multi attack but what about with dual wield.. can you get a proc with the offhand swing? I haven't played in awhile so I was curious but if I remember correctly you can't with an offhand swing?. Thanks!
Offhand swing is part of the attack round, and TH can not proc on it. Only the first mainhand swing per attack round has a chance to proc TH. So, if you are aiming for maximum proc rate, you need to single-wield and minimize multi-attack.
Ideal "TH Proc" set would be:
MH: Gandring
Hands: Plunderer's Armlets +3 (relic)
Feet: Skulker's Poulaines +1 (empy)
That gives you a total of TH+10, or TH13 including traits, which caps out applicable TH for a mastered THF. According to what we've been told by the devs before, anything greater that your total cap -1 has no effect. Fill in the rest with enough to hit gear haste +25%, and defensive stats. Done. ^^;;
Now you too can slowly poke things to death while afk in the hopes of increasing your chance at not getting nothing.
I don't recommend actually doing this. The proc rates for higher tiers of TH are just too low to reliably hit TH14 before mobs die even if you did. :(
What Geriond said. Gear caps at +8 for THF main, +4 /THF.
Bismarck.Firedemon said: »
What Geriond said. Gear caps at +8 for THF main, +4 /THF.
Source? Lack of evidence is not evidence against.
"The maximum base Treasure Hunter level that can be applied from the first action against an enemy is 8."
Source: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Treasure_Hunter
and all of IT'S sources are compiled at the bottom at the page for reference.
Source: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Treasure_Hunter
and all of IT'S sources are compiled at the bottom at the page for reference.
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That's not quite the same, and I'm sure almost every THF knows that aspect of TH.
The question is whether TH upgrade proc rate takes into account TH in gear/traits above 8 (not initial proc level), but SE has never made a statement on that specific possibility either way.
The question is whether TH upgrade proc rate takes into account TH in gear/traits above 8 (not initial proc level), but SE has never made a statement on that specific possibility either way.
I seem to recall early tests in these board, while small in sample, seemed to point quite clearly at the fact that TPing with more TH gear increases the chances to have a TH level up proc?
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
My testing isn't to determine how potent higher treasure hunter levels are (IE how much they increase drop chances), but how effective wearing more than just TH 8 is at increasing proc rates.
My testing methodology is straightforward. I run to moh gates and pull an Apex Matamata, then engage and let auto attack do its thing. Then when the mob is dead I record the treasure hunter level as well as the number of swings I had on the mob (measured using Kparser).
I have two sample sets. One wearing TH +8 (Taming sari and Plunderer's armlets +3), as well as one wearing TH 14 (Taming sari, Sandung, plunderer's armlets +3, Chaac belt, Skulker's Poulaines +1, and Gorney ring).
When I'm done I'm going to tally up some statistics and compare
Total number of swings in each set
Total number of each TH level (IE 9, 10, 11, 12 etc) in each set
Total number of TH procs per set (TH 9 is 1 proc, TH 10 is 2, TH 11 is 3 etc etc).
I'm storing all the data on a google spreadsheet. Initially I had hoped to do upwards of 80 mobs in each set, but it's a slow process. It takes approximately 4 minutes per mob, and I have to be attentive enough to swap to a fresh mob after each so it's a bit tedious. But the early data does show a trend that more TH worn is more influential at proccing. I suspect just 30-50 mobs per set should suffice tbh. Here's my current results
Treasure Hunter Testing
What I'm noticing most is that with TH 14 the first couple procs happen a lot faster than with TH 8. I often have TH up to TH 11 within 100-250 swings wearing the higher TH set, but then the proc rate seems to drop off. I've spent less time collecting data in the higher TH set too, so there's also room for personal bias. But you can kind of see that if nothing else, there's consistency in the second set whereas the first is a bit more erratic. There is also the caveit that since my higher TH set has weaker equipment in it, the average amount of swings in the second data set is higher too. The average kill speed in the latter set is definately worse than the first, but that's not a surprise. Empyrean feet, gorney ring, and sandung are bad at dealing damage compared to relic feet, gere ring and twashter. Who knew?
My testing methodology is straightforward. I run to moh gates and pull an Apex Matamata, then engage and let auto attack do its thing. Then when the mob is dead I record the treasure hunter level as well as the number of swings I had on the mob (measured using Kparser).
I have two sample sets. One wearing TH +8 (Taming sari and Plunderer's armlets +3), as well as one wearing TH 14 (Taming sari, Sandung, plunderer's armlets +3, Chaac belt, Skulker's Poulaines +1, and Gorney ring).
When I'm done I'm going to tally up some statistics and compare
Total number of swings in each set
Total number of each TH level (IE 9, 10, 11, 12 etc) in each set
Total number of TH procs per set (TH 9 is 1 proc, TH 10 is 2, TH 11 is 3 etc etc).
I'm storing all the data on a google spreadsheet. Initially I had hoped to do upwards of 80 mobs in each set, but it's a slow process. It takes approximately 4 minutes per mob, and I have to be attentive enough to swap to a fresh mob after each so it's a bit tedious. But the early data does show a trend that more TH worn is more influential at proccing. I suspect just 30-50 mobs per set should suffice tbh. Here's my current results
Treasure Hunter Testing
What I'm noticing most is that with TH 14 the first couple procs happen a lot faster than with TH 8. I often have TH up to TH 11 within 100-250 swings wearing the higher TH set, but then the proc rate seems to drop off. I've spent less time collecting data in the higher TH set too, so there's also room for personal bias. But you can kind of see that if nothing else, there's consistency in the second set whereas the first is a bit more erratic. There is also the caveit that since my higher TH set has weaker equipment in it, the average amount of swings in the second data set is higher too. The average kill speed in the latter set is definately worse than the first, but that's not a surprise. Empyrean feet, gorney ring, and sandung are bad at dealing damage compared to relic feet, gere ring and twashter. Who knew?
With just that data set, it's still inconclusive. To really pin it down conclusively, we'd probably need a test where the number of hits needed for each TH upgrade on every mob is written down (not just the total hits ad final TH level) and preferably have a constant number of total hits per mob.
It could be done using logger, though it'd be a pain.
It could be done using logger, though it'd be a pain.
[+]
Asura.Geriond said: »
With just that data set, it's still inconclusive. To really pin it down conclusively, we'd probably need a test where the number of hits needed for each TH upgrade on every mob is written down (not just the total hits ad final TH level) and preferably have a constant number of total hits per mob.
It could be done using logger, though it'd be a pain.
It could be done using logger, though it'd be a pain.
I agree, more testing is needed.
If we did a new experiment, like you said, I'd count the hits to reach th9, then th10, then th11, etc.
For speed, maybe limit the scope to th9/10/11, and skip testing the higher th levels.
Proc up to TH11 on every mob before killing.
Account for multihits somehow
Not sure if possible, but maybe use React lua or something to automatically turn char around whenever TH procs, to pause auto-attacks.
Someone said a while back that TH can only proc on main hand and only has 1 chance to proc per round, so you'd not measure hits, you'd measure rounds to increase. And ideally you'd want to do it single wielding.
There's also the whole Feint and Sneak Attack to increase a chance is there not?
Quote:
Someone said a while back that TH can only proc on main hand and only has 1 chance to proc per round
Treasure hunter can proc on the any normal hit, be it main hand or offhand, or part of a triple attack. There were screenshots indicating that it can proc on weapon skills to. IE numbers were skipped in the chat log between melee procs and all that could explain it was a weaponskill proc.
Also I never got to finish that treasure hunter testing data set. I wanted at least 50-80 mobs per set, but it takes 5-6 minutes to melee down a mob and I have to pay attention enough to be present to pull the next. A dozen mobs per hour is pretty slow. There was a strong indication that with more TH gear worn though the treasure hunter leveled faster. Not only did it raise faster with more gear on, but it went higher too. The data sample is too small to be conclusive though. Like I said though... a dozen mobs an hour is pretty painful to slog through. I may try to add more to it someday though. The correlations were very strong though and answered the question in my mind.
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
There were screenshots indicating that it can proc on weapon skills to.
TH level up can proc from WSs, but you won't see the message on screen, as such it won't be seen by addons like THtracker either.
They also said WSs had a slightly higher chance to level up? I think? Not sure about this part.
About the TH proccing only on MH and only on main hits... who said that? How was it tested?
I think with a large enough sample it should be easy to test.
Avoid JAs, avoid WSs, just autoattacks.
Compare a large set of hits done with both hands and high level of multiattacks with a large set of hits with zero multiattack and only the main hand equipped.
Well it won't be real zero because of traits and gifts but still the difference in multiattack should be large enough to see the total amount of level ups you get, then compare it with the number of total hits in the first and second set.
I think with a large enough sample it should be easy to test.
Avoid JAs, avoid WSs, just autoattacks.
Compare a large set of hits done with both hands and high level of multiattacks with a large set of hits with zero multiattack and only the main hand equipped.
Well it won't be real zero because of traits and gifts but still the difference in multiattack should be large enough to see the total amount of level ups you get, then compare it with the number of total hits in the first and second set.
I did a simple test of Off-hand procs.
Using a lvl 1 katana in MH, ilvl dagger OH, and TH8, Main hand hits either missed or did 0 damage.
So far, I haven't gotten a single TH Proc after beating on birds for 30 minutes.
Unless there are invisible procs like weaponskills, OH hits do not appear to proc th.
Using a lvl 1 katana in MH, ilvl dagger OH, and TH8, Main hand hits either missed or did 0 damage.
So far, I haven't gotten a single TH Proc after beating on birds for 30 minutes.
Unless there are invisible procs like weaponskills, OH hits do not appear to proc th.
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
You fixed
I very much enjoy that none of them hit 14 (yet), pretty funny
One small bit of info though, only the first hit of a round can proc TH, so total swings is kind of irrelevant (just nitpicky)
Eiryl comment about attack rounds.
I wasn't even going to bother this time since it just comes up again and again and again. I didn't want to be bothered to dig for the comment/test about first hit procs.
On the topic of TH, I was in Reisenjima farming Porxies, and I noticed that every TH proc in full TH+ gear (TH14) was a TH10. This happened literally every single time, and I never once saw a TH9 proc (killed roughly 100~ porxies).
This is the first time I have been on thf since last updated. Has anyone else noticed this? Did they upgrade gear max for thf to TH9? or is this due to something weird in the area/mob I was fighting?
This is the first time I have been on thf since last updated. Has anyone else noticed this? Did they upgrade gear max for thf to TH9? or is this due to something weird in the area/mob I was fighting?
Vorseals, gear cap is unchanged
Cap(8) + Justice = first "proc" at 10
Cap(8) + Justice = first "proc" at 10
[+]
Ah, that makes sense. I figured it was something to do with either the area or mob. Always assumed that just gave you TH+1, but didn't effect caps.
So I went and did a thing to test whether or not treasure hunter procs can trigger on the offhand. Turns out they can, just like I've been saying all along. I went to Moriamar equipped with Twashtar/Bronze Knife to make it easy to differentiate between main hand hits and offhand. You can see the TH proc from the offhand bronze knife clear as day in this screenshot. It procced on the first hit of a double attack round.
So yeah, "Treasure hunter cannot proc on offhand hits" myth officially busted.
So yeah, "Treasure hunter cannot proc on offhand hits" myth officially busted.
[+]
Is the TH level up chat message displayed right after the attack that procs it, or at the end of the attack round that includes the attack that procced it?
Not sure if my question is clear, I can reformulate if it isn't D:
Not sure if my question is clear, I can reformulate if it isn't D:
not necessarily, H2H damage bonus from relic/empyrean for example will also show as the second hit on the chat log for some reason
So, about this "mainhand" TH procs only thing
I think that over the 10 years it has been a game of "telephone"
2010-12-07 Official reponse: "Once per round" became
"first action to stick TH" became
"single dagger would proc TH increases faster than dual wield" became
"offhand hits can't proc" became
"first landed hit of an attack round" became
"mainhand only first hit"
And some of that happened specifically because Feint SA and TA are all first hit, and all improve TH proc rate.
(for the record though, BG does state first hit) and first hit is always main hand *misses*... Also, as questioned the TH proc message isn't perfect, packets etc.
"Once per attack round" It really doesn't matter which dagger procs it, it's irrelevant. For all intents and purposes "once per round" is functionally the same as "first hit of a round" but semantically incorrect.
I think that over the 10 years it has been a game of "telephone"
2010-12-07 Official reponse: "Once per round" became
"first action to stick TH" became
"single dagger would proc TH increases faster than dual wield" became
"offhand hits can't proc" became
"first landed hit of an attack round" became
"mainhand only first hit"
And some of that happened specifically because Feint SA and TA are all first hit, and all improve TH proc rate.
(for the record though, BG does state first hit) and first hit is always main hand *misses*... Also, as questioned the TH proc message isn't perfect, packets etc.
"Once per attack round" It really doesn't matter which dagger procs it, it's irrelevant. For all intents and purposes "once per round" is functionally the same as "first hit of a round" but semantically incorrect.
[+]
Quote:
"Once per attack round" It really doesn't matter which dagger procs it, it's irrelevant.
Probably the most important takeaway here. A TH proc is a TH proc. If the TH level is higher it doesn't matter which hand procced it. You can't gear for one hand versus the other, so there's really no sense worrying about it.
[+]
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
So I went and did a thing to test whether or not treasure hunter procs can trigger on the offhand. Turns out they can, just like I've been saying all along. I went to Moriamar equipped with Twashtar/Bronze Knife to make it easy to differentiate between main hand hits and offhand. You can see the TH proc from the offhand bronze knife clear as day in this screenshot. It procced on the first hit of a double attack round.
So yeah, "Treasure hunter cannot proc on offhand hits" myth officially busted.
So yeah, "Treasure hunter cannot proc on offhand hits" myth officially busted.
Not denying your test but is the log a reliable way to know the order of actions?
Now thinking about the entire discussion, the idea of TH proc comes also by the procing animation. Its something clearly visible to anyone. But if even after 20 years none have a clear image of it procing on any hits aside first hit (and considering in the past we attacked really slowly as capping haste in every content just came after delve) thats kinda weird. I mean, we are talking about something that should in theory have same probability in both hands, So a situation you would see quite often that it was supose to be inconsciously true to everyone but that doesnt seems the case.
For what it's worth 100% of all procs that I've noticed came from the first hit of a round, literally watching the animations. It's always the first hit, the main hand.
If you really wanted to convince someone (and really care...) that offhands can proc, it's gonna have to be a video with the slowest possible weapons, and no haste. chat log isn't good enough.
But it really is irrelevant. Wouldn't bother unless your just deadset on knowing.
If you really wanted to convince someone (and really care...) that offhands can proc, it's gonna have to be a video with the slowest possible weapons, and no haste. chat log isn't good enough.
But it really is irrelevant. Wouldn't bother unless your just deadset on knowing.
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