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Racist Or Lazy?
Racist or Lazy?
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Example: in another forum the other day, someone asked me to translate something a Japanese player said. They "rudely" dropped party with no warning, said something evidently "racist" in English, and "stormed off." The English-speaking players launched into a massive diatribe about xenophobic, elitist, thorny, hostile JP players, with some people who supposedly spoke Japanese jumping in to "translate" the JP users' statements into something that verified the original assumption.
In actuality, they didn't speak JP at all. They made it up. Or they only barely spoke JP, and filled in the blanks with their own imaginations. What the JP player actually said was that there was a sudden emergency in his family, and he needed to log out. In the polite tense. With apologies. But by that point, the thread was so self-absorbed in righteous indignation that they didn't want to hear it.
Taking what is a simple misunderstanding in phrasing and arguing backwards, all the way through centuries of history to make sweeping statements like "Japan is a closed society," with some stroke of finality as though you're qualified to define an entire nation in one sentence, is itself just as racist as what you're accusing other people of.
In actuality, they didn't speak JP at all. They made it up. Or they only barely spoke JP, and filled in the blanks with their own imaginations. What the JP player actually said was that there was a sudden emergency in his family, and he needed to log out. In the polite tense. With apologies. But by that point, the thread was so self-absorbed in righteous indignation that they didn't want to hear it.
Taking what is a simple misunderstanding in phrasing and arguing backwards, all the way through centuries of history to make sweeping statements like "Japan is a closed society," with some stroke of finality as though you're qualified to define an entire nation in one sentence, is itself just as racist as what you're accusing other people of.
There's an entire thread on JP Button about this, where Elmer interviewed many Japanese players and asked them questions like this. Many players have had bad experiences with NA players (who hasn't?), where ignorant players say insulting things like, "wats that jap saying? squiggly squiggly wwwwwww?"
Just like us, Japanese players play this to have fun and relax. When they encounter English parties, if they aren't fluent or don't enjoy practicing a new language, it can feel like classwork and stress them out. They may not be confident in their skills and might get embarrassed. It's like if you had three years of Spanish class, and you suddenly found yourself with a group of people who speak Spanish only outside the classroom. I'm sure you would feel uncomfortable, and it is probably worse for Japanese players. After all, they don't have the same cultural hodge-podge we have here in America; Japan is predominantly "JP Only".
A couple issues were more SE's fault as well. They did not inform Japanese players that the servers were going global and would be merged, so it was very upsetting for them to suddenly have NA and EU players running around. A couple of the auto-translate functions and /emotes are actually worded poorly in Japanese and can actually come off as rude, while being completely innocuous in English; for example, while /check says, "XXXX examines you," in English, the Japanese /check says something close to, "XXXX stares intently at you." If you keep some of these in mind, it can really improve your relationships.
If you know a couple Japanese phrases, whether you type them in romaji, or copy-paste with Windower (be careful!), I know many Japanese players really appreciate your effort and actually encourage you! Many Japanese parties were convinced I was Japanese, right up until I said it was 5 a.m. and that {I'm sleepy}. I, personally, have only had one bad experience with a Japanese player--he told me to go die--but that was more due to his ignorance; after all, every group has their bad apples, and the Japanese have their fair share. But generally if you make an effort, many times they will make an effort with you as well.
/walloftext
Just like us, Japanese players play this to have fun and relax. When they encounter English parties, if they aren't fluent or don't enjoy practicing a new language, it can feel like classwork and stress them out. They may not be confident in their skills and might get embarrassed. It's like if you had three years of Spanish class, and you suddenly found yourself with a group of people who speak Spanish only outside the classroom. I'm sure you would feel uncomfortable, and it is probably worse for Japanese players. After all, they don't have the same cultural hodge-podge we have here in America; Japan is predominantly "JP Only".
A couple issues were more SE's fault as well. They did not inform Japanese players that the servers were going global and would be merged, so it was very upsetting for them to suddenly have NA and EU players running around. A couple of the auto-translate functions and /emotes are actually worded poorly in Japanese and can actually come off as rude, while being completely innocuous in English; for example, while /check says, "XXXX examines you," in English, the Japanese /check says something close to, "XXXX stares intently at you." If you keep some of these in mind, it can really improve your relationships.
If you know a couple Japanese phrases, whether you type them in romaji, or copy-paste with Windower (be careful!), I know many Japanese players really appreciate your effort and actually encourage you! Many Japanese parties were convinced I was Japanese, right up until I said it was 5 a.m. and that {I'm sleepy}. I, personally, have only had one bad experience with a Japanese player--he told me to go die--but that was more due to his ignorance; after all, every group has their bad apples, and the Japanese have their fair share. But generally if you make an effort, many times they will make an effort with you as well.
/walloftext
I'm just going to say it.
Most NA players are rude, snobby, arrogant, racist, sexist, elitist, greedy and extremely selfish.
/equip body "Assault Breastplate" <me>
Most NA players are rude, snobby, arrogant, racist, sexist, elitist, greedy and extremely selfish.
/equip body "Assault Breastplate" <me>
[+]
Leviathan.Dubont said:
I'm just going to say it.
Most NA players are rude, snobby, arrogant, racist, sexist, elitist, greedy and extremely selfish.
/equip body "Assault Breastplate" <me>
Most NA players are rude, snobby, arrogant, racist, sexist, elitist, greedy and extremely selfish.
/equip body "Assault Breastplate" <me>
/ agreed. its true, I am white but in game definately a japanese supremacist
Unicorn.Ducea said:
Leviathan.Dubont said:
I'm just going to say it. Most NA players are rude, snobby, arrogant, racist, sexist, elitist, greedy and extremely selfish. /equip body "Assault Breastplate" <me>
I believe in equality.
[+]
Was told JP Onry when I went to Mount T and there was a magic burn going w/ 3 blm and a cor. I asked to join and got shot down. I know its not my gear because I about 90% HQ everything and I have everything except a novio atm as well as being fully merited. I soloed for a while and was doing a steady 200-500 damage over the JP hardest nuker..
Long story short
I left about 20 min later, took a break for about 40 min then geared up BRD. Not more than 5 min LFP I get a /t from the same JP asking if I wanna EXP @ Mount Z. My whole /seacom was written in engrish and had no auto-***-translate in it.
I dont even think he noticed I was the BLM that had asked an hour earlier. At least until I got out to camp and said i sowwy, engrish onry then warped out.
Long story short
I left about 20 min later, took a break for about 40 min then geared up BRD. Not more than 5 min LFP I get a /t from the same JP asking if I wanna EXP @ Mount Z. My whole /seacom was written in engrish and had no auto-***-translate in it.
I dont even think he noticed I was the BLM that had asked an hour earlier. At least until I got out to camp and said i sowwy, engrish onry then warped out.
[+]
Asura.Tygon said:
Was told JP Onry when I went to Mount T and there was a magic burn going w/ 3 blm and a cor. I asked to join and got shot down. I know its not my gear because I about 90% HQ everything and I have everything except a novio atm as well as being fully merited. I soloed for a while and was doing a steady 200-500 damage over the JP hardest nuker..
Long story short
I left about 20 min later, took a break for about 40 min then geared up BRD. Not more than 5 min LFP I get a /t from the same JP asking if I wanna EXP @ Mount Z. My whole /seacom was written in engrish and had no auto-***-translate in it.
I dont even think he noticed I was the BLM that had asked an hour earlier. At least until I got out to camp and said i sowwy, engrish onry then warped out.
Long story short
I left about 20 min later, took a break for about 40 min then geared up BRD. Not more than 5 min LFP I get a /t from the same JP asking if I wanna EXP @ Mount Z. My whole /seacom was written in engrish and had no auto-***-translate in it.
I dont even think he noticed I was the BLM that had asked an hour earlier. At least until I got out to camp and said i sowwy, engrish onry then warped out.
I lol'd.
[+]
Japanese people are racist to Americans because we're *** idiots, and Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the world. You wouldn't hang out with an idiot in school if you're a genius, why would you do so ingame?
I agree, it's a rash overgeneralization, but it's correct for 90% of us.
I agree, it's a rash overgeneralization, but it's correct for 90% of us.
Diabolos.Shanel said:
^.^b
well said Jaerik
well said Jaerik
Seen this a few times in this forum.. But all I really seen is lame *** excuses for a country that is occupied by a lot American civilians and military AND has ENGLISH as a second language.
[+]
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
You guys are reading into things that you should not be, and it's maddening to watch. Applying your definition of polite/rude speech or behavior across language lines is extremely dangerous, and I think it's a telling aspect of human nature that the default assumption when presented with ambiguity is to assume hostility. Just look at any human's natural reaction when people are talking in front of them in a language they can't understand. ("Are you guys talking ***about me?") Why do we always assume that? "jp only" is a rude statement in English. It's even arguably racist. From a Western perspective. But the auto-translator was written for the English release, by English-speakers. It is a tremendous pain in the *** to use in Japanese because certain functionality, like the ability to type a few letters and auto-complete the token -- features that make the entire system in English -- are missing entirely or unreliable in the JP release. If the word "only" is the solitary English term you've learned in school to describe what you're trying to say, you use it. You don't sit there wondering if the second-order implications of the one word you know might sound rude or racist in the other person's language. There are many reasons that Japanese players may want to only play with other Japanese players. Many of these reasons may not be racist. They may be reasons that, like the problems with the JP auto-trans function, you are incapable of knowing. There are legitimate racists among the JP player base, but they are no more numerous than among EN players. However, approaching a situation with the assumption of racist hostility does nothing but make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Example: in another forum the other day, someone asked me to translate something a Japanese player said. They "rudely" dropped party with no warning, said something evidently "racist" in English, and "stormed off." The English-speaking players launched into a massive diatribe about xenophobic, elitist, thorny, hostile JP players, with some people who supposedly spoke Japanese jumping in to "translate" the JP users' statements into something that verified the original assumption. In actuality, they didn't speak JP at all. They made it up. Or they only barely spoke JP, and filled in the blanks with their own imaginations. What the JP player actually said was that there was a sudden emergency in his family, and he needed to log out. In the polite tense. With apologies. But by that point, the thread was so self-absorbed in righteous indignation that they didn't want to hear it. Taking what is a simple misunderstanding in phrasing and arguing backwards, all the way through centuries of history to make sweeping statements like "Japan is a closed society," with some stroke of finality as though you're qualified to define an entire nation in one sentence, is itself just as racist as what you're accusing other people of.
First post that long I think I've actually read. Makes sense. Read it.
Jaerik's words were quite a read! Go read them on first page if you didn't see.
I think one of my favourite things about this game as been learning about JP culture. When I first started I admit I had many of the same anti-JP sentiments, and for all the wrong reasons. Since then, I've read everything I can about cross-culture Q&A sessions on various websites, etc., and it's really quite a read. I would highly recommend to anyone not fully versed in both cultures to go read up, I think you'll find it quite incredible.
JP society is simply quite different. Different values, different approaches, different motivations. Since I started to become more familiar with why JP "act" the way they do, I've found myself much more at ease with them in the game.
Of course, having a great translation system would help - but even a flawless program would not solve all drama, there's a lot more to bridging the cultures than mere words.
Here's a a good one to get you started: http://www.jpbutton.com/?p=551
I think one of my favourite things about this game as been learning about JP culture. When I first started I admit I had many of the same anti-JP sentiments, and for all the wrong reasons. Since then, I've read everything I can about cross-culture Q&A sessions on various websites, etc., and it's really quite a read. I would highly recommend to anyone not fully versed in both cultures to go read up, I think you'll find it quite incredible.
JP society is simply quite different. Different values, different approaches, different motivations. Since I started to become more familiar with why JP "act" the way they do, I've found myself much more at ease with them in the game.
Of course, having a great translation system would help - but even a flawless program would not solve all drama, there's a lot more to bridging the cultures than mere words.
Here's a a good one to get you started: http://www.jpbutton.com/?p=551
IMO, I think the part of the reason is that some JPs are only comfortable playing with others who speak the same language. I do believe that some do it just to be racist, but I also think that some are more comfortable playing with their own race.
It's probably easier for them, just as it is us, to stick to people who will understand what they're trying to say, because sometimes, trying to explain strategy in auto-translate is kinda hard.
I myself prefer to play with NA players because they're easier to talk to, I can explain strategy without fumbling around with auto-translate for five minutes (I'm horrible with auto-translate ;_;), and I don't have to wonder if the JPs are making fun of the group when they talk.
Don't get me wrong. I do play with JP players, and they're awesome. I have yet to see the 'JP ONRY' reply from anyone I have asked on Quetz server. But it's still just more comfortable to to play with NAs.
Sorry for the long explanation. This is just my opinion and is not meant to berate anyone. I apologize if it comes off that way. ^_^;
It's probably easier for them, just as it is us, to stick to people who will understand what they're trying to say, because sometimes, trying to explain strategy in auto-translate is kinda hard.
I myself prefer to play with NA players because they're easier to talk to, I can explain strategy without fumbling around with auto-translate for five minutes (I'm horrible with auto-translate ;_;), and I don't have to wonder if the JPs are making fun of the group when they talk.
Don't get me wrong. I do play with JP players, and they're awesome. I have yet to see the 'JP ONRY' reply from anyone I have asked on Quetz server. But it's still just more comfortable to to play with NAs.
Sorry for the long explanation. This is just my opinion and is not meant to berate anyone. I apologize if it comes off that way. ^_^;
BTW, I never noticed, but is Jae actually JP? He speaks English better than most Americans 'talk american', and I think I've seen him actually translate from JP to Eng and Eng to JP. Just curious.
Asura.Tygon said:
Seen this a few times in this forum.. But all I really seen is lame *** excuses for a country that is occupied by a lot American civilians and military AND has ENGLISH as a second language.
http://jponry.ytmnd.com/
ˆThisˆ
My opinion:
If you don't want NA people helping you then don't use auto translate when shouting. If you don't want JP helping you, don't use auto translate when shouting.
If you're using auto translate for people who speak your language because "maybe they don't understand" maybe that person isn't someone you want to team up with you.
I love exping and doing things with JP. They do things so different compared to NA. It's kinda frustrating when they do say JP only but whatever it happens. If they don't want to do stuff with me, their loss not mine.
If you don't want NA people helping you then don't use auto translate when shouting. If you don't want JP helping you, don't use auto translate when shouting.
If you're using auto translate for people who speak your language because "maybe they don't understand" maybe that person isn't someone you want to team up with you.
I love exping and doing things with JP. They do things so different compared to NA. It's kinda frustrating when they do say JP only but whatever it happens. If they don't want to do stuff with me, their loss not mine.
BTW, NAs, stop talking "Most of us are *** idiots" and "We're all rude" I'm sure JP have their rude, their foolish, and their crooked, but they don't group themselves all in with those people. Quit bringing us all down with the "bad" in our society. JP are just like NA, only they speak a different language and live in a different place. If you don't like how your fellow Americans are, become a mentor, a teacher, or a counselor and help prevent it.
[+]
Phoenix.Kojo said:
BTW, NAs, stop talking "Most of us are *** idiots" and "We're all rude" I'm sure JP have their rude, their foolish, and their crooked, but they don't group themselves all in with those people. Quit bringing us all down with the "bad" in our society. JP are just like NA, only they speak a different language and live in a different place. If you don't like how your fellow Americans are, become a mentor, a teacher, or a counselor and help prevent it.
Well other countries see us as pigs, why not agree with them? since its true
Leviathan.Dubont said:
Phoenix.Kojo said:
BTW, NAs, stop talking "Most of us are *** idiots" and "We're all rude" I'm sure JP have their rude, their foolish, and their crooked, but they don't group themselves all in with those people. Quit bringing us all down with the "bad" in our society. JP are just like NA, only they speak a different language and live in a different place. If you don't like how your fellow Americans are, become a mentor, a teacher, or a counselor and help prevent it.
And it appears some of us see JPs as racist, maybe they should just agree with us.
[+]
Ohh yay another NA vs JP player thread.
[+]
Leviathan.Dubont said:
Phoenix.Kojo said:
BTW, NAs, stop talking "Most of us are *** idiots" and "We're all rude" I'm sure JP have their rude, their foolish, and their crooked, but they don't group themselves all in with those people. Quit bringing us all down with the "bad" in our society. JP are just like NA, only they speak a different language and live in a different place. If you don't like how your fellow Americans are, become a mentor, a teacher, or a counselor and help prevent it.
Well other countries see us as pigs, why not agree with them? since its true
Speak for yourself >_> Just because there's a lot of idiots within the USA doesn't mean we're all idiots.
[+]
Gilgamesh.Aerokii said:
Leviathan.Dubont said:
Phoenix.Kojo said:
BTW, NAs, stop talking "Most of us are *** idiots" and "We're all rude" I'm sure JP have their rude, their foolish, and their crooked, but they don't group themselves all in with those people. Quit bringing us all down with the "bad" in our society. JP are just like NA, only they speak a different language and live in a different place. If you don't like how your fellow Americans are, become a mentor, a teacher, or a counselor and help prevent it.
Well other countries see us as pigs, why not agree with them? since its true
Speak for yourself >_> Just because there's a lot of idiots within the USA doesn't mean we're all idiots.
My post wasn't an invitation to bash NA players either. If we're going to be against racism, we need to be internally consistent, and turning that around and saying things like "NA players are arrogant and self-centered" isn't the answer either.
I'm a white guy that grew up in Japan, so I'm dual-native with a weird hybrid of loyalties.
Phoenix.Kojo said:
BTW, I never noticed, but is Jae actually JP? He speaks English better than most Americans 'talk american', and I think I've seen him actually translate from JP to Eng and Eng to JP. Just curious.
I'm a white guy that grew up in Japan, so I'm dual-native with a weird hybrid of loyalties.
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
My post wasn't an invitation to bash NA players either. If we're going to be against racism, we need to be internally consistent, and turning that around and saying things like "NA players are arrogant and self-centered" isn't the answer either.
I'm a white guy that grew up in Japan, so I'm dual-native with a weird hybrid of loyalties.
Phoenix.Kojo said:
BTW, I never noticed, but is Jae actually JP? He speaks English better than most Americans 'talk american', and I think I've seen him actually translate from JP to Eng and Eng to JP. Just curious.
I'm a white guy that grew up in Japan, so I'm dual-native with a weird hybrid of loyalties.
Some NAs just get a little butt hurt and QQ whenever something seems to be "slightly" racist. Not everything is racists. JP Only = Easier communication; pure and simple.
Even if you know every aspect of this game doesn't mean you can understand how a JP group is going to do something; experienced this with a Valk run I did with some JP. They clearly said 50 times not to attack the NM before chainspell and they said "Full attack! -> Chainspell" and all this NA read was full attack and QD'd the NM forcing us to wipe and waste a glass.
It has nothing to do with race. Just like for NA's it's easier to talk strategies in English then trying to auto translate everything and confuse someone who isn't English native.
It's not a race issue it's a language barrier issue.
Even if you know every aspect of this game doesn't mean you can understand how a JP group is going to do something; experienced this with a Valk run I did with some JP. They clearly said 50 times not to attack the NM before chainspell and they said "Full attack! -> Chainspell" and all this NA read was full attack and QD'd the NM forcing us to wipe and waste a glass.
It has nothing to do with race. Just like for NA's it's easier to talk strategies in English then trying to auto translate everything and confuse someone who isn't English native.
It's not a race issue it's a language barrier issue.
Bismarck.Rinako said:
It's not a race issue it's a language barrier issue.
There's also a tech issue, here. Because of the way Japanese input is done through the IME in multiple conversion stages, the "auto-complete" feature of the auto-trans is unreliable and often useless.
NA players: imagine if you had to actually type out "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass." every time before you could hit Tab and tokenize it as autotrans? And if you missed the comma, or the period, or the capitalization, it wouldn't recognize it?
What if it wasn't even that? What if it was subtly awkward or bad grammar because it was written by Japanese developers, and you have to remember to not just type it perfectly, but remember it's actually "The offer is my thanks, but passing on this I will have to accomplish?"
Not only that, but what if when the other side responded to you, the translation was so bad that "Please invite me" came out as "Please stick it in?" (That's the actual JP version of that autotrans token, by the way.)
Would you be wild about using it? Probably not. And what would be your reaction if Japanese players called you "lazy" and "racist" for not doing so?
[+]
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Not only that, but what if when the other side responded to you, the translation was so bad that "Please invite me" came out as "Please stick it in?" (That's the actual JP version of that autotrans token, by the way.)
{Please invite me.} turns into "Please stick it in" on the Japanese client..? o.o;
Sylph.Hitetsu said:
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Not only that, but what if when the other side responded to you, the translation was so bad that "Please invite me" came out as "Please stick it in?" (That's the actual JP version of that autotrans token, by the way.)
{Please invite me.} turns into "Please stick it in" on the Japanese client..? o.o;
Yes.
Please invite me -> 入れてください。 What is going into where via which means is left entirely ambiguous.
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Bismarck.Rinako said:
It's not a race issue it's a language barrier issue.
There's also a tech issue, here. Because of the way Japanese input is done through the IME in multiple conversion stages, the "auto-complete" feature of the auto-trans is unreliable and often useless.
NA players: imagine if you had to actually type out "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass." every time before you could hit Tab and tokenize it as autotrans? And if you missed the comma, or the period, or the capitalization, it wouldn't recognize it?
What if it wasn't even that? What if it was subtly awkward or bad grammar because it was written by Japanese developers, and you have to remember to not just type it perfectly, but remember it's actually "The offer is my thanks, but passing on this I will have to accomplish?"
Would you be wild about using it? Probably not. And what would be your reaction if Japanese players called you "lazy" and "racist" for not doing so?
Exactly, but a lot of English speaking people think you can translate word for word to get the same meaning in Japanese. Which isn't the case. English is a VERY hard language to learn if it's not your native language. Even if "it's like a second language" to Japanese; not everyone feels comfortable speaking it to english speaking people for the fact most Americans are quick to judge and it's not a comfortable language to speak in general for English nonspeaking.
Hello grammar nazi's.
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