Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Very disgusted WOT
So what your saying is, that you are disgusted by people who have different views and values than you do, and you don't believe that you should have to coexist with them?
How very theist of you.
How Christians Can Make The World A Better Place
How Christians can Make the World a Better Place
So what your saying is, that you are disgusted by people who have different views and values than you do, and you don't believe that you should have to coexist with them?
How very theist of you.
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Now that's not a massive oversimplification and claim from nowhere at all, now is it?
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Odin.Daemun said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
ITT, we have now justified genocide.
That makes me a sadpandaturtle.
That makes me a sad
Yeah, but something made a conscious decision to kill us all. That doesn't bother you? Something took the time and effort to drown cities full of people. At other times, something took the time to destroy another city as I recall, and turned an innocent into salt.
Can you imagine that? You know, I look to Japan's recent tsunami and look at the death count. I imagine how much that must have sucked. Your house is suddenly destroyed and water moving at x-miles per hour slaps into you, perhaps breaking your bones. It's fierce water, too, so no matter how hard you try you can't get anywhere about it.
Something wanted you dead so badly that there was nothing you could do to fight back, so maybe you got to watch your baby drown first. Oh, the horrors of seeing that and still struggling to survive!
But you're running out of air. Or maybe, maybe you make it to the surface, but the force from your destroyed house has cast a piece of wood through you. As you bleed out into the water and die a painful death, you imagine that even if you were good that there would be no way to fight this most cruel act.
There is nothing that can be said to justify genocide. Not one thing.
How can people worship that? How can people worship a deity that committed a genocide?
I think back to the victims of the Japan tsunami, of the flooding of New Orleans, of all things of that sort, and find wonder that people can still defend that bitter, tyrannical man in the Old Testament.
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
Odin.Daemun said: »
.I really value your opinion on this matter Sai. Knowing you are not of my faith, yet still are able to understand where I am coming from means a lot.
Like I said OP, I used to be you lol.
I really do respect where you're coming from in this thread. I don't think it's possible for 99.9999% of people who claim religion but its nice to see a few people who actually understand what their religion is supposed to be.
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Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
Tyrant makes up rules that say you have to rip out the left eyeball out of every second born. Does that make it good?
You seem to ignore that human beings are capable of rationality, of morality, and of deciding good and bad without religion.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Now that's not a massive oversimplification and claim from nowhere at all, now is it?
If you go ask all theists if they think genocide is ok, I'm think the overwhelming majority are going to say no.
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Asura.Rekin said: »
Odin.Daemun said: »
Asura.Rekin said: »
Answer my first question when you've the time but I've some more questions. One of the core beliefs in christianity is that god is all seeing, all knowing, and of course all powerful. This seems like a slap in the face to the idea of free will as well as questionable since he lacked the foresight or cared when the world was going 'bad' prior to Noah's story.
For a god who can see all and know all it seems he had a huge blind spot seeing as he waited til the world was 'evil' to actually do something.
If god is as powerful as you claim how can you argue that you still retain free will if he knows what happens in the past, present and future? And if he does know all and see all and can do all why did he wait til the last moment to do anything in noah's story and why resort to murdering everything? (yes everything, fish of different water types cannot survive something like the great flood)
For a god who can see all and know all it seems he had a huge blind spot seeing as he waited til the world was 'evil' to actually do something.
If god is as powerful as you claim how can you argue that you still retain free will if he knows what happens in the past, present and future? And if he does know all and see all and can do all why did he wait til the last moment to do anything in noah's story and why resort to murdering everything? (yes everything, fish of different water types cannot survive something like the great flood)
God does not hold everyone to the same accountability. He will take all circumstances into consideration.
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
That's where it gets interesting now.
What exactly is it that gives these so-called rules legitimacy from a divine figure whose tangibility exists only in a spiritual medium rather than a physical one? There's frankly nothing tangible in the physical sense to set forth an absolution of what is and what should be. Despite the lack of evidence, do you simply give the benefit of the doubt that despite human flaws and their involvement in which you follow without any sort of questioning or analysis, are truthfully following the will of God in his stead with full clarity, void of human ambition or nature itself?
Even if I were a Christian, I wouldn't take the word of anyone other than God himself. And since he/she/it isn't talking, I have nothing to go by.
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Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
Tyrant makes up rules that say you have to rip out the left eyeball out of every second born. Does that make it good?
You seem to ignore that human beings are capable of rationality, of morality, and of deciding good and bad without religion.
Are we? Are we truly capable of that? If you are grown up taught that killing an American because he is an American is fine, you kill Americans. If you are grown up told that having multiple partners and multiple children out of wedlock, you live your life that way.
That's pretty bold of you to make such a claim while acknowledging and denouncing that these same humans, with the same capability, have decided that it is okay to throw away a female child because they have no value to them.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
This is true. What makes you think they will, be it with or without religion?
Also, your hatred for theists is palpable and quite frankly doesn't do your cause much if any good. You spout hate, what's so good about that?
Who decides what is good? What is moral? What is rational? Is it decided by the majority? the minority? or those that feel they know what's best for everyone?
Caitsith.Sai said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Now that's not a massive oversimplification and claim from nowhere at all, now is it?
If you go ask all theists if they think genocide is ok, I'm think the overwhelming majority are going to say no.
I think there's a miscommunication going on between us right now.
I am disgusted by people who would worship a man who committed a genocide. They have every right to worship him, but I am still disgusted by them. I have every right to be disgusted with them.
Why shouldn't I be disgusted? Why shouldn't I voice it?
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
Again I ask you:
Do you think slavery, the belittlement of women and putting anyone not of your faith to the sword is 'good'? The Bible says it is. OT or NT the point still stands.
By your statement our abolishment of slavery is a step away from Gods view of morality on this planet. Do you believe this?
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
Again I ask you:
Do you think slavery, the belittlement of women and putting anyone not of your faith to the sword is 'good'? The Bible says it is. OT or NT the point still stands.
By your statement our abolishment of slavery is a step away from Gods view of morality on this planet. Do you believe this?
And I will tell you the same thing as I did last time, stop asking me how I would feel about something commanded to be done 4,000 years ago in a much different world.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Tyrant makes up rules that say you have to rip out the left eyeball out of every second born. Does that make it good?
You seem to ignore that human beings are capable of rationality, of morality, and of deciding good and bad without religion.
You know its not possible for god to be considered a tyrant right?
Either god is real or not real.
If he's not real, he cannot be a tyrant due to the fact that he doesn't exist and you can't be anything if you don't exist.
If he is real, then he is the ruler of the universe and the creator of everything, including what it means to be a tyrant, and he has already excluded himself from that.
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
This is true. What makes you think they will, be it with or without religion?
Also, your hatred for theists is palpable and quite frankly doesn't do your cause much if any good. You spout hate, what's so good about that?
Who decides what is good? What is moral? What is rational? Is it decided by the majority? the minority? or those that feel they know what's best for everyone?
Because I am good without God. Is that not proof enough?
My hatred is for theists that justify injustices in the name of their theism. I see nothing wrong with that.
On the last paragraph, I'm still looking for the answer. But 'god' is a pretty shitty answer.
Caitsith.Sai said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Now that's not a massive oversimplification and claim from nowhere at all, now is it?
On the other hand every atheist ever to walk the earth has been logical, moral, kind human being whom only thinks of furthering and bettering human society.
I personally don't get how you can lump the entire world into two groups but yeah...
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You know, this is the first religion thread that I've seen on AH that hasn't degenerated into a pissing contest. I'm happy!
/backreads
/backreads
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
Tyrant makes up rules that say you have to rip out the left eyeball out of every second born. Does that make it good?
You seem to ignore that human beings are capable of rationality, of morality, and of deciding good and bad without religion.
Are we? Are we truly capable of that? If you are grown up taught that killing an American because he is an American is fine, you kill Americans. If you are grown up told that having multiple partners and multiple children out of wedlock, you live your life that way.
That's pretty bold of you to make such a claim while acknowledging and denouncing that these same humans, with the same capability, have decided that it is okay to throw away a female child because they have no value to them.
Yes, we are quite capable. In fact we are able to decide right and wrong on many levels. From self to family, friends, community, racially, economically, nationally, planetary and so forth,
The problem is that good,bad,right,wrong are subjective concepts that cannot be defined and change from person to person.
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Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
This is true. What makes you think they will, be it with or without religion?
Also, your hatred for theists is palpable and quite frankly doesn't do your cause much if any good. You spout hate, what's so good about that?
Who decides what is good? What is moral? What is rational? Is it decided by the majority? the minority? or those that feel they know what's best for everyone?
Because I am good without God. Is that not proof enough?
My hatred is for theists that justify injustices in the name of their theism. I see nothing wrong with that.
On the last paragraph, I'm still looking for the answer. But 'god' is a pretty shitty answer.
I'm just curious, since God is "shitty," have you ever asked yourself...well what if God actually ends up being the answer. Because it's still a very real possibility, because nothing has been ruled out at this point.
Now, I am not asking you to believe just as a safety precaution, because that is a fallacy and you will never fool God, but let's say you die and now you are standing before him to be judged and he reminds you of everything you said, are you going to hate all Christians then?
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
You forget, by his standards religion is not allowed to evolve or reflect the times. To him all theists are simpletons who use theology as a crutch and are indoctrinated into being people who are cool with genocide, slavery and every other sort of violent act you could inflict upon another as well as keeping mankind in the dark ages.
On the other hand every atheist ever to walk the earth has been logical, moral, kind human being whom only thinks of furthering and bettering human society.
On the other hand every atheist ever to walk the earth has been logical, moral, kind human being whom only thinks of furthering and bettering human society.
Bolded are the claims I never made.
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
And I will tell you the same thing as I did last time, stop asking me how I would feel about something commanded to be done 4,000 years ago in a much different world.
Your God does not change and he exists outside time. It says right in the Bible that God does not change yet you're trying to use 4000 years as evidence for God "changing"? Further, why did he believe that one man should control another through violence?
What he commanded 4000 years ago is evidence of his morality today. The events of Eden have found their way down to the present yet when I probe on slavery that happened 'in a much different world'?
Even within the time between the OT and NT he didn't budge on women or slavery. Why?
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Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
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Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
I'm just curious, since God is "shitty," have you ever asked yourself...well what if God actually ends up being the answer. Because it's still a very real possibility, because nothing has been ruled out at this point.
Now, I am not asking you to believe just as a safety precaution, because that is a fallacy and you will never fool God, but let's say you die and now you are standing before him to be judged and he reminds you of everything you said, are you going to hate all Christians then?
Now, I am not asking you to believe just as a safety precaution, because that is a fallacy and you will never fool God, but let's say you die and now you are standing before him to be judged and he reminds you of everything you said, are you going to hate all Christians then?
A) I never said I hate all Christians.
B) I will still hate all Christians who committed atrocities in the name of him.
C) If he did commit the atrocities the bible claims he did, then I will still hate him for that, and for being omnipotent and allowing evil to exist.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
Good? Good by whose standards? You seem to lack the very basic understanding that if a God exists, he created us, he makes the rules and if you don't follow the rules you are not good, no matter how much you think you are.
Tyrant makes up rules that say you have to rip out the left eyeball out of every second born. Does that make it good?
You seem to ignore that human beings are capable of rationality, of morality, and of deciding good and bad without religion.
Odin.Daemun said: »
You're missing the key element that those morals, rationales and the knowledge of good/bad (right/wrong) all came from our creator.
Prove it.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
You forget, by his standards religion is not allowed to evolve or reflect the times. To him all theists are simpletons who use theology as a crutch and are indoctrinated into being people who are cool with genocide, slavery and every other sort of violent act you could inflict upon another as well as keeping mankind in the dark ages. On the other hand every atheist ever to walk the earth has been logical, moral, kind human being whom only thinks of furthering and bettering human society.
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Ragnarok.Evandis said: »
And I will tell you the same thing as I did last time, stop asking me how I would feel about something commanded to be done 4,000 years ago in a much different world.
Your God does not change and he exists outside time. It says right in the Bible that God does not change yet you're trying to use 4000 years as evidence for God "changing"? Further, why did he believe that one man should control another through violence?
What he commanded 4000 years ago is evidence of his morality today. The events of Eden have found their way down to the present yet when I probe on slavery that happened 'in a much different world'?
Even within the time between the OT and NT he didn't budge on women or slavery. Why?
He didn't? I don't recall Jesus having slaves.
He had His reasons for commanding the Israelites to do things (probably because of how persecuted they were at the time).
Why do atheists always fall back on the OT, which isn't even a Christian covenant with God, as their means of debate?
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