Gempig said:
watched them fight it, didnt see any rules being broke just a good strat
=o
Apathy Getting Attacked For Killing PW
Apathy getting attacked for killing PW
If logging hate was illegal i would've been banned a long time ago for having to log hate when someone cfh on kirin ; ;
Surreal said:
If logging hate was illegal i would've been banned a long time ago for having to log hate when someone cfh on kirin ; ;
Or on any occasion. The best example is soloing blm thats all there is to say about this matter.
have you ever zoned a mob or a link in xp? then you too have exploited.
Udasai said:
have you ever zoned a mob or a link in xp? then you too have exploited.
Why do you think they depop now. They use to not (oh the days of mass MPKs at the zone of Selbina XD).
It's a good thing high tier ZNMs take place in their own special spot. That would suck to just be passing by when an LS wipes to Hydra, Cerb or Khimy's big brothers or PW-- "Why hello thar.." quickly followed by death xD
I'm not saying logging hate is illegal but at the same time they did (until SE says otherwise) was exploit the game mechanics. Congratulations for being the first to beat PW, I wont say it didn't take skill to beat him, however I am not as impressed as I will be once either SE says its proper procedure for fighting PW or someone beats PW the way SE intended. As of now I view this as an exploit no different from wall glitching AV. Congrats again on being the first to beat PW regardless.
How about... If SE had wanted us to be unable to dump hate by logging out, they would have made it so the mob still hates you when you log back in. Sure, you could decide not to log back in, but... then you wouldn't kill the NM >.> and you basically would have to NOT play for a while until some friend sends you a POL message to say the mob is gone which is beyond awkward...This is not an exploit, it is game mechanics that have never been modified since 2002. And whatever SE wants to allow us to do or not do, it is their game, and they decide the rules. Just read them, and if something seems unclear to you, ASK THEM to clarify. But trying to tell them that they are wrong about their own rules in their own game is just foolish, not to say "dumb".
The people got banned because they didn't ask. Just ask, don't be afraid. But wait, as soon as something is not giving YOU an advantage over others, that's when you feel like bitchin about it? Very typical of most humans, can't blame you, I'm one too.
The people got banned because they didn't ask. Just ask, don't be afraid. But wait, as soon as something is not giving YOU an advantage over others, that's when you feel like bitchin about it? Very typical of most humans, can't blame you, I'm one too.
It never hurts to ask about something you have any (no matter how slight) feelings of doubt about. The worst that can happen is GMs will tell you not to do it, and would most likely appreciate the fact you went to them first before milking something questionable dry not knowing if it would be your last days of logging in or not.
Fyekuhi said:
I'm not saying logging hate is illegal but at the same time they did (until SE says otherwise) was exploit the game mechanics. Congratulations for being the first to beat PW, I wont say it didn't take skill to beat him, however I am not as impressed as I will be once either SE says its proper procedure for fighting PW or someone beats PW the way SE intended. As of now I view this as an exploit no different from wall glitching AV. Congrats again on being the first to beat PW regardless.
Whats proper anymore? Whne you cant use the mechs to get ahead which is by gear or by skill that they have made themselves. I cant say that you can exploit it but theres a fine line in your cheating and not. SE wants us to have a difficult time with such high lvl mobs so it will keep us from being super uber in way less time then it would originally take. Besides the draq backs of drop % and other things that takes presence, they dont want it to be easy although not make them immortal. We have brilliant players that come up with strates all the time, and they come up with all these thigs that no one else see's. If SE wants to change the logout function then kewl, but that kills how blm solo's because they get pts like a mofo (sarcasm). We shouldnt think of exploiting something that they have brought in themselves, SE brought in the hella hard mob and apathy killed it within legal boundries.
Just cause someone killed it with a simple tool we should call "Wolf" or cheats and what not.
Psyence said:
How about... If SE had wanted us to be unable to dump hate by logging out, they would have made it so the mob still hates you when you log back in.
That would be incredibly difficult to implement from a programming standpoint, I would imagine. I'm under the impression that SE would instead make it impossible to log off while the character has hate.
That is, if they cared.
Artemicion said:
It never hurts to ask about something you have any (no matter how slight) feelings of doubt about. The worst that can happen is GMs will tell you not to do it, and would most likely appreciate the fact you went to them first before milking something questionable dry not knowing if it would be your last days of logging in or not.
Its hard to say what the gms would say. The wont give out any specific information and they always tell you to use the suggestion portion. I mean i asked them how to successfully tell a ToD sonce i have heard 2 ways. They wont say and i have also asked them whats Serkets rage time since it says 30min on one and 20mins on another and i got nothing. So its hard to tell what the gms are acually gonna say when you ask.
Narrubia said:
Psyence said:
How about... If SE had wanted us to be unable to dump hate by logging out, they would have made it so the mob still hates you when you log back in.
That would be incredibly difficult to implement from a programming standpoint, I would imagine. I'm under the impression that SE would instead make it impossible to log off while the character has hate.
That is, if they cared.
Hard to implement perhaps, but if they had wanted to make the game like this in the first place, I don't believe it would be called "implementing"... Game has over 8GB of data and none of this is FMV... It must have been complicated as hell to program, they made it the way they felt they should.
As you seem to have said, they don't care. I'm pretty sure you're right about that!! :))
Fact is also the banning was made to keep the game fair for everyone, because some people were getting stuff easily that others had worked hard in order to get (how it's meant to be when it comes to relics). On the other hand, making it illegal to dump hate by logging out ONLY when killing ONE specific NM in the game... Well that would not be fair... It is legal to log out to avoid death, the game gives your a 30 seconds penalty. That's it. You die or you survive.
To everyone who got banned, I bring this interesting quote from a movie I saw recently with my girlfriend. He was talking about when you grow old and die, which is a bit more dramatic than being banned from FF11 but I think it's well suited for the situation.
"You can be as mad as a mad dog at the way things went. You could swear, curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go."
- Curious Case of Benjamin Button
:/
I don't know. I just see SE implementing something simpler than log-off hate retention. If they used a system like that, they would have to work out how claim would be handled, and I imagine that they wouldn't allow a hate-logger to log back in to find a claimed mob, that they can't do anything about, having hate on them. I can see isolated cases being used as an MPK devise.
Of course, I'm going on about this because I think it's an interesting topic. Hate-logging is obviously a legit practice, as SE hasn't done anything about it over all these years. So you're totally right, I'm just bringing up a sub-point that I felt like expanding on ^^;
Of course, I'm going on about this because I think it's an interesting topic. Hate-logging is obviously a legit practice, as SE hasn't done anything about it over all these years. So you're totally right, I'm just bringing up a sub-point that I felt like expanding on ^^;
Psyence said:
Hard to implement perhaps, but if they had wanted to make the game like this in the first place, I don't believe it would be called "implementing"... Game has over 8GB of data and none of this is FMV... It must have been complicated as hell to program, they made it the way they felt they should.
8GB of unoptimized data I bet, that's kinda why a 6 year old game can suck up that much CPU resources.
As to prevent log off, can do something very simple and very effective. You log off = you're kicked out. Exactly like when you solo limbus. If you get d/c, you're out. Kinda harsh but would prevent any abuse. SE obviously don't want to do that anyway and that's better for us :)
Psyence said:
Narrubia said:
Psyence said:
How about... If SE had wanted us to be unable to dump hate by logging out, they would have made it so the mob still hates you when you log back in.
That would be incredibly difficult to implement from a programming standpoint, I would imagine. I'm under the impression that SE would instead make it impossible to log off while the character has hate.
That is, if they cared.
Hard to implement perhaps, but if they had wanted to make the game like this in the first place, I don't believe it would be called "implementing"... Game has over 8GB of data and none of this is FMV... It must have been complicated as hell to program, they made it the way they felt they should.
As you seem to have said, they don't care. I'm pretty sure you're right about that!! :))
Fact is also the banning was made to keep the game fair for everyone, because some people were getting stuff easily that others had worked hard in order to get (how it's meant to be when it comes to relics). On the other hand, making it illegal to dump hate by logging out ONLY when killing ONE specific NM in the game... Well that would not be fair... It is legal to log out to avoid death, the game gives your a 30 seconds penalty. That's it. You die or you survive.
To everyone who got banned, I bring this interesting quote from a movie I saw recently with my girlfriend. He was talking about when you grow old and die, which is a bit more dramatic than being banned from FF11 but I think it's well suited for the situation.
"You can be as mad as a mad dog at the way things went. You could swear, curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go."
- Curious Case of Benjamin Button
:/
Have there been bannings?
Antipika said:
As to prevent log off, can do something very simple and very effective. You log off = you're kicked out. Exactly like when you solo limbus. If you get d/c, you're out. Kinda harsh but would prevent any abuse. SE obviously don't want to do that anyway and that's better for us :)
Dear God... This would cause the Rodney King riots of Vana'Diel.
I've been reading this while camping Alky, and I see all the points about the TOS and such, but none of yall really considered the strategy viewpoint of this beyond the logging out.
Every single fight (except soloin') all boils down to hate control. Let's talk Kirin. As soon as he spawns all the mini-gods, you don't see everyone go *** crazy on him in zerg fashion. This would more than likely end in a wipe and total failure for such a tried-and-tested mob. The same with Sea: Jailer of Love, Fortitude, Faith, etc. Sure, zerging might work with very skilled/merited/geared players, but let's be honest here.
Now if you take that perspective for those mobs and convert it over to logging hate on PW, then in essence, it's the exact same thing, just using a different method to control the hate. In my honest opinion, I see no wrong is their use of game mechanics. Technically, the game is supposed to wipe hate upon logging, therefore, it's in the game mechanics and is being used in a different way. It would be different if the game didn't already naturally do that.
Another thing I would like to mention, just cause you read about PW on Wiki... doesn't mean you know anything even remotely close about PW, or the way Apathy did it. I have never seen PW, so I won't claim to know absolutely anything about him, but some of these people that wrote the articles, I'm more than certain, know next to nothing about PW. Yet, they seem to somehow ridicule the methods tried against him. I just find it hypocritical and downright a waste of time. Not everything on Wiki is 100% true folks. It's just that, a wiki. Formed by people through a consensus.
And about this being somehow related to the banning for the "duping of Salvage"... it is possible, but I honestly wouldn't read more into it than you have to. The post itself didn't even seem revised, lol
Every single fight (except soloin') all boils down to hate control. Let's talk Kirin. As soon as he spawns all the mini-gods, you don't see everyone go *** crazy on him in zerg fashion. This would more than likely end in a wipe and total failure for such a tried-and-tested mob. The same with Sea: Jailer of Love, Fortitude, Faith, etc. Sure, zerging might work with very skilled/merited/geared players, but let's be honest here.
Now if you take that perspective for those mobs and convert it over to logging hate on PW, then in essence, it's the exact same thing, just using a different method to control the hate. In my honest opinion, I see no wrong is their use of game mechanics. Technically, the game is supposed to wipe hate upon logging, therefore, it's in the game mechanics and is being used in a different way. It would be different if the game didn't already naturally do that.
Another thing I would like to mention, just cause you read about PW on Wiki... doesn't mean you know anything even remotely close about PW, or the way Apathy did it. I have never seen PW, so I won't claim to know absolutely anything about him, but some of these people that wrote the articles, I'm more than certain, know next to nothing about PW. Yet, they seem to somehow ridicule the methods tried against him. I just find it hypocritical and downright a waste of time. Not everything on Wiki is 100% true folks. It's just that, a wiki. Formed by people through a consensus.
And about this being somehow related to the banning for the "duping of Salvage"... it is possible, but I honestly wouldn't read more into it than you have to. The post itself didn't even seem revised, lol
Liminality said:
And about this being somehow related to the banning for the "duping of Salvage"... it is possible, but I honestly wouldn't read more into it than you have to. The post itself didn't even seem revised, lol
The guy who originally posted that made the comparison himself. I'm not going to go and search for it (because there's like a bajillion comments to go through lol) but I've seen some rebuttals to other comments where he says something along the lines of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "if SE is gonna ban people for taking advantage of an exploit like duping gear then they need to ban people for exploiting PW by logging out..." and how SE condones the one and not the other, and that's *** and blah blah.
Personally, I think he's just butthurt that either A)He didn't think of it first, B)He, or his friends, were banned for duping and he's bitter, or C)He's just one of those people that can't let anyone brag about something without saying how much it sucks and they cheated, or he doesn't have the means to do it himself. Honestly, it's probably a combination of all three...
Xxnumbertwoxx said:
The guy who originally posted that made the comparison himself. I'm not going to go and search for it (because there's like a bajillion comments to go through lol) but I've seen some rebuttals to other comments where he says something along the lines of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "if SE is gonna ban people for taking advantage of an exploit like duping gear then they need to ban people for exploiting PW by logging out..." and how SE condones the one and not the other, and that's *** and blah blah.
I personally don't think Banning would be necessary. Like I said before in my eyes as of now it is an exploit but I feel it is completely different from duping items. When you Dupe an item you are creating an imbalance in the drop system, or you can look at it as you are creating an item that SE didn't intend there to be 2+ of at a particular time. All I was stating before is that in my opinion its an exploit of game mechanics and until SE says its a proper way to defeat PW I am not as impressed by the win as I would otherwise be. Now I'm sure SE probably wont make a statement about it but more likely they would change the zone to where the fight would take place in a BCNM type area and would boot you from the zone if you D/C or /logout. NOW if SE takes no such action as to prevent it or create a new area to fight it, I'm sure that means SE is OK with this particular way of fighting it. But as with many other things in this game I am sure there is a way to avoid the Astral Flow, something similar to performing /kneel or /heal to Odin to avoid his special ability Zantetsuken.
completely and utterly outrageous even the monkeys @ SE know logging out is a legit form of hate control... some ppl just make me sit back and go wow. just goes to show how many ppl do so little when they play this game they get banned and got nothing else to do but try to make others as unpleasant as them
You know what would solve this? moar bacon
Korpg said:
If you managed to get everyone banned from Apathy because of this, then you will get everyone banned who had to sleep a mob or link, then /logout to erase hate.
Because by your definition of what Apathy did, those who had to sleep/logout so they wouldn't die and had to HP and lose all that exp did the exact same thing as Apathy. There is no difference between the two.
Because by your definition of what Apathy did, those who had to sleep/logout so they wouldn't die and had to HP and lose all that exp did the exact same thing as Apathy. There is no difference between the two.
^ This
Korpg pretty much nailed it all.
Tbest said:
Wooooodum said:
You are an idiot.
^ and that.
It's basically what Korpg said, but using true-strike words.
I envy your way with words Woo! ROFL.
Xxnumbertwoxx said:
I love the comments to that article on blogger, this very first one:
Made me lol ^^
hogie48 said:
Although i do agree im some terms as to they WAY they killed it was not totally normal and it was not killed as SE had intended to do it, you have a VERY LARGE amount of sand in your vagina.
Made me lol ^^
Oh and this one too.
LoL.
oshi~ i had to log hate..; ;
Obviously nobody should be banned because of that, they would have to ban too many people. I think it can't be changed because it would be way too complicated to find a way to avoid players from logging out when they have hate. BUT logging out hate is obviously abusing game mechanics. I do it, you do it, my granny is doing it. Doesn't mean it is a fair way to do things.
Jailer of love(being one of the "biggest" NM in game) drop only 4 items, one of them(Novia earring) is giving enmity-7 and cost a fairly high price. Mahatma Cape(enmity -6) is one of the rarest item in the game and goes for a price most people would never be able to pay. I give these 2 examples to show the great importance accorded to Enmity- in this game.
Imagine if there would be a rare gear that would give the trait "get no enmity at all", that would probably be the most expensive item in the game and it would be way too godly. Logging out and logging back in the middle of a fight is giving exactly that trait with the disadvantage that you can't cure or help your party for a minute(which is not too bad, can kite for a minute). Again even though we all use it, if you have a minimum of common sense you can all tell that it is a way to "cheat" the game.
I still congratulate Apathy for killing PW with this strategy because this is how most of us play this game and the servers would probably go more empty if they would not allow us to do this anymore.
Nonetheless, I understand that some people can be mad at SE for promoting on their website the killing of PW which have been made using a game mechanic flaw. They ban people for using one of them and some weeks later they congratulate another bunch of people for killing a NM using a flaw. Yes it's a lesser flaw and exploit but it is still an obvious one.
Biggest proof that SE do not agree with the logout technic?
Zhayolm Remnants!!!
To pop first floor Poroggo Madame nobody can use any of the cell you receive till you clear one of the 4 path and kill Poroggo Gent. The way most people were doing it before was that ONE person would not use any cell at all then everyone else would logout after killing Poroggo Gent and that would make Poroggo Madame pop.
In the most recent update they changed it so you can't no longer pop Madame by logging out and leaving one person who used no cell. Why? Cause they judged the way people were doing it was abusing game mechanics. Why it is so different from losing hate on a NM? It is not.
So in fact SE promoted the victory(using game mechanic flaw) of a LS VS a big NM right after banning a bunch of people for using another one. One of the reason they might have put the defeat of PW by this LS on their web page is the bad publicity they got on Yahoo when a LS fought PW for 18 hours. They will for sure care about their image before they care about anything else.
Asking for Apathy to be banned is way too harsh but putting it on their web page is in my opinion, very questionable.
Jailer of love(being one of the "biggest" NM in game) drop only 4 items, one of them(Novia earring) is giving enmity-7 and cost a fairly high price. Mahatma Cape(enmity -6) is one of the rarest item in the game and goes for a price most people would never be able to pay. I give these 2 examples to show the great importance accorded to Enmity- in this game.
Imagine if there would be a rare gear that would give the trait "get no enmity at all", that would probably be the most expensive item in the game and it would be way too godly. Logging out and logging back in the middle of a fight is giving exactly that trait with the disadvantage that you can't cure or help your party for a minute(which is not too bad, can kite for a minute). Again even though we all use it, if you have a minimum of common sense you can all tell that it is a way to "cheat" the game.
I still congratulate Apathy for killing PW with this strategy because this is how most of us play this game and the servers would probably go more empty if they would not allow us to do this anymore.
Nonetheless, I understand that some people can be mad at SE for promoting on their website the killing of PW which have been made using a game mechanic flaw. They ban people for using one of them and some weeks later they congratulate another bunch of people for killing a NM using a flaw. Yes it's a lesser flaw and exploit but it is still an obvious one.
Biggest proof that SE do not agree with the logout technic?
Zhayolm Remnants!!!
To pop first floor Poroggo Madame nobody can use any of the cell you receive till you clear one of the 4 path and kill Poroggo Gent. The way most people were doing it before was that ONE person would not use any cell at all then everyone else would logout after killing Poroggo Gent and that would make Poroggo Madame pop.
In the most recent update they changed it so you can't no longer pop Madame by logging out and leaving one person who used no cell. Why? Cause they judged the way people were doing it was abusing game mechanics. Why it is so different from losing hate on a NM? It is not.
So in fact SE promoted the victory(using game mechanic flaw) of a LS VS a big NM right after banning a bunch of people for using another one. One of the reason they might have put the defeat of PW by this LS on their web page is the bad publicity they got on Yahoo when a LS fought PW for 18 hours. They will for sure care about their image before they care about anything else.
Asking for Apathy to be banned is way too harsh but putting it on their web page is in my opinion, very questionable.
Having - Enmity gear doesn't keep you from getting killed if you have any sort of hate at all. You get hate just by breathing with some NMs. And Astral Flow WILL hit you REGARDLESS of if you even did anything or not as long as you ARE IN THE SAME PARTY/ALLIANCE as the people the Astral Flow is aimed at.
Meaning, it doesn't matter if you have -3000 Enmity, you will die from Astral Flow.
SE was promoting the fact that their "impossible to beat in 2 hours" monster was actually beaten in 2 hours. I doubt they even noticed the method used to beat it. Try to keep watch of a 100,000 people at the same time, and you will see that things go unnoticed.
Meaning, it doesn't matter if you have -3000 Enmity, you will die from Astral Flow.
SE was promoting the fact that their "impossible to beat in 2 hours" monster was actually beaten in 2 hours. I doubt they even noticed the method used to beat it. Try to keep watch of a 100,000 people at the same time, and you will see that things go unnoticed.
I was just talking about the importance accorded to enmity in this game, I know you would still get hit by astral flow and you are right, I don't think they had an in-depth look at how they exactly killed it.
If you get hate, blame the tank. Not your fault you are too uber for the mob (case in point: BLM vs Genbu, its always the tank's fault that I get hate from a well-placed Burst II that does 2k+ damage, curse them) :D
I am pretty sure Apathy could care less about what all the immature communauty think of how unlegit they are. Now wait a minute and give you some time to breath.
This is SE game, the world doesn't go around you. They decided and even posted their action on their official forums as the first LS ever that ever killed it. If you can't understand that, you are the problem, not them.
Oh...I get it; you are still hurt because 1000 players got banned over last month...Or was it because they nerfed your powerfull 93% haste and you can't kill NMs anymore? Or because you cannot simply add more blm to kill anything in this game?
Get over it already and stop acting like a child that's trying to find flaws in their parent behavior just because they got punished and they want their revenge.
Now tell me what did happen to the communauty that was saying constructive post instead of all those crying baby about nothing and anything that's ending with "BAN THEM snifsnif!"
This is SE game, the world doesn't go around you. They decided and even posted their action on their official forums as the first LS ever that ever killed it. If you can't understand that, you are the problem, not them.
Oh...I get it; you are still hurt because 1000 players got banned over last month...Or was it because they nerfed your powerfull 93% haste and you can't kill NMs anymore? Or because you cannot simply add more blm to kill anything in this game?
Get over it already and stop acting like a child that's trying to find flaws in their parent behavior just because they got punished and they want their revenge.
Now tell me what did happen to the communauty that was saying constructive post instead of all those crying baby about nothing and anything that's ending with "BAN THEM snifsnif!"
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