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 Fenrir.Mankey
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-25 02:50:17
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Ramuh.Dasva said:
Ifrit.Eikechi said:
Asura.Buddhsie said:
Mankey your argument makes no sense.. given a high haste situation it affects dnc just as much as any other job (should be obvious >_>).
lets take this statement and break that down a second... ok a dagger's delay is like 201 at most.. so 2x 201 daggers with dual wield is 402 delay yes? now which number is greater.. 80% (haste cap) of 402 or 80% of 464 (new higher delay GKs) or 528 (scythe..used plaga scythe for this delay example...) ...the answer is the 80% of the higher delay weapons.... so yes it DOES affect them more....
Also might add depending on what enhance samba does dnc can only hit 78% haste and that is super duper buffed and pimped. More buffs than he is ever likely to have outside of zerg. Like 2hring brd + haste spell + full gear haste + haste samba. And the relic drk he said couldn't tp as fast can get 60% haste solo for limited time.

But let's do realistic. Say just a brd giving double march for about 20% and haste spell and dnc samba for 10%.

Pimped out that would put dnc at 70. On the other hand a pimped out relic drk in that same pt can hit 78. Incase you are wondering how a relic drk can easily hit gear haste cap without a belt and Haste belt counts as magical stacking with other magical hastes and is rather easy to make/buy. Of course the drk could also just throw on alot more store tp too
Every Hasso job can reach haste cap now fairly easily, Apoc was only said because he previously mentioned it
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 02:52:43
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Ifrit.Eikechi said:
Asura.Buddhsie said:
Mankey your argument makes no sense.. given a high haste situation it affects dnc just as much as any other job (should be obvious >_>).



lets take this statement and break that down a second... ok a dagger's delay is like 201 at most.. so 2x 201 daggers with dual wield is 402 delay yes? now which number is greater.. 80% (haste cap) of 402 or 80% of 464 (new higher delay GKs) or 528 (scythe..used plaga scythe for this delay example...) ...the answer is the 80% of the higher delay weapons.... so yes it DOES affect them more....
are you not including the 45% dual wield reduction dnc has normally?
which makes the delay of both attacks 290~


Fenrir.Mankey said:
Ifrit.Eikechi said:
Asura.Buddhsie said:
Mankey your argument makes no sense.. given a high haste situation it affects dnc just as much as any other job (should be obvious >_>).



lets take this statement and break that down a second... ok a dagger's delay is like 201 at most.. so 2x 201 daggers with dual wield is 402 delay yes? now which number is greater.. 80% (haste cap) of 402 or 80% of 464 (new higher delay GKs) or 528 (scythe..used plaga scythe for this delay example...) ...the answer is the 80% of the higher delay weapons.... so yes it DOES affect them more....
DNC has a 11 hit build atm? compared to a 5-6hit OAT a option on both ends, are DNCs just *** retards or just extremely proud maybe? I get 100tp in 20 seconds or less, probably avrg 15 if I stay engaged to keep aftermath going, WAR/SAM w/ 26% Haste or SAM/DRG OAT 5hit would only get TP faster... So the statement DNC is TP King is far from correct. I will stay with DNC is haste samba ***/best healer if TP'n is a option until cap is raised and maybe DW is fixed to compete with hasso jobs
since you are stuck on the only way to play the game is to have every bit of haste stacked on im gonna point out some math

as preciously stated dnc can attack 184 times a minute with OAT offhand

bit more than 3 attacks a sec

each attack gives 6 tp

each sec gives 18 tp

20 seconds give 360 tp

Ramuh.Dasva said:
Ifrit.Eikechi said:
Asura.Buddhsie said:
Mankey your argument makes no sense.. given a high haste situation it affects dnc just as much as any other job (should be obvious >_>).
lets take this statement and break that down a second... ok a dagger's delay is like 201 at most.. so 2x 201 daggers with dual wield is 402 delay yes? now which number is greater.. 80% (haste cap) of 402 or 80% of 464 (new higher delay GKs) or 528 (scythe..used plaga scythe for this delay example...) ...the answer is the 80% of the higher delay weapons.... so yes it DOES affect them more....
Also might add depending on what enhance samba does dnc can only hit 78% haste and that is super duper buffed and pimped. More buffs than he is ever likely to have outside of zerg. Like 2hring brd + haste spell + full gear haste + haste samba. And the relic drk he said couldn't tp as fast can get 60% haste solo for limited time.

But let's do realistic. Say just a brd giving double march for about 20% and haste spell and dnc samba for 10%.

Pimped out that would put dnc at 70. On the other hand a pimped out relic drk in that same pt can hit 78. Incase you are wondering how a relic drk can easily hit gear haste cap without a belt and Haste belt counts as magical stacking with other magical hastes and is rather easy to make/buy. Of course the drk could also just throw on alot more store tp too
yeah i pointed it out earlier, dnc's high end haste doesnt entirely reach what some jobs have.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-09-25 02:57:03
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
Every Hasso job can reach haste cap now fairly easily, Apoc was only said because he previously mentioned it
I totally forgot about hasso lol. That relic drk would get to 78.75 without samba then.

 Fenrir.Mankey
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-25 02:59:57
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Ramuh.Dasva said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
Every Hasso job can reach haste cap now fairly easily, Apoc was only said because he previously mentioned it
I totally forgot about hasso lol. That relic drk would get to 78.75 without samba then.

Hasso is what absolutely breaks the jobs, and makes DW cry, they need to give DW jobs a equivalent and allow Footwork MNKs to use Hasso
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:01:47
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
Every Hasso job can reach haste cap now fairly easily, Apoc was only said because he previously mentioned it
I totally forgot about hasso lol. That relic drk would get to 78.75 without samba then.

Hasso is what absolutely breaks the jobs, and makes DW cry, they need to give DW jobs a equivalent and allow Footwork MNKs to use Hasso
what would you consider having done to DW without breaking the game (granted SE wouldn't hire intelligent people)
 Fenrir.Mankey
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-25 03:03:16
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yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
Every Hasso job can reach haste cap now fairly easily, Apoc was only said because he previously mentioned it
I totally forgot about hasso lol. That relic drk would get to 78.75 without samba then.

Hasso is what absolutely breaks the jobs, and makes DW cry, they need to give DW jobs a equivalent and allow Footwork MNKs to use Hasso
what would you consider having done to DW without breaking the game (granted SE wouldn't hire intelligent people)
Making TripAttack %'s considerably larger
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:05:11
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
Every Hasso job can reach haste cap now fairly easily, Apoc was only said because he previously mentioned it
I totally forgot about hasso lol. That relic drk would get to 78.75 without samba then.

Hasso is what absolutely breaks the jobs, and makes DW cry, they need to give DW jobs a equivalent and allow Footwork MNKs to use Hasso
what would you consider having done to DW without breaking the game (granted SE wouldn't hire intelligent people)
Making TripAttack %'s considerably larger
would that include giving them to jobs that dont have TA?
 Fenrir.Mankey
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-25 03:07:51
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Only way they could ever keep up. 10$ haste/acc/attck and STR is just insane
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:09:26
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
Only way they could ever keep up. 10$ haste/acc/attck and STR is just insane
probably error with that kind of attack speed xD
 Fenrir.Mankey
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-25 03:10:43
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err 10% srry kinda tipsy :X
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:13:09
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
err 10% srry kinda tipsy :X
yeah i figured it out xD

ok what would you place dnc in the line of DD

1 - 20

1 being sam and 20 being uhhhhhhhhhh whm?
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-09-25 03:13:33
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Too much to quote but dnc only gets natural 30% reduction. You'd need at least 3 other peices to get to 45%. Not sure how you got 290 but lets say you are using auric + OAT that would be 426 base.


426*.55=235 after DW.


Which comes out to 4.4 tp/hit. Now with all the haste and DW gear you toting around I'd say maybe with /sam you got 21 store tp putting you up to 5.3 tp/hit.

Each attack round should average 2.5ish hits.

Assuming 70% haste:

235 delay * .3 * sec/60 delay= 1.175 seconds per attack round. Btw that only comes out to 127 not 184 attacks per min.

So combine that altogether.

(2.5hits/round)/(1.175 sec/round) *(5.3tp/hit) = 11.27 tp/sec. Not 18.
[+]
 Fenrir.Mankey
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-25 03:15:18
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yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
err 10% srry kinda tipsy :X
yeah i figured it out xD

ok what would you place dnc in the line of DD

1 - 20

1 being sam and 20 being uhhhhhhhhhh whm?
Relics included?
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:16:54
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Ramuh.Dasva said:
Too much to quote but dnc only gets natural 30% reduction. You'd need at least 3 other peices to get to 45%. Not sure how you got 290 but lets say you are using auric + OAT that would be 426 base.


426*.55=235 after DW.


Which comes out to 4.4 tp/hit. Now with all the haste and DW gear you toting around I'd say maybe with /sam you got 21 store tp putting you up to 5.3 tp/hit.

Each attack round should average 2.5ish hits.

Assuming 70% haste:

235 delay * .3 * sec/60 delay= 1.175 seconds per attack round. Btw that only comes out to 127 not 184 attacks per min.

So combine that altogether.

(2.5hits/round)/(1.175 sec/round) *(5.3tp/hit) = 11.27 tp/sec. Not 18.
avg dnc tp's in auric/suppa/charis necklace (another 15%)

charis head/legs/feet and other proper tp gear gives +35 stp

is that including saber dance?
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:17:15
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
err 10% srry kinda tipsy :X
yeah i figured it out xD

ok what would you place dnc in the line of DD

1 - 20

1 being sam and 20 being uhhhhhhhhhh whm?
Relics included?
no dnc got *** in that category
 Ramuh.Laffter
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By Ramuh.Laffter 2010-09-25 03:17:21
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If a WHM gears right, it beats DNC for DD. :P
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:24:09
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also yeah i *** up the 290delay part, tired~
 Fenrir.Mankey
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-25 03:24:26
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yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
err 10% srry kinda tipsy :X
yeah i figured it out xD

ok what would you place dnc in the line of DD

1 - 20

1 being sam and 20 being uhhhhhhhhhh whm?
Relics included?
no dnc got *** in that category
With optimal gear, merit situation no relics, would say 1. WAR/SAM 2. SAM/DRG 3. DRK/SAM 4. DRG/SAM Rest of them would depend on Atmas and such, BLU is amazing in abyssea, RNG is amazing if KC is viable.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-09-25 03:28:48
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yunalaysca said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Too much to quote but dnc only gets natural 30% reduction. You'd need at least 3 other peices to get to 45%. Not sure how you got 290 but lets say you are using auric + OAT that would be 426 base.

426*.55=235 after DW.

Which comes out to 4.4 tp/hit. Now with all the haste and DW gear you toting around I'd say maybe with /sam you got 21 store tp putting you up to 5.3 tp/hit.

Each attack round should average 2.5ish hits.

Assuming 70% haste: 235 delay * .3 * sec/60 delay= 1.175 seconds per attack round. Btw that only comes out to 127 not 184 attacks per min.

So combine that altogether.

(2.5hits/round)/(1.175 sec/round) *(5.3tp/hit) = 11.27 tp/sec. Not 18.
avg dnc tp's in auric/suppa/charis necklace (another 15%)

charis head/legs/feet and other proper tp gear gives +35 stp is that including saber dance?
I'm sorry but no average dncs do not tp in 15% DW and 25% haste AND 35 store tp in gear. In fact I'd like to see a gear set that actually does that.

Also Saber dance is greedy but I can do the math on how that would affect things. Assuming a dnc actually full merited it. Of course by the same token I didn't factor in ja time. Or the fact that a dnc would help the pt out alot more by healing and stepping then not doing it
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-25 03:30:23
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yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
err 10% srry kinda tipsy :X
yeah i figured it out xD

ok what would you place dnc in the line of DD

1 - 20

1 being sam and 20 being uhhhhhhhhhh whm?
Relics included?
no dnc got *** in that category


LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? Dnc actually got the best of just about all of them... Terp level 85 has "Enhance step 3" which gives 5FM per step (or should, theoretically) since enhance step 1 gives +1 FM to each step... how is that "***"? thats so rigged lol
 Ramuh.Laffter
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By Ramuh.Laffter 2010-09-25 03:31:34
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Ifrit.Eikechi said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
err 10% srry kinda tipsy :X
yeah i figured it out xD

ok what would you place dnc in the line of DD

1 - 20

1 being sam and 20 being uhhhhhhhhhh whm?
Relics included?
no dnc got *** in that category


LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? Dnc actually got the best of just about all of them... Terp level 85 has "Enhance step 3" which gives 5FM per step (or should, theoretically) since enhance step 1 gives +1 FM to each step... how is that "***"? thats so rigged lol
I think it means in regards to a good DD relic, like Bravura for WAR or some such.
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-25 03:32:55
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so 5 FM per step is ***? lol its amazing
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-25 03:33:41
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Ramuh.Dasva said:
yunalaysca said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Too much to quote but dnc only gets natural 30% reduction. You'd need at least 3 other peices to get to 45%. Not sure how you got 290 but lets say you are using auric + OAT that would be 426 base.

426*.55=235 after DW.

Which comes out to 4.4 tp/hit. Now with all the haste and DW gear you toting around I'd say maybe with /sam you got 21 store tp putting you up to 5.3 tp/hit.

Each attack round should average 2.5ish hits.

Assuming 70% haste: 235 delay * .3 * sec/60 delay= 1.175 seconds per attack round. Btw that only comes out to 127 not 184 attacks per min.

So combine that altogether.

(2.5hits/round)/(1.175 sec/round) *(5.3tp/hit) = 11.27 tp/sec. Not 18.
avg dnc tp's in auric/suppa/charis necklace (another 15%)

charis head/legs/feet and other proper tp gear gives +35 stp is that including saber dance?
I'm sorry but no average dncs do not tp in 15% DW and 25% haste AND 35 store tp in gear. In fact I'd like to see a gear set that actually does that.

Also Saber dance is greedy but I can do the math on how that would affect things. Assuming a dnc actually full merited it. Of course by the same token I didn't factor in ja time. Or the fact that a dnc would help the pt out alot more by healing and stepping then not doing it
Item Set
Not your "average" DNC though >.>
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By Ramuh.Laffter 2010-09-25 03:34:08
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I only have my DNC to 25, so I'm not sure of the mechanics. xO
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-09-25 03:39:28
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
Item Set
Not your "average" DNC though >.>
Not only is it not average it is only 21 store tp and assuming you put 3 DW on the body only 8 in gear.

Also reworking the numbers if you had full merits in saber dance and full timed it you would average 3.138 per attack round. But if you are full timing saber dance you'd average 2.866 anyways so probably shouldn't be using OAT dagger then anyways
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:39:55
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
err 10% srry kinda tipsy :X
yeah i figured it out xD

ok what would you place dnc in the line of DD

1 - 20

1 being sam and 20 being uhhhhhhhhhh whm?
Relics included?
no dnc got *** in that category
With optimal gear, merit situation no relics, would say 1. WAR/SAM 2. SAM/DRG 3. DRK/SAM 4. DRG/SAM Rest of them would depend on Atmas and such, BLU is amazing in abyssea, RNG is amazing if KC is viable.
didnt place dnc xD


Ramuh.Dasva said:
yunalaysca said:
Ramuh.Dasva said:
Too much to quote but dnc only gets natural 30% reduction. You'd need at least 3 other peices to get to 45%. Not sure how you got 290 but lets say you are using auric + OAT that would be 426 base.

426*.55=235 after DW.

Which comes out to 4.4 tp/hit. Now with all the haste and DW gear you toting around I'd say maybe with /sam you got 21 store tp putting you up to 5.3 tp/hit.

Each attack round should average 2.5ish hits.

Assuming 70% haste: 235 delay * .3 * sec/60 delay= 1.175 seconds per attack round. Btw that only comes out to 127 not 184 attacks per min.

So combine that altogether.

(2.5hits/round)/(1.175 sec/round) *(5.3tp/hit) = 11.27 tp/sec. Not 18.
avg dnc tp's in auric/suppa/charis necklace (another 15%)

charis head/legs/feet and other proper tp gear gives +35 stp is that including saber dance?
I'm sorry but no average dncs do not tp in 15% DW and 25% haste AND 35 store tp in gear. In fact I'd like to see a gear set that actually does that.

Also Saber dance is greedy but I can do the math on how that would affect things. Assuming a dnc actually full merited it. Of course by the same token I didn't factor in ja time. Or the fact that a dnc would help the pt out alot more by healing and stepping then not doing it
seriously? as far as i've seen many many many dnc use auric + suppa + charis necklace

i also didnt say the avg dnc tp's in +35 tp (idealy thats what i was going for)

Item Set



i was refering to full DD, not *** waltz, also if the party had that speed mobs, generally dont last long enough for steps to even matter, but ok.

Ifrit.Eikechi said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
yunalaysca said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
err 10% srry kinda tipsy :X
yeah i figured it out xD

ok what would you place dnc in the line of DD

1 - 20

1 being sam and 20 being uhhhhhhhhhh whm?
Relics included?
no dnc got *** in that category


LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? Dnc actually got the best of just about all of them... Terp level 85 has "Enhance step 3" which gives 5FM per step (or should, theoretically) since enhance step 1 gives +1 FM to each step... how is that "***"? thats so rigged lol
xD i meant that dnc doesnt even get a relic
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:42:14
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Ifrit.Eikechi said:
so 5 FM per step is ***? lol its amazing
you can only reverse every 30 seconds anyways, presto 2x steps is fine, if you are refering to them getting 5fm because of the dagger, its nice but not exactly amazing.

aftermath is a different story though
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2010-09-25 03:42:36
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***neither does pup Yuna..but i'd sell my left nut for a kenkonken... that thing is dangerously overpowered
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2010-09-25 03:43:08
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Why would you use an Airy ring in a TP set
[+]
 yunalaysca
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By yunalaysca 2010-09-25 03:43:28
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Ramuh.Dasva said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
Item Set
Not your "average" DNC though >.>
Not only is it not average it is only 21 store tp and assuming you put 3 DW on the body only 8 in gear.

Also reworking the numbers if you had full merits in saber dance and full timed it you would average 3.138 per attack round. But if you are full timing saber dance you'd average 2.866 anyways so probably shouldn't be using OAT dagger then anyways
one of the reasons im not a fan of OAT
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