Maat's Cap ...N Smn Burns... >_>

There is. I can't recall the name. Something like, eh, Soemthing Show. I think...


I had started one, but I became really busy a day or two after I started getting members, so it died. CharmFightLeave was the name =P

Again, This is all on the basis of opinion. There is no solid argument on smn burning other than "I don't feel like partying" You can call it efficiency, but I find there to be social repercussions with it. (again Opinion)

Saying that most archetypes are the same at 75 is an ignorant statement wrought from this sort of thinking. Some jobs are similar yes, some are easier to pick up than others. Using your logic

Player 1 and Player 2 are of equal skill.

Player 1 levelled up drg, and then smn burned rng from 1-75

Player 2 levelled up rng to 75 with parties

Player 1 and Player 2 are given the same gear and thrown into a party

Player 1 and Player 2 parse the same, and play the jobs with the exact same efficiency for exp/hr.

You can read up on a job fully, but reading is nothing like playing it.

Well, one things for certain. Everyone with Maat's cap tried their best to get the fastest EXP they could at the time. Back when sky mobs and such were still all the rage they went there because it was the fastest exp/merits. When TOAU came out, they moved there just like everyone else. When WoTG introduced E. Ron and allowed you to easily sync 37-42 and make 25k+ an hour, they went there... When they aren't broke and can afford a k club for their PL, they take on chigoe burns to net 40k+ exp per hour... Regardless of how they do it, everyone always goes for the fastest exp they can get when they are able to. So yea... It makes sense some of them would smn burn. Who really cares though? It keeps the players that lack skill to play the job, capped skill levels and gear for their current level out of your exp party since they're all astral burning in the jungles or the tunnel.

And of course with my above example the 2 jobs would be at the same combat skill.

lol i typed [ s] without the space after E. Ron and it striked out the rest of that post.

If anything, level sync as a whole has made this new generation of FFXI players newbs. If you wanna be that specific about it, players started losing their edge gained from exp pt's after level sync came out. They can just skip the areas with hard mobs now, so they don't understand how crucial erase, dispel, slow, elegy, etc etc can be. I was in a pt the other day with a brd/whm who thought casting elegy was a waste of their time... keep in mind they spent 80% of their time standing around casting nothing at all...

Which is exactly my point, Yes bad players will always be bad but smn burning has created many more bad people than standard partying has.

I won't argue the social repercussions because they do exist... illogically, what they do. The rest is not opinion. 40k/hr plus skillup time is less time spent than an average person's time spent EXPing and skilling with pickup groups and solo, ie more efficient. Even if you alternate leeching and burning it's better than most can do, though some can match it (Vegetto gets jobs to 75 in like 3 weeks, for example).
No, using selective reading. I acknowledged that some jobs are not conducive to endgame play straight out of capping your skills. I believe I mentioned PUP.

Nonetheless, all jobs do fall under the DD/Tank/Healer/Support archetypes or combinations thereof. Arguing otherwise would be... and ignorant statment.

Shall I make a list?

Subjob abilities not included, Support is both offensive and defensive.

WAR: DD, Tank
MNK: DD, Tank
WHM: Healer, Support
RDM: All
BLM: DD, Support
THF: DD, Tank? (Collab/eva tanking)
PLD: Tank, DD, Support
DRK: DD, Tank, Support
BST: DD
BRD: Support
RNG: DD, unwilling tank =P
SAM: DD, Tank
NIN: DD, Tank, Support
DRG: DD, Healer, can play a makeshift tank under pressure
SMN: DD, Healer, Support
BLU: All
COR: Support, DD
PUP: DD, Support, Healer (Automaton)
DNC: DD, Support, Healer... tank but a poor one past the early levels of EXP, sadly. No CE generation will do that.
SCH: DD, Support, Healer

Pretty sure I got all of that right. Any job from the above will give you at least some idea how to play the other jobs in its archetype given exposure to that aspect of the job. Physical and Magical DD may require a lesser split, but not a full archetype each.

...and after I type this I realize you said most archetypes are the same at 75, which is lolwut and not what I've said at all.

SMNburning doesn't change your skillset. It does not make bad players, only leave them at the level they were at.

It makes lazy players with bad mindsets. Why bother doing your best in a party, if you don't get invites you can always smn burn.

If smn burning was not a factor a bad player would have to try and improve or simply not get invites and levels. (I suppose they could solo, but that's a whole different kettle of fish)

You say that like bad players didn't reach 75 on a regular basis before SMNburning. Those who don't know any better aren't going to complain when they get people of equal skillsets. Further, since when does SMNburning create an apathetic EXP mindset? ***'s been around since the human factor was introduced to the game, ie day *** one.

Even a good player is bad at their job when they don't know it. I challenge any of you to log onto an account with level 75 PUP when you've never played the job before and try to parse a decent number. If done right, you can parse higher than a war in merits, but if you see one of them rare good sams, you won't get close... But it's a VERY good example of one of those jobs that if you didn't level it the proper way, you will NOT understand it.

There is far more people with the apathetic mindset, and it is a far more exaggerated mindset now.

Also in reply to your post about archtypes:

Player 1 and Player 2 are of equal skill.

Player 1 levelled up pld, and then smn burned nin from 1-75

Player 2 levelled up nin to 75 with parties

Player 1 and Player 2 are given the same gear and thrown into a party on nin

Player 1 and Player 2's parties are as efficient as each other, and both tanks are as good as each other.

Do you think that is plausible? They are both Tank, DD and Support according to your list.

Half right. I even noted earlier that PUP is one job you won't play effectively out of SMNburning it. It's too intricate. Such jobs are the notable exception to the rule. The rest goes back to my archetype spiel that I've already brought up 3 times or so. If you have prior knowledge of the archetype you're ok, if not get your *** out there and learn the job before you do anything serious with it.

No, it's not plausible. I said competent, not up to the level of an equal player who has months of in and out experience with the job. Selective reading isn't going to get you anywhere, ok? You're not an automatic expert given archetypal knowledge, you're just competent once given a small amount of time to work with the job. I've been saying that the entire time.

Here's one for you:

Player 2 has only just dinged 75 and is about to begin his era as a NIN/DRK tank at endgame. Player 1 joins him on this journey and knows how to count to 3. Who does a better job?

Which most people who SMN burn don't do. Levelling a job up the traditional way will give you a greater understanding of a job than reading about it, or playing a similar job. That understanding can be nearly always translated into skill. (Don't get me wrong, I've seen awful awful paladins who refuse to sub war because they want to play the game how they like, and then complain about not getting invites)

Those players are the ones who weren't going to be competent anyway. If you won't learn a job in a reasonable amount of time at 75 you weren't going to learn it by grinding out EXP to 75 either.

PUP: DD, Support, Healer (Automaton)

^Your "archetype" of this job is wrong, though.
If you've played Warrior, Black Mage, Red Mage, White Mage, Ranger, Paladin and Thief... You still won't understand how to play PUP. PUP is basically a hybrid of all of these jobs, in a sense. There's honestly no job that can prepare you for playing it, you just have to learn it independently and not let prior experience from other jobs hinder your playability. Once you let go of that notion of the job matching an archetype, you'll be dishing out those 2k+ ranger ws's and the blizzard IV's that match most mediocre to good black mage freeze II's in damage.

But PUP really isnt the only job you need to play to know... Red Mage, Paladin, even arguably warrior you all need to play to know the extensive amount of roles. I guess it's easiest to say that jobs that fill multiple roles will require a unique learning curve. Any job like sam and mnk are a dime a dozen, played one and you've played them all.

Miss this the first (and second) time around?

Easier jobs come faster, yes. Everything else is a matter of time... PUP has such a learning curve that that amount of time exceeds what is reasonable in my mind for burning a job (the time it would take to cap skills).

Someone without understanding of Paladin for example would never get to 75 if Smn burning was not implemented into the game. (without massive time spent soloing, I don't like campaign but that's for a different discussion)

Nonetheless, they could reach 75 without it. You vastly overrate the time it takes to solo a job to 75 these days. Also, back to parties who don't know better taking less capable players. It does happen, and that's probably a small boost to the hypothetical PLD's EXP/hr.

Contradict much?

There are many jobs you won't be able to play properly without having experienced them in many different situations. Example: Red Mage is one of the most leveled jobs. Everyone and their mother has RDM 75... Now... Of those tens of thousands of RDM's.... How many of them can tank? Even the ones who have pld leveled... or nin leveled... Most of them still can't pull it off when RDM has been and always will be one of the best tanks you can use if they're not incompetent.

Archetype means nothing when it comes to meeting the need for a certain situation.

Even though they took Flash away from RDM, it's still a super-tank. Sleep, Sleep II, Dispel rotation is almost unmatched for enmity gain... It really is a shame we don't get that flash spell anymore though.

For ***'s sake, I mentioned there are exceptions due to complexity. Learn to read and get off my *** already. Anybody can play a pinkmage if they've leveled another mage or two, a truly competent RDM is in the same field as PUP. So is a BLU who does more than spam the "Big 3". etc, etc. Can we stop now?

Nope, not until you fully understand that the more we talk the more jobs you're going to add to your "exceptions" list. A theory isn't true if holes keep getting poked into it :P

Basically, a player will never be as good at their job unless they have properly learned it. Regardless of skill. A players skill at playing a job only determines how fast they'll catch up to the curve. Even an idiot will eventually master their job.

Give me a WAR, DRK, PLD, MNK, WHM, SAM, THF, BRD, COR, DNC, NIN, RDM, SCH, or RNG and a few hours to play with them, and I will be competent with them. Let me repeat that. Competent. Only competent. I think that's the part you're missing. There will be players far better than me at them, but I will at least know enough to not completely suck at them. Given additional time, I will be even better. Given a lot of time I will even properly learn the job! This does not necessarily arise from EXP though, as EXP has a nasty habit of encouraging different behaviours different from those at 75.
Exactly. I have a measure of skill playing DRG. I can apply that skill towards playing WAR, SAM, DRK, or MNK in a DD role. I catch up to the curve reasonably quickly. Do you understand what I'm saying here? I won't excel, but I certainly won't embarass myself after a while.

How can you not see that you're saying the same thing as me from the other end? >.< If I didn't say a job above, I either have extensive experience with it or am not immediately confident of my ability to learn the job in a short period of time.
Sadly, FFXI has led me to doubt this >.<

I doubt that, seriously. You name me one that has, I'll name you 20 that haven't.

Edited it now that I'm paying attention.

No, I don't see what you're saying. If anything, it's counter productive to play one job like another. You shouldn't be playing DRK like you play your DRG... Same with WAR or MNK. SAM is a maybe, as it can be quite similar to DRG if you play it the same way... Since DRG's only know how to sub SAM nowdays.

You won't be GOOD at a job unless you learn it for what it is. Yes, they're all DD's, but they ALL do damage through different methods. Learn the job independently to be better at it.

I'm not saying good though, I'm saying competent. There's a difference.

Certain basic principles apply to all of the above jobs. Defensive subs, JAs, and equipment should be used in specific situations. Offensive abilities (WS included) should be employed whenever viable, but not to the point of getting yourself killed. The names differ, the move sets differ, but the fundamental principles remain the same. For the above, such principles would include things like wearing ACC and Haste to TP in while wearing ACC (or not, depending on the WS - this is where you do your homework, as I've mentioned before) and mods/Attack on WS. Diabolic Eye and Aggressor have similar properties and should be used in similar situations. Unique factors like Berserk, Jump, Souleater, and the nature of individual weaponskills (RR vs KJ vs SC anyone?) are the distinguishing factors that require those hours to develop competence. Further time leads to being good at the job, more time still leads to being truly skilled.

EDIT: DRG/BLU DRG/RDM DRG/WHM wassup (I leveled DRG for the soloability and wyvern mostly), but if you want me to be pure DD, *** yeah I'm gonna sub SAM. 6-hit + Haste + free TP is DD crack. Yes there's /NIN for a few situations... I'm probably going to be on a different job for those though.

Well it seems like even you understand that every job is different and just because you are really good at one DD doesn't mean you'll be good at all the others. It's a bit contradictive to what you said about archetypes, but at least you finally admitted they're all unique and all require their own skillset to properly play them... It's not just a matter of having played a job that fills the same role... Each job will always have key differences that need to be understood.

Also... What prepares a player for thief or ninja? Two more jobs that are entirely unique. People wouldn't be able to keep their shadows up (most people can't anyways) without playing nin to at least 37 for the sub, so it proves its uniqueness more than any other melee in my opinion. Thief is also a very situational job. You can't really learn how to play it by playing any other job, and it's just another DD, right?