Racist Or Lazy?

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Racist or Lazy?
 Carbuncle.Rinomaru
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By Carbuncle.Rinomaru 2010-03-25 16:29:39
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Bismarck.Rinako said:
Some NAs just get a little butt hurt and QQ whenever something seems to be "slightly" racist. Not everything is racists. JP Only = Easier communication; pure and simple.

Even if you know every aspect of this game doesn't mean you can understand how a JP group is going to do something; experienced this with a Valk run I did with some JP. They clearly said 50 times not to attack the NM before chainspell and they said "Full attack! -> Chainspell" and all this NA read was full attack and QD'd the NM forcing us to wipe and waste a glass.

It has nothing to do with race. Just like for NA's it's easier to talk strategies in English then trying to auto translate everything and confuse someone who isn't English native.

It's not a race issue it's a language barrier issue.

Jumping in the thread here
:Might be off topic, just my experience:

I've been around since ps2 release
There's been alot of JP only players, but quite honestly it's a barrier. It's extremely hard for instance to nyzul with just auto translate. EN players use auto-translate because you type 3 letters, tab, a word. JP it's harder to to auto-translate so they don't use it. Some JP are snobby, yes and don't wanna party with EN. I've met some strait out racist *** EN people that should drop dead.

I mean last night, it was me(whm) and 5 other Japanese players, doing MMM.
They hardly used any auto-translate and talked. But anytime I said something in translate they at least tried to communicate. When I did good i guess(i hate mage jobs lol) they say ty ty, do the happy eyes ^^. It was fun all and all.

TBH i prefer mixxed players, sometimes/more often Japanese players are more polite but so I like conversation.

And for the record; I'm an Egg :D
 Sylph.Hitetsu
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By Sylph.Hitetsu 2010-03-25 16:31:02
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Sylph.Hitetsu said:
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Not only that, but what if when the other side responded to you, the translation was so bad that "Please invite me" came out as "Please stick it in?" (This is actually what the JP version of that autotrans token is, by the way.)

{Please invite me.} turns into "Please stick it in" on the Japanese client..? o.o;

Yes.

Please invite me -> 入れてください。

I'll admit.. that's kinda scary >_>;

I only know a couple of words in Japanese, so I generally won't say much. When I enter a PT I know has some Japanese members, I'll usually "{Hello!}~! Yoroshiku~!^^", similarly when I gain a merit/level up/whatever and get a congratulations, I'll reply with "{Thank you.} Ari~!^^" and "{Congratulations!} Ome~!^^" whenever someone else gains something.

Similarly, when I leave a PT after either it disbands, or I have to leave, I never know how to leave XD I always end up with something like "{Thank you.} for PT! {Incredibly Tough} {fun}", though I'll admit, I sometimes wonder how much of that actually comes across how I want it to XD

I've looked at Shigemo's FFXI Japanese guide in the past, but I've never really had much use out of it. How much are the phrases in there likely to help?
 Leviathan.Dubont
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By Leviathan.Dubont 2010-03-25 16:31:11
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Bismarck.Rinako said:

Exactly, but a lot of English speaking people think you can translate word for word to get the same meaning in Japanese. Which isn't the case. English is a VERY hard language to learn if it's not your native language. Even if "it's like a second language" to Japanese; not everyone feels comfortable speaking it to english speaking people for the fact most Americans are quick to judge and it's not a comfortable language to speak in general for English nonspeaking.

Hello grammar nazi's.

Fine example of this:

My room mate was talking to someone on a forum. The guy was Korean I think. My mate got soooooooooo mad and screamed at the guy b/c he couldn't make proper sentences. I could understand him just fine (mainly b/c of years of FFXI) but my room mate was so pissed at this guy. When I said that he probably isn't taught English all day everyday for 19 years, he said "*** him, he needs to learn English before trying to talk to me."

Long story short, yes, many people are quick to judge and they are violent about it.
 Siren.Narayan
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By Siren.Narayan 2010-03-25 16:37:17
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I think it's funny there is always a random Japanese vs English discussion but I never come across any issues with the other languages in the game.

I've personally seen French, German, Spanish, & Portuguese. Been in parties where I somehow am the only English speaker or the other(s) doesn't speak because we're the minority spoken language. What happens? Exactly what you see when the Japanese person is the minority: Silence, random mis-tell (sometimes to the other minority), their language and/or auto-translate, silly macros. It really isn't any different. Your reaction is all that is.

If you feel inadequate because of the language barrier then you apologize as best you can and leave or you grin 'n bare it. Some people just drop; yea that's rude, but it isn't culture specific.

If I get ignored, or language only'd its irritating but so are people in general. We all want to be comfortable and sometimes putting up with a barrier is just too much work. It's like when I wanna get all grammar Nazi on someone. "OMFG spell out the word, I don't speak stupid," is how I feel. But instead I ignore it or bare with it... unless it's just too god awful to comprehend then it's apologize and bow out lol
 Carbuncle.Rinomaru
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By Carbuncle.Rinomaru 2010-03-25 17:21:33
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Siren.Narayan said:
I think it's funny there is always a random Japanese vs English discussion but I never come across any issues with the other languages in the game.

I've personally seen French, German, Spanish, & Portuguese. Been in parties where I somehow am the only English speaker or the other(s) doesn't speak because we're the minority spoken language. What happens? Exactly what you see when the Japanese person is the minority: Silence, random mis-tell (sometimes to the other minority), their language and/or auto-translate, silly macros. It really isn't any different. Your reaction is all that is.

If you feel inadequate because of the language barrier then you apologize as best you can and leave or you grin 'n bare it. Some people just drop; yea that's rude, but it isn't culture specific.

If I get ignored, or language only'd its irritating but so are people in general. We all want to be comfortable and sometimes putting up with a barrier is just too much work. It's like when I wanna get all grammar Nazi on someone. "OMFG spell out the word, I don't speak stupid," is how I feel. But instead I ignore it or bare with it... unless it's just too god awful to comprehend then it's apologize and bow out lol

Every where there's different people. I knew this Tottally insane JP guy, his combo macro was in /shout. He did alot of funny things.
Then you have the SUPER serious guys that wont lol, w or /laugh at all. Same for english/NA players. Some can be goofy, some are hecka strict, some are total cards. Just think of EN players in a different Language lol
 Unicorn.Smurfo
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By Unicorn.Smurfo 2010-03-28 15:37:05
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Sylph.Hitetsu said:
Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
Not only that, but what if when the other side responded to you, the translation was so bad that "Please invite me" came out as "Please stick it in?" (That's the actual JP version of that autotrans token, by the way.)

{Please invite me.} turns into "Please stick it in" on the Japanese client..? o.o;

Yes.

Please invite me -> 入れてください。 What is going into where via which means is left entirely ambiguous.



LOLOLOL I dunno, if i was japanese and always seeing people ask "please stick it in" id be all about hanging out with americans in game... just me tho

but anyway, what i like to do if i have a case of the late night JPONRYS while seeking, ill jump on my bard, set up party flag with comment -> english only then i'll pass out.

The thing i've always found hypocritical of the JPonry people, is say you are a bard or a red mage... some job they need to build that good party, they will bend on their rule and invite you, plenty of times i've done /sea whoever after being invited by a jp.. only to find a jponry comment..

i always tell them no thanks and explain as best as i can that it's because of their comment.

yes, jponry is rude and offensive, however you try to justify it.
 Lakshmi.Jaguarx
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By Lakshmi.Jaguarx 2010-03-28 15:53:44
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
You guys are reading into things that you should not be, and it's maddening to watch. Applying your definition of polite/rude speech or behavior across language lines is extremely dangerous, and I think it's a telling aspect of human nature that the default assumption when presented with ambiguity is to assume hostility.

Just look at any human's natural reaction when people are talking in front of them in a language they can't understand. ("Are you guys talking ***about me?") Why do we always assume that?

"jp only" is a rude statement in English. It's even arguably racist. From a Western perspective. But the auto-translator was written for the English release, by English-speakers. It is a tremendous pain in the *** to use in Japanese because certain functionality, like the ability to type a few letters and auto-complete the token -- features that make the entire system in English -- are missing entirely or unreliable in the JP release. If the word "only" is the solitary English term you've learned in school to describe what you're trying to say, you use it. You don't sit there wondering if the second-order implications of the one word you know might sound rude or racist in the other person's language.

There are many reasons that Japanese players may want to only play with other Japanese players. Many of these reasons may not be racist. They may be reasons that, like the problems with the JP auto-trans function, you are incapable of knowing. There are legitimate racists among the JP player base, but they are no more numerous than among EN players. However, approaching a situation with the assumption of racist hostility does nothing but make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Example: in another forum the other day, someone asked me to translate something a Japanese player said. They "rudely" dropped party with no warning, said something evidently "racist" in English, and "stormed off." The English-speaking players launched into a massive diatribe about xenophobic, elitist, thorny, hostile JP players, with some people who supposedly spoke Japanese jumping in to "translate" the JP users' statements into something that verified the original assumption.

In actuality, they didn't speak JP at all. They made it up. Or they only barely spoke JP, and filled in the blanks with their own imaginations. What the JP player actually said was that there was a sudden emergency in his family, and he needed to log out. In the polite tense. With apologies. But by that point, the thread was so self-absorbed in righteous indignation that they didn't want to hear it.

Taking what is a simple misunderstanding in phrasing and arguing backwards, all the way through centuries of history to make sweeping statements like "Japan is a closed society," with some stroke of finality as though you're qualified to define an entire nation in one sentence, is itself just as racist as what you're accusing other people of.


Every time I read your responses Jaerik I feel like I'm reading something straight out of a scholarly journal. Dude you are ridiculously smart. lol

I need to have you help/give me ideas when I'm typing up my 15~25 page papers for English 438. >_>

:P
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