Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
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 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-06-06 13:00:29
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Bismarck.Kyokaku said:
Quote:
51% thats all I got? lameo

You spike around from 45-63%, i think status's and crap arent being accounted for

How you were getting your block rate numbers matter too. Block rate can't be parsed directly, you can extract it from a parse so long as the blocked hit's damage does not overlap the unblocked damage.

Anything you aren't capping on is probably not going to hit soft enough to overlap but it also sounds like a real fight not a lock all of your gear and get hit in the face for 3 hours static parse so the data is going to be skewed by gear changes and other various buffs/debuffs to the mob/tanks.

Still nice practical data to have though.
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-06-06 13:03:51
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said:
Bismarck.Kyokaku said:
Quote:
51% thats all I got? lameo

You spike around from 45-63%, i think status's and crap arent being accounted for

How you were getting your block rate numbers matter too. Block rate can't be parsed directly, you can extract it from a parse so long as the blocked hit's damage does not overlap the unblocked damage.

Anything you aren't capping on is probably not going to hit soft enough to overlap but it also sounds like a real fight not a lock all of your gear and get hit in the face for 3 hours static parse so the data is going to be skewed by gear changes and other various buffs/debuffs to the mob/tanks.

Still nice practical data to have though.

Yea think this was parsed on Voidwatch? Seeing as that's really the only thing ipld on.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-06 13:09:44
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Yep, in "real world" situations, you're going to be caught between gear swaps, reprisal up/down, terrored, stunned, etc, so you're actual block rate won't be anywhere near your cap.

45-55% is a pretty good estimate for block rate with Aegis on anything that matters (new Voidwatch stuff, higher tier dynamis NMs).
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-07 00:43:33
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People wanted AV info:

Key points:

Spells

Aero V
+ 0: 1
+^ 194: 1
+ 421: 1

Aeroga IV

+ 99: 1
+ 148: 1
+ 249: 1
+ 272: 1
+^ 293: 1
+ 369: 1
+ 461: 1
+ 493: 1

Comet
+ 164: 1
+^ 301: 1

Meteor
+ 0: 1
+^ 433: 1


Tornado II
+ 0: 2
21: 1
53: 1
^ 226: 1
274: 1
303: 1
314: 1
423: 1

It did Meteor more than that, not sure why parser didn't catch it, but the highest was 1300 - No EA/Scherzo, not in MDT gear (just aegis+shell 5). The above numbers were also in mixed sets (not always in max MDT set).

Most Meteors were on the order of 2-400 damage.

We actually swapped to zerg setup with PD when we got down to about 10 minutes left, because we had some mixups and didn't lock Bene this time. (He meteored and took out the whm trying to lock him then immediately bene'd =/).

But as you can see, Aegis90 (with/without EA/Scherzo) makes AV's spells, even Meteor lolable.

The only problem with the fight after that is ensuring your mages are smart about meteor (capped buffs, MDT sets, or out of range/alliance). The Plds are immortal with Aegis90 and EA/Scherzo, but the support/damage/mages are not.



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By Blazed1979 2011-06-07 01:29:16
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Phoenix.Neosutra said:
People wanted AV info:
Key points: Spells Aero V + 0: 1 +^ 194: 1 + 421: 1 Aeroga IV + 99: 1 + 148: 1 + 249: 1 + 272: 1 +^ 293: 1 + 369: 1 + 461: 1 + 493: 1 Comet + 164: 1 +^ 301: 1 Meteor + 0: 1 +^ 433: 1 Tornado II + 0: 2 21: 1 53: 1 ^ 226: 1 274: 1 303: 1 314: 1 423: 1 It did Meteor more than that, not sure why parser didn't catch it, but the highest was 1300 - No EA/Scherzo, not in MDT gear (just aegis+shell 5). The above numbers were also in mixed sets (not always in max MDT set). Most Meteors were on the order of 2-400 damage. We actually swapped to zerg setup with PD when we got down to about 10 minutes left, because we had some mixups and didn't lock Bene this time. (He meteored and took out the whm trying to lock him then immediately bene'd =/). But as you can see, Aegis90 (with/without EA/Scherzo) makes AV's spells, even Meteor lolable. The only problem with the fight after that is ensuring your mages are smart about meteor (capped buffs, MDT sets, or out of range/alliance). The Plds are immortal with Aegis90 and EA/Scherzo, but the support/damage/mages are not.

Is it too far out there to attempt this with /rdm?
Also I see you're using +2 set. Why not Val breastplate / helm?
I prefer the consistant -10% DT over the randomness of the +2.
If I'm mistaken, please explain why.
 Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-06-07 03:36:52
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Full timing gear is fail, I am pretty sure thats his Ichi set.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2011-06-07 03:41:39
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So if boring AV to death was a viable Strategy, PLD(with Aegis90) would be ***. Well done.
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-07 07:43:49
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Odin.Zicdeh said:
So if boring AV to death was a viable Strategy, PLD(with Aegis90) would be ***. Well done.

thanks for contributing. here's your reward.

 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-07 10:09:04
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Blazed1979 said:

Is it too far out there to attempt this with /rdm?
Also I see you're using +2 set. Why not Val breastplate / helm?
I prefer the consistant -10% DT over the randomness of the +2.
If I'm mistaken, please explain why.

/rdm is viable on this, however /nin buys you some breathing room during MS, HF, EES, SE.

Shadows will be down with /nin anyways half the time because he -spams- AoE/Impact Stream/etc. But I think you'll end up taking far less damage over time with /nin.

As for +2 set.. I swap 300 times a minute. My ichi macro has fast cast -> spellinterupt/sheild skill -> Haste. I was also swapping between 3 "main" idle sets after casts:

Pure DT (mix of PDT/MDT).
Pure MD (cap MDT and then stack MDB).
Shield skill/DT (During MS/HF/etc).

So when not casting/etc, I was in one of those builds.

As for Valhalla head/body, I start off with that in my DT builds, but swap to V.head/af3+2 body as my enmity goes up.

As for the above troll comment of "why do it this way":

Why not? We kill it in 30 seconds the other way and it's not like AV is something to brag about anymore. We have a blast fighting it the old way and it's nice to see what your job can do.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-13 16:28:33
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Just to note for some Pld's out there looking for some gear options:

You can get up to 7-8% Spell Interupt on Mbody now, with the bonus of -DT.

PDT + SI is actually pretty common and M.tatters are pretty cheap in comparison.

This brings a good Pld's SI set up to 77% with merits, which is damn respectable.

You can also get MDT on the M.legs, Fast Cast and Cure Potency on the M.head (nice cure swap piece), and regen+3 on the feet.

I personally went for Fast Cast + MDB5 on Blood Legs to save some inventory (don't have to carry around Iron Ram Hose anymore) and am loving the extra 7% SI in my casting sets from M.body <3.

Since Valhalla is Rank 3/4 this Mog Bonanza though, a lot of Pld's without good other options will be able to at least guarantee a head and have a good shot at the body.
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By Phoenix.Deboro 2011-06-13 16:38:26
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how can you guarantee a head? would need 100 marbles? 10 mules if the helm is even transferable?
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-13 20:10:14
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Phoenix.Deboro said:
how can you guarantee a head? would need 100 marbles? 10 mules if the helm is even transferable?

Pretty sure the set is transferable between mules, and 100 marbles isn't much compared to what some people do lol.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-21 10:23:28
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Went to update this with some more information and it seems like original post got cut into pieces, uncertain what caused that..

I'll talk to a mod and see if there is any way to recover it, but the trade studies, gear sets, enmity links, etc all got removed.

Hopefully I don't have to re-type all that crap..
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-06-22 10:58:58
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Re-added the spellcast file, but after I spent about an hour re-adding in the other information the same editing issue happened and deleted all the work I had done.. So I'm going to take a break so I don't throw something through a window.
 Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2011-06-22 13:51:02
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Just saw the picture and want to comment that my fellow Caladbolg drk is rocking a 6 hit build. It is nice to see ppl actually doing that. I believe a 7 hit is the superior build, but still, not many ppl has the 6 hit option since Aurum Cuirass is a problem for alot of ppl.
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By Blazed1979 2011-06-23 22:25:41
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Im going to do that GS next when ochain90 is finished just because it looks like something Auron would be swinging.
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By Cerberus.Lightvision 2011-06-30 01:11:04
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Caladbolg is a nice toy for PLD and really fun rocking out on PLD/SAM.

back to the Aegis Vs. Ochain thing, imo the 2 shield are situational imo, if ya have aegis why not make an ochain as well?
use Aegis for somehting that is heavy on the magic attacks
use ochain when something that hits fast and hard

there you get best of both worlds, but tbh with the updates coming to relics it can possibly put aegis on top of ochain.

but when ya think about it people make an ochain over aegis because its quicker to make if you dont have the gil to blow on an aegis. or hope to win an aegis in mog bonanza.

and with your tests with shield block rate with relic/empy shield it dont help those that cant ger help to make these. somone asked to try get a guage on a metric syster for shield skil to block rate, would it not be better to use a non relic/empy shield for this? and use different sizes?

personally i want both shield
[+]
necroskull Necro Bump Detected! [42 days between previous and next post]
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-08-11 08:03:57
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Did you guys nail down the dmg reduction on blocks for Ochain(90) and Aegis(90) before SDB and hands? I'm reading conflicting reports over a few different threads.

Any idea how Vit plays a role in taking critical hit dmg since the patch?
 Cerberus.Lightvision
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By Cerberus.Lightvision 2011-08-24 10:00:40
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@Neosutra: i looked at your SC script meny times while i make a new one for my PLD, like Vaness said it was really confusing, i found it very hard to follow all your groups and sets and i am very familiar with spellcast.

when i was looking at your MDT/MDB set and took me a while to find but i am guessing this is it
Quote:
<group name="magic_down" inherit="shared">
<set name="idle">
<head>Valhalla Helm</head>
<neck>Twilight Torque</neck>
<lear>Creed Earring</lear>
<rear>Ethereal Earring</rear>
<body>Creed Cuirass +2</body>
<hands>Iron Ram Dastanas</hands>
<rring>Shadow Ring</rring>
<lring>Dark Ring</lring>
<back>Lamia Mantle +1</back>
<legs>Blood cuisses</legs>
<waist>Nierenschutz</waist>
<feet>Askar Gambieras</feet>
</set>

seing as you have one or still do AV come the question, why no Minerva's Ring???

i was looking at the shell 4, 5, ra5 caps
Shell 4 cap = 21.9% meaning need 29% to cap
Shell 5 cap = 24.2% meaning need 26% to cap
Shellra 5 cap = 27.34% meaning you need 23% to cap

so i basically put 3 sets together which caps MDT and allows to maximize MDB

for when WHM casts Shellra5 with capped merits (allows for MDB+27)
Code
<set name = "MDT_Capped_Shellra_V" >
	<head>Noesis Helm</head>
	<neck>Twilight Torque</neck>
	<lear>Ethereal Earring</lear>
	<rear>Brutal Earring</rear>
	<body>Creed Cuirass +2</body>
	<hands>Medb's Gauntlets</hands>
	<lring>Minerva's Ring</lring>
	<rring>Unfettered Ring</rring>
	<back>Salvus Mantle</back>
	<waist>Creed Baudrier</waist>
	<legs>Iron Ram Hose</legs>
	<feet>Iron Ram Greaves</feet>
</set>


for if only shell 5 (allows for MDB+23)
Code
<set name = "MDT_Shell_V" Baseset="MDT_Capped_Shellra_V" >
	<waist>Nierenschutz</waist>
</set>


and for if you have to settle for Shell4 (allows for MDB+21)
Code
<set name = "MDT_Shell_IV"  Baseset="MDT_Capped_Shellra_V" >
	<rring>Dark Ring</rring>
	<waist>Nierenschutz</waist>
</set>



as you can see with the capped Shellra5 you can cap MDT with only 3 items Creed Cuirass +2 Twilight Torque and Minerva's ring allowing you to get more MDB in your set

granted you do have aegis, not everyone is, also i am not saying your doing it wrong but it maybe something to concider about the shell caps, also your set has about +11-14 MDB

i am also kinda confused to why you still use HP- items for cure cheats since there is alot more HP+ that you can use instead:-
Code
<set name = "HP_Max" >
	<head>Hero's Galea</head>
	<neck>Invidia Torque</neck>
	<lear>Ethereal Earring</lear>
	<rear>Creed Earring</rear>
	<body>Creed Cuirass +2</body>
	<hands>Valor Gauntlets</hands>
	<lring>Bomb Queen Ring</lring>
	<rring>Meridian Ring</rring>
	<back>Strendu Mantle</back>
	<waist>Creed Baudrier</waist>
	<legs>Creed Cuisses +2</legs>
	<feet>Dornen Schuhs</feet>
</set>

This set puts me at 2100 HP and my TP set puts me at 1686 HP just seems mor efficient to put HP up further and then after cast go to HP and you can spam cures without needing HP- gear, this set also allows more room for if you get weakend status from VW NM,

if your curious about my SC xml then can find it here >> Lightvision PLD Spellcast
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-24 10:06:25
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Minerva's is inventory -1 for minimal (if any) gains; using HP- gear means your final cure can use more enmity+ gear, curepot gear, etc instead.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-08-24 10:10:25
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Cerberus.Lightvision said: »
i am also kinda confused to why you still use HP- items for cure cheats since there is alot more HP+ that you can use instead:-
HP down gear for a cure kit allows you to use more enmity gear in your actual cure. This makes cure kitting more effective. If you can net the majority of a cure kit in hp down gear then you can cure in full enmity and get more out of each one and thus waste less time.

Not that curing is good enmity anymore but sometimes you can't chant something in the face.

Edit: What nightfyre said.
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By Cerberus.Lightvision 2011-08-24 13:00:28
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Minerva's is inventory -1 for minimal (if any) gains.

so your saying that there is very little to no gain between
MDB+27 and MDB+11 ?

thats a gain of 16 MDB

think in terms of non Aegis PLDs when you think about what i am asking
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
using HP- gear means your final cure can use more enmity+ gear, curepot gear, etc instead.

if you compare Neosutra's midcast cure set with my max HP set in terms of final enmity when cure goes off

my cure set Enmity+42
Code
<head>Hero's Galea</head>
<neck>Invidia Torque</neck>
<lear>Ethereal Earring</lear>
<rear>Creed Earring</rear>
<body>Creed Cuirass +2</body>
<hands>Valor Gauntlets</hands>
<lring>Bomb Queen Ring</lring>
<rring>Meridian Ring</rring>
<back>Strendu Mantle</back>
<waist>Creed Baudrier</waist>
<legs>Creed Cuisses +2</legs>
<feet>Dornen Schuhs</feet>


Neosutra Midcast cure set, Enmity+25
Code
<head>Adaman barbuta</head>
<lear>Creed Earring</lear>
<rear>Hospitaler Earring</rear>
<body>Creed Cuirass +2</body>
<rring>Bomb Queen Ring</rring>
<lring>Meridian Ring</lring>
<neck>Ritter Gorget</neck>
<waist>Creed Baudrier</waist>
<feet>Karasutengu</feet>


it would shows that i get more enmity using my cure set than Neosutra does with thiers, my set has 17 more enmity, not counting the enmity from me using kaiser shield but i did count the enmity from merits. if i was to count the enmity from kaiser shield then that would put my cure set to 21 enmity more than Neosutra's
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-24 13:49:50
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Don't kid yourself, you're not gaining 16 MDB from 2-3 MDT. The set you quoted has 31% MDT, uses hands with one less MDB than yours, and uses Shadow Ring instead of lolUnfettered Ring. There's a variety of things at work that are causing him to have that much less MDB and lack of Minerva's is among the least of them.

If we do a theoretical update on the gearset that accounts for Shell(ra) V...



Throw in Ataractic Solea if you have them, Noesis vs AF3+2 is your call (I'd use the latter personally but whatever). Trading Dark Ring for Minerva's lets you cap with plain old Shell V, a valid point, but so does using Coral Gauntlets +1, Coral Greaves +1, or Askar Gambieras, and you're gaining 13-16% PDT in exchange for 3 MDB with those swaps. Otherwise, it just lets you drop the Merman's Earring, bringing us back to neutral inventory (so I was technically wrong there) in exchange for 13-14% PDT during MDT swaps.

So yeah, nowhere near 16 MDB. If you were going all crazy baller absorption/nullification mode with



then sure, you could probably spin some kind of advantage for Minerva's, but I don't think that's actually a good idea.

EDIT:
Quote:
cure stuff
He has more curepot gear than you do, so while you gain more enmity per HP gained he may cure for more hate overall and is certainly curing in a safer manner if his HP is below 100%. Also, are you fairly accounting for other differences in gear selection? Karasutengu etc
 Cerberus.Lightvision
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By Cerberus.Lightvision 2011-08-24 14:42:33
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well if i had shadow ring then of course i would use it its why i use unfettering ring. they have an Aegis so there is the obvious advantage but like i said think in terms of non aegis PLDs.

when a mob is casting its not hitting so the PDT point is not valid, but my set does have 15 mdb (sorry miss read waist item) not 2-3, and i just dont see the validity in the point of PDT when it come to MDT set.

the slots where i gain the extra MDB while caping MDT at same time with capped shellra5 are:
Head: Noesis Helm(+4)
back: Salvus Mantle(+1)
hands: Medb's Gauntlets(+1)
Waist: Creed Baudrier(+4)
feet: Iron Ram Greaves(+3)
Ring: Unfettered Ring(+2)

Minerva's allows you to cap MDT easier so you can then go on stacking MDB, it is a magic damage reduction set after all

as for the cure stuff, i know they have more cure pot than i do but as you said i gain more enmity per HP gained making it a stronger cure cheat set, is that not what the point of a cure cheat is?

i do not use my max HP set when i am at 95% HP or less
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-24 14:54:17
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Quote:
well if i had shadow ring then of course i would use it its why i use unfettering ring. they have an Aegis so there is the obvious advantage but like i said think in terms of non aegis PLDs.
Aegis or no Aegis doesn't make a difference anymore in terms of your other gear since it's able to surpass the MDT cap. I'm not factoring in Aegis at all here.
Quote:
Minerva's allows you to cap MDT easier so you can then go on stacking MDB, it is a magic damage reduction set after all
You already said that, now go look at how marginal the trades for a Shellra V optimized set actually are. Best you can get is dropping Merman's Earring for a non-magic-related stat, unless you want to carry an INT+ earring. Like I said, at best you're back to neutral inventory in exchange for a loss of PDT, and that is worth considering since you'll occasionally get whacked in MDT gear.
Quote:
as for the cure stuff, i know they have more cure pot than i do but as you said i gain more enmity per HP gained making it a stronger cure cheat set, is that not what the point of a cure cheat is?
You're not reading my posts at all, are you? The extra HP cured nullifies almost all of your gains in terms of enmity generated, and the rest can be chalked up to slots like the feet where he went for an entirely different approach altogether.
 Cerberus.Lightvision
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By Cerberus.Lightvision 2011-08-24 15:17:05
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432 with Enmity+25 Vs 404 with Enmity+46

this is the difference in the 2 cure sets its not that much in terms in the amount of HP cured and still puts my set ahead in terms on the enmity generation by a considerable amount.
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By xeca 2011-08-24 18:26:33
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neo Just wondering if you guys killed AV with out zerg yet we also got him down to like 40% and then swich to zerg set cause he just got nasty and had more dds then healers so was quick and easy option at that point. i think we will do it again with like 3-4 dds and we have 3 aegis plds and 3 ochain plds we will toss at him and see how it is ... kinda getting bored of the /zerg everything method SE needs to add more NMs that take a bit longer to kill.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-24 18:34:39
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xeca said: »
neo Just wondering if you guys killed AV with out zerg yet we also got him down to like 40% and then swich to zerg set cause he just got nasty and had more dds then healers so was quick and easy option at that point. i think we will do it again with like 3-4 dds and we have 3 aegis plds and 3 ochain plds we will toss at him and see how it is ... kinda getting bored of the /zerg everything method SE needs to add more NMs that take a bit longer to kill.
He posted a SS of them killing nonzerg a while back, don't remember much in the way of details though.

EDIT: Oh, it's on this page. Just scroll up.
Cerberus.Lightvision said: »
432 with Enmity+25 Vs 404 with Enmity+46

this is the difference in the 2 cure sets its not that much in terms in the amount of HP cured and still puts my set ahead in terms on the enmity generation by a considerable amount.
You really are bad at this whole reading thing. The set you posted from his xml lacks hands/legs/back so there may be more +enmity involved than what it shows (too lazy to dig through the xml right now) and the feet are -interrupt instead of HP/enmity.
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-08-24 20:36:28
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Agreed on the Minerva's Nightfyre. We had quick run by discussion on this in another thread.

Also you pointed out your not taking physical damage if there casting. I don't think it's worth trying to get in and out of that set with perfect timing and the inventory -1 of minerva's. Multiple mobs , dual boxing , distractions , 1/2 paying attention. If there are few melee on it its probably going to unload tp right after the spell. Or it leaves you stunned/petrified/terror'd and that 13% pdt (compared to a 5/4 pdt/mdt drk ring) means more than your 3 mdb.

How would picking up 3% mdt on a ring slot make a difference in more than 3 mdt? Looking at a from a distance that doesn't even start to make sense. Any slot you use mdt for you can't even equal it with mdb much less get an increase.

@Nightfyre I use Af3 helm for mdt set also. If it's serious enough I need the 4mdb I probably need the mp also. (and inventory)

I don't know about you guys but I'm constantly making sacrifices for inventory. It's also annoying farming ***78/80
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