Endgame: What Job Are YOU Locked Into?

most of the time, Whm

The fallacies in your argument are amazing. I don't think I could pick them all apart if you gave me an entire day to do so. Long story short you're prioritizing the player above the group at potential risk of the collective's well-being; you're also presenting false depictions of the opposing argument (not a need, but if there's no motive wtf are you doing there?) and implying that most any setup will perform with a favorable outcome in any given situation.

The latter in particular is laughable and calls to mind a certain Sky shell I ran with on off days for a while. They had 2 RDMs, one WHM (who is in a similar position to myself and thus could always be there), and... no BRDs? I think one BRD. Three BLM if we all showed up. If everyone had turned up on the jobs that wanted, we'd have had one tank, one RDM, one or two BLM, no BRD, and the rest of the alliance would have been DDs of varying quality. To put it simply, anything tougher than Genbu would have been impossible to kill unless you're into losing 20k EXP every event.

You may have a nifty little setup where you get a functional group no matter what everyone comes on, but I'm getting two things from that. One, you're a lucky SOB and two, you've got more bodies in your linkshell than you know what to do with.

I'm not saying you should play jobs you hate, but there are times where you're better off playing a job you don't love as much as another just because it's of more use in that situation. It's better for the group as a whole, and if it makes the difference between a win and a loss it's entirely possible that you're happier playing the less desirable job. ***'s wierd like that sometimes. I'm not saying one player will make or break an event (though sometimes it could), but it adds up. Ideally jobs work out in such a way that you're not always stuck on less fun jobs, but instead they're rotated in. If that's not how it's working out for you, do something about it.

Not really stuck in a job on a personal note. 13 level 75 jobs ='s I look at what's already at an event and based on what's there I come as a useful job of my choosing. (Technically you could say I have 12 75's because one of the 13 is bard and I refuse to play bard, my bard doesn't exist... but I joined the LS I'm in right now with them being aware of that, lol).

Generally I go to events on: Blu, Pld, Drg, Blm in that order for top 3, anything else is random and more or less up to how I feel that day.

Perhaps you don't understand. I'll put it another way. The whole point of doing fights is to win. The point of this entire game is winning fights. So to play this game you need to win fights. Unless you're an rmt or just craft only. So you could say that if you really believe you don't need to win fights then at that point you have no reason to play.

And really need is subjective. Need for what. Do I really need 3 meals a day? No. Do I really want to will it make me happier. Yes. In a way you can say nothing is a need. Only that certain things are necessary for other things. I need to fight byakko to get his panties.

Feel free, I very much like discussions about logic and reason. Please explain to me this: If a collective, something that is an abstraction, is made up of real individuals, why would you think it best to prioritize something that doesn't exist at the risk of real players?

I propose, that if the goal of the game is fun, that the "LS" as an abstraction can't have fun, only the individual players in the LS can have fun.

Do you agree?

My question is... whats the point in being in any type of LS that does some form of endgame events if you don't want to win? Last I checked; most people join endgame ls's to get gear. To get gear you kinda need to win, no? I mean, ***have I been doing it wrong all this time?

Only other way to get gear endgame wise is to buy it but the LS you buy from still needs to "win"

Ok so, what you are telling me is this.

You need to fight Byakko, because you play this game, and the object of this game is to win fights like Byakko. Am I correct?

Why then do you need to play this game? ... do you see where this is going yet?

We can take it all the way up and eventually where we will end up is you telling me that you do it because you want to do it, and that is the point where I say, then you are not forced to. That comes right back to my first post to you where I said you do it because you want to.

Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you now?

No obviously you have no clue. The example was Byakko, an "endgame" fight. This thread is about ENDGAME not some social LS. As I said earlier: whats the point in being in any type of LS that does some form of endgame events if you don't want to win?

The collective is made up of real individuals other than yourself that have real interests in winning the fight rather than saying "We gave it our best shot." If you could create a magic gauge that measured happiness among the members of your linkshell and gauged the "group happiness" of your linkshell out of this information, which situation would score higher?

1) You go on the job you want to play as and the fight terminates in failure as a direct result of your job choice.

2) You go on a job you like, but not as much as your main or whatever you felt like playing that day. The linkshell emerges victorious.
Dear god no, that's not what he's been saying at all. For somebody who loves logic and reasoning you're awfully bad at both applying basic reasoning and understanding basic logic.

Now your just purposefully picking out what you want to hear.

People play this game cause they need to kill stuff!!! Get gear and kill more stuff. It is the entire point of the game. Byakoo was merely an example of a specific mob for a specific gear.

Again need is subjective. If you want to get really really technical you don't need 1 goddamn thing. However I like playing this game. I like playing it well. In order to do that it is necessary to do certain things.

This doesn't even get into group interactions and how to do stuff with them you need to well DO STUFF WITH THEM.

Get it yet?

I'm sorry, I can create no magic gauge and I can't measure the "group happiness" without measuring the individuals in the group. In order to come up with any kind of "overall fun" statistic, you would need to go and ask the INDIVIDUALS if they had fun. It's not possible to ask the group itself, and the reason it's not possible is because "groups" are concepts that only exist in our minds.

It is absolutely illogical to claim that it's ok to sacrifice the individuals for the group.. and then somehow expect the fictional group to be better off as a whole.

I think you're just in denial now and don't want to admit it.

I'm getting a kick out of watching you try to squirm out of this. :p

Please continue to tell me why you need to play FFXI, as opposed to why you want to, it's pretty cool to watch the mental gymnastics you go through.

The key point you're missing is there's more than one individual in a linkshell. If you can't or won't grasp that fact and the concept of putting the group above oneself, I have nothing further to say to you because I don't enjoy arguing in circles with trolls/idiots.

Well.. I used the plural form of individual so I would say that statement takes into account more than one individual. Don't you?

You are also not talking about being selfless, it's not "oneself". You are saying you want to sacrifice individuals for the fictional collective.. there is a BIG difference and your trying to appeal to virtue to mask saying that it's ok to hurt people.

You're a troll and I'm done here.

I could say the same of you. Here ya go

"need (nd)
n.
1. A condition or situation in which something is required or wanted: crops in need of water; a need for affection.
2. Something required or wanted; a requisite: "Those of us who led the charge for these women's issues ... shared a common vision in the needs of women" (Olympia Snowe).
3. Necessity; obligation: There is no need for you to go.
4. A condition of poverty or misfortune: The family is in dire need.
v. need·ed, need·ing, needs
v.aux.
To be under the necessity of or the obligation to: They need not come.
v.tr.
To have need of; require: The family needs money. See Synonyms at lack.
v.intr.
1. To be in need or want.
2. To be necessary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"


1. Yep pretty sure I Need to kill certain mobs in order to get certain gear and mobs in general to lvl up. Which is required for just about doing anything in this game.

2. Oh look it says want in there. Gosh could it be that wants can be needs!?! Say it ain't so

3. Obligations you say? What you mean like when a group of people rely on you to help on something ig!?! Oh my yep fits there too.

4. Yeah not exactly the need we were talking about. Either way 3/4 ain't bad.

And then the verb forms are pretty much the same thing.

No, please stay! Let's keep talking! rofl!

Perhaps I will go on to explain to you that when you hold a concept in your mind and you have factual evidence that runs counter to that concept you must always throw out the concept.

For instance you see a stick going into water. To you eye the stick looks bent so you form an idea that the stick is bent, however you later discover that the stick is straight (by perhaps running your finger along it) it would them be illogical to continue believing (or attempting to convince others) that the stick is bent. You must discard the idea that the stick is bent when you have come to a conclusion that it is not.

Believing that you *need* to play this game is exactly like that.

Yeah my question has yet to be answered. This game isn't all about endgame, obviously. There is plenty of other ***you can do if gear isn't your high priority.

Like I said, this thread is related to endgame LS's.

If your endgame LS lost nearly every fight you've attempted even if you can go as whatever job you want, why even be in the shell? Davse(according to posts) enjoys fighting mobs and being in an endgame so to him that's his REASON and NEED for playing.

Who are you to justify someone's need for playing? Some people play cause that's all they enjoy doing, some people even enjoy it so much it's a need for them to enjoy life.

Need doesn't necessarily mean required.

I alternate between brd and whm. -_-;;

I will usually go as SAM seeing that, on average, I have tremendously more endgame experience with it.

Although I used SCH for Salvage due to our lack of healers (I don't typically use SCH as nuke and people know this) I had a lot of fun w/it but it's not something I can really recommend due to SCH's need for cells that WHMs typically don't need. The feeling of near-uselessness without my JAs pissed me off on more than one occasion.

Everyone arguing needs to follow my philosophy. Don't level jobs you know you won't want to use in endgame.

I haven't actually gotten to your questions or comments because I mostly agree with you and I was trying to illustrate how it's illogical to believe you are forced to do something voluntary. Participating in endgame, or playing the game at all is a voluntary act. I think you got distracted by the overall mechanics of the game without looking at the big picture. Your down looking at why pld's needs support when you need to take a step back and ask yourself, why there are they even any pld's at all.

I mean we can try to obscure the meanings of words, but thats not going to result in anything productive. I believe that it's really not relevant or necessary to go in and redefine everything either. Let me explain why. In order to convey meaningful messages to others you first need to agree on terms. I can't say "white" and have you read "orange" then expect you know know what color to paint my house, right?

I have been consistent in using the word "need" and "forced" to imply something that is a requirement or non-voluntary, and I believe I've done a pretty good job at describing that, so I don't think it's necessary for me to.. you know.. start from scratch and go back over it.. if it *was* in all honestly confusing to anyone, well sorry.. but I just don't have the feeling anyone is confused at this point.

It's kinda pointless anyhow.. why beat a dead horse, right? Lets move on.

For me its a toss between thf and cor. I don't like to play nin, so its usually a question of do we need more DD (or TH) or support. I really should level more jobs, at least one pure DD...

I guess I'm lucky. I usually go whichever job I feel like going, even though i have both BRD and RDM.

But our ls try to not lock ppl on any jobs, except for our WHM's lol, but they pretty much only have WHM lv and merited and enjoy coming as WHM.

this +1

I hate it when people dont want to come as a certain job, but they have no problems lotting gear for that job, instead of letting someone who is stuck on that job get it first.

Exactly, especially ones that whine when you ask for that job.

Like people who only play PLD for only Campaign after crying for dying on Ultima on his PLD and threatens to quit the LS cause he died on PLD and won't come as PLD for events anymore but will gladly lot homam FOR PLD. (true story)

Needless to day he's not in LS anymore but that's besides the point.

what was he thinking when he leveled pld, they like tank stuff and DIE....

my argument exactly... funny thing is he "likes pld"

How can you like PLD and hate dying? isn't it usually the PLDs who die first? Or suppose to... Ya know, the saying... The Captain always goes down with the ship.

I'm not sure that's really very sound. What he's saying is that you need to place limits on yourself in order to avoid people attempting to lock you into a job.

I would say rather it is more preferable to simply not associate with people who try to lock you in, because if people choose this path, then the practice of locking players into jobs by LS's will end when those that do find they have no more members.

Several people now have said their LS's don't do it.. good for them.

It almost sounds like retaliatory you know.. like someone saying.. "Well if yo didn't want to be Rdm ya shouldn't have leveled Rdm. Now git your punk *** on Rdm or git kicked from my shell!" and thats not very fair at all.

BRD was my last job to 75 yet ... its muled.

Litterally stuck on PLD and SAM, not gonna complain as they are my favorites jobs by far but i find it funny.

Before i leveled PLD i was stuck on BLM though.