Maybe they want a stage 4 prime and see it would take 175 days of 20,000 gallimaufry and throw in the towel? Why can't they aim for end game progress while being casual? (This will be an enjoyable hypothetical circlejerk. /s) This ***takes too long - you don't even do Limbus, right? Why not?
Idk what a casual player wants, but from my experience as a 'casual' in other games, I see what the endgame looks like and how long/how much it takes to get there. ***in this game is slow.
Pick whatever imaginary situation you want:
a) I can't commit to more than 30 mins at once
b) My schedule is too erratic and a static doesn't work (always a 9-5 office slave talking about scheduing not being an issue, lul)
c) I don't like other people
d) Anything else you can dream of for a hypothetical victim
New Trust System - Who Will You Upgrade First?
New trust system - Who will you upgrade first?
426 days for a stage 5 at 20k/run or 568 days at 15k/run. Now remember, you're also expected to have at least 3 geared jobs so we looking at 1278-1704 days or 3,5-4,6 years.
Casual AF.
Casual AF.
Shichishito said: »
Now remember, you're also expected to have at least 3 geared jobs
You're a solo player. Who TF is expecting anything from you? Your mom?
Absurdity of these claims aside, even if you are playing with other people (and not soloing, therefore the numbers make no *** sense), are there people who are really saying "you can't play with us until you have 3 jobs, each of which has a stage 5 prime"? Uh...who?
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Ranoutofspace said: »
Maybe they want a stage 4 prime and see it would take 175 days of 20,000 gallimaufry and throw in the towel?
So a solo player would get frustrated that they can't solo a weapon that comes from group content and only is strong when it is powered up by other people's buffs in endgame setting? Instead of just joining other groups, forming their own, or just making a different class of weapons? This scenario doesn't make any sense.
Ranoutofspace said: »
Why can't they aim for end game progress while being casual?
You keep using the words "solo" and "casual" interchangeably and it's kind of deceptive.
Solo means alone. Casual implies non-hardcore/non-static player who progresses at his own pace. Plays when he wants, takes breaks here and there, isn't desperate for progress, just plays the game for the story and activities etc. I'm a casual player who participates in endgame, and does some activities solo. I don't have a set group, don't have a static, don't multibox, don't play more than a couple of hours a day or under 10 a week, sometimes goes days without logging in, etc. I don't grind events until my butt hurts from sitting too long. I don't care if I miss out on VanaBout Rewards or forget to use my canteen or don't use my sortie plate. I just play at my own pace. That's entirely different from "solo".
Can you name a single endgame event you can accomplish successfully solo in this game? You can casually do PUG 8/9Boss, Segments, Gaol, Dynamis-D, Omen, etc without making a commitment to a group. But you can't really do many of those on your own completely solo (at least not successfully with large progress), unless your character is really good, or the content is dated (like Omen). And for it to have gotten to that point, you must have joined some groups to make that kind of progress, which is the opposite of what you are implying (a completely solo person trying to progress). Casual <> Solo
Ranoutofspace said: »
Idk what a casual player wants, but from my experience as a 'casual' in other games, I see what the endgame looks like and how long/how much it takes to get there. ***in this game is slow.
I mean it does take longer for a casual player to make progress, but that's the same for anything. A hardcore gym bro will make more progress than a casual gym guy. A workaholic will generally make more money and progress career-wise faster than someone who works casually for a living without putting a lot of effort into it. That's just a function of more time = more results. How are you seriously arguing that a person who is not willing to put in the same time as someone else should be able to progress faster because of a limitation in their own circumstances? It's an MMO, why would you think that game model would benefit a person who chooses to play alone and less?
Ranoutofspace said: »
Pick whatever imaginary situation you want:
a) I can't commit to more than 30 mins at once
b) My schedule is too erratic and a static doesn't work (always a 9-5 office slave talking about scheduing not being an issue, lul)
c) I don't like other people
d) Anything else you can dream of for a hypothetical victim
a) I can't commit to more than 30 mins at once
b) My schedule is too erratic and a static doesn't work (always a 9-5 office slave talking about scheduing not being an issue, lul)
c) I don't like other people
d) Anything else you can dream of for a hypothetical victim
TBH, none of these arguments make any sense, and sounds like fake outrage.
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Well if you're not grinding to be accepted into "elite" groups then there is still SE with their odyssey design that is balanced around having 3 different jobs.
Shichishito said: »
Well if you're not grinding to be accepted into "elite" groups then there is still SE with their odyssey design that is balanced around having 3 different jobs.
Yeah, SE who famously said you need to have 3 prime weapons for all the jobs you're soloing Gaol on.
...Before prime weapons were released. To take advantage of the prime aftermath. From all your trust buffs.
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
So a solo player would get frustrated that they can't solo a weapon that comes from group content and only is strong when it is powered up by other people's buffs in endgame setting?
Maletaru doesn't realize you can have standards for yourself, and Buukki up in arms about swapping words around when my main point was the content is too slow and boring to slog through. If you solo, it sucks. If you're casual, it sucks. If you're elitist, it sucks. It all around sucks.
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Ranoutofspace said: »
my main point was the content is too slow and boring to slog through. If you solo, it sucks. If you're casual, it sucks. If you're elitist, it sucks. It all around sucks.
There is no reason to play FFXI if you ever get to this point.
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I enjoy hanging with the boys and getting ***done and making progress but it is boring. Might as well hop off the forums and the internet as a whole if you aren't ready to hear some complaints.
Shichishito said: »
I don't have one but from what I read prime sword for instance does best on BLU when you're solo multi SCing.
I don't have a sword either, and I don't play solo (1 character) BLU, but i think you'd be hard pressed to make long SCs with BLU by itself. Even if you can cap magic haste, without samurai roll and with no mythic AM3, I doubt doing more than 2, possibly 3 SCs is really possible.
If you want a casual solo experience that isn't grindy...why in the absolute *** wouldn't you pick FFXI? I agree with "there are lots of games with a hetter ROI".
By design. It's an MMO, not a mobile game for tweens with a weak grasp of delayed gratification.
Shouldn't it be moderately easy with your average 2026 gear and Hoxne Ampulla?
I haven't tried myself but was assuming it to be not that hard to pull off even without Mythic AM3.
I haven't tried myself but was assuming it to be not that hard to pull off even without Mythic AM3.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Yeah, SE who famously said you need to have 3 prime weapons for all the jobs you're soloing Gaol on.
...Before prime weapons were released. To take advantage of the prime aftermath. From all your trust buffs.
...Before prime weapons were released. To take advantage of the prime aftermath. From all your trust buffs.
The content is there, it's still afaik considered end game, tougher than what came after and none of the higher tiers have been cleared solo by anyone.
SE balanced odyssey around bringing 3 jobs and (I could be wrong here) I expect it to still be balanced around 3 jobs even when it becomes eventually more accessible for soloing.
Top tier equipment will also always open up the possibility to solo the next vengeance tier sooner than without top tier equipment.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
I don't have a sword either, and I don't play solo (1 character) BLU, but i think you'd be hard pressed to make long SCs with BLU by itself. Even if you can cap magic haste, without samurai roll and with no mythic AM3, I doubt doing more than 2, possibly 3 SCs is really possible.
The sword can also be equipped by RDM and PLD, both of which have access to bonanza shield.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
If you want a casual solo experience that isn't grindy...why in the absolute *** wouldn't you pick FFXI? I agree with "there are lots of games with a hetter ROI".
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
If you want a casual solo experience that isn't grindy...why in the absolute *** wouldn't you pick FFXI?
FFXI hasn't always been this grindy. Altough I guess, at least if I'm to follow the shared opinions over communities like FFXIAH (which is absolutely relevant, but probably not a good "mirror" of the whole FFXI population out there), those periods in time weren't very liked.
And of course those "rhythms" wouldn't be manageable at all with nowadays' dev staff and the pace at which they release new stuff.
Game would be dead by now probably if it kept going with the current pace of new stuff released AND the non-grindiness that was reached during those windows of time I'm referring to.
Asura.Sechs said: »
FFXI hasn't always been this grindy.
I don't know about this revisionist history. Before, you couldn't do a thing endgame without a dedicated group, and you had to compete with the group for everything. Making a Relic was damn near impossible, you paid the leader to fund dynamis runs so he could get a relic while you lotted shitty armor for mnd+4. Hope nobody else needed that (RDM hat) or you're fked. Making a Mythic was ultra grindy early on, and Salvage sets also took a long time to make. Plus, Salvage early on was pretty hard for most players. How many players can you recall had 5/5 Usukane or Ares set within 6-9 months of Salvage release? Camping HNMs was an every-night kind of thing and you had to compete with the server; how many people in the LS got Ridills, Herald Gaiters, Drings etc? Sky was also a slog; if you missed the event you were ***-out. You acquired dumb LS points to allow you to lot stuff, and everyone was saving them up for Wlegs, Byakko's Haidate, and Osode. No individual person could work towards that gear without having to compete with dozens of other people. Even leveling past 65~ was a nightmare, especially if you were something like BLM, BST, DRG w/e. You never got invited to stuff unless you got creative with Flan or all-BST parties. Hitting 75 back then felt like you beat the game (pre-abyssea Dominion Ops Parties). FFXI may not have seemed grindy, but my memory is very clear on that era. Your progress was ultra slow in endgame.
Compared to today, you can make progress every single day just being a casual non-static player. You don't need a 7-day-a-week static to make a Stage 4/5 Prime. You don't need a static to build any REMA. You can accomplish most goals on your own just saving your resources and plugging away at it. It's a way different game now.
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I think my words unwillingly mislead you Buukki.
Huge WOT on FFXI history
So tl;dr has the game always been as grindy as it is in the last year(s)? Yes, with a few notable exceptions in some windows of time where everything was very accelerated and the effort:reward was quite different from what FFXI got us old timers used to.
Those windows of time kinda spoiled a lot of us, I'm afraid.
Personally I liked those windows of time and I think they're more in line with how gaming changed in the current times, but at the same time I can't deny those rhythms wouldn't be sustainable with the amount of people working on the game these days. If they kept the "acceleration" at those levels with the current pace of content release, game would be dead already by now probably.
Huge WOT on FFXI history
So tl;dr has the game always been as grindy as it is in the last year(s)? Yes, with a few notable exceptions in some windows of time where everything was very accelerated and the effort:reward was quite different from what FFXI got us old timers used to.
Those windows of time kinda spoiled a lot of us, I'm afraid.
Personally I liked those windows of time and I think they're more in line with how gaming changed in the current times, but at the same time I can't deny those rhythms wouldn't be sustainable with the amount of people working on the game these days. If they kept the "acceleration" at those levels with the current pace of content release, game would be dead already by now probably.
Interesting thought experiment here on the chicken and the egg.
Why prepare your character for end game if you are just playing solo? Why grind out muffins or segs just to use trusts to power up your base level T3/T4 gears with minimum potency buffs?
I think maybe just some players like to see their character progress and they would rather do it themselves without any commitments if possible.
For myself, I'm not expecting any trust changes to suddenly make me clear any hard content worth mentioning. The problem is no matter how much stronger they are, most hard content is reliant on specific strategies that trusts can't adapt to, so you will fail 100% of the time unless they can just keep you alive long enough to execute the strat on your own.
Why prepare your character for end game if you are just playing solo? Why grind out muffins or segs just to use trusts to power up your base level T3/T4 gears with minimum potency buffs?
I think maybe just some players like to see their character progress and they would rather do it themselves without any commitments if possible.
For myself, I'm not expecting any trust changes to suddenly make me clear any hard content worth mentioning. The problem is no matter how much stronger they are, most hard content is reliant on specific strategies that trusts can't adapt to, so you will fail 100% of the time unless they can just keep you alive long enough to execute the strat on your own.
Ranoutofspace said: »
I enjoy hanging with the boys and getting ***done and making progress but it is boring. Might as well hop off the forums and the internet as a whole if you aren't ready to hear some complaints.
so, the problem I'm seeing here, with this particular take, and the comments that preceded, you're wanting the devs to cater a game to casual players? A MMO that's been running for going on 24 years now. They already have a game like that, 14, where you can pay your way into the current content and not spend the time/resources on getting caught up.
I'm not going to stand here and pretend that ffxi is friendly to new players, because I think we can all agree it's not. They have made sone changes to make the beginning grind a bit easier, but it still takes loads of time to be a dedicated player, and if you don't have the time for that, that's completely fine, maybe this game just isn't for you.
just reading through the comments, I did want to address the points you made that buukki was commenting on
Pick whatever imaginary situation you want:
a) I can't commit to more than 30 mins at once- then I hate to say it, but maybe ffxi isn't for you, it wasn't even meant to cater to every lifestyle. i feel this sentiment could apply to every one of these comments, but I 'll try to address them individually
b) My schedule is too erratic and a static doesn't work (always a 9-5 office slave talking about scheduing not being an issue, lul)- I know many plyers who have erratic schedules, and they still manage to get ***done. I run a sortie static, but even within that, very few people can be present every single day, so we have a rotating cast of people who sub in, most by players who have erratic schedules. Yes, attending organized events will be challenging, but if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way.
c) I don't like other people- then maybe a MMO isn't for you. this is a pretty obvious answer. why would you want to play a social game if you don't like playing with other people? it's not like ffxi suddenly went from a single player game to a multi player game. this is a disingenuous comment at best.
d) Anything else you can dream of for a hypothetical victim- there's always going to be people who have their complaints about any game, and to that I'd say weigh your options and consider if it's worth your time, if it's not, then move on and don't waste other people's time complaining about why the devs aren't structuring a game specifically to your wants and needs.
I'm not saying any of this to mock you, you seem to have some valid points along the way. if you find content boring, then don't do it, seems pretty straight forward to me. but don't complain that you aren't being invited to end game content if you don't want to put in the work. end game isn't meant for everyone.
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The "Maybe this game isn't for you" in conjunction with the fact that not every game has to cather to EVERYONE and violate the essence of a game to transform it into something it was never meant to be, isn't necessarily a good thing to do.
It's a valid reply to answer most of the points raised so far in this and other threads and quite frankly I find it hard to disagree with this logic.
At the same point though when you're the owner of a "service" which is sustained by monthly fee, when you noticed a considerable amount of the people paying that fee want the game to be something else, is it wrong to try to transform it to cather to these people? Or should you just stay true to it and indirectly say an educated "*** you!" to these people?
I try to put myself into their shoes and if (and it's a big IF) that's the situation at hand, then I guess I can see the motivations behind their actions.
They probably want to transform the game enough to reach the point where this considerable amount of people are pleased by the changes, but not too much to the point that the previous target (which is likely thinning out with every passing day?) are displeased by such changes.
It works in theory but it's like keeping your feet in two pair of shoes. It's a really thin line and it takes very little to misstep into the wrong direction and changing "too much" beyond repair.
Still, while this is a valid concern I think it's a bit too early to be overly worried about it?
It's a valid reply to answer most of the points raised so far in this and other threads and quite frankly I find it hard to disagree with this logic.
At the same point though when you're the owner of a "service" which is sustained by monthly fee, when you noticed a considerable amount of the people paying that fee want the game to be something else, is it wrong to try to transform it to cather to these people? Or should you just stay true to it and indirectly say an educated "*** you!" to these people?
I try to put myself into their shoes and if (and it's a big IF) that's the situation at hand, then I guess I can see the motivations behind their actions.
They probably want to transform the game enough to reach the point where this considerable amount of people are pleased by the changes, but not too much to the point that the previous target (which is likely thinning out with every passing day?) are displeased by such changes.
It works in theory but it's like keeping your feet in two pair of shoes. It's a really thin line and it takes very little to misstep into the wrong direction and changing "too much" beyond repair.
Still, while this is a valid concern I think it's a bit too early to be overly worried about it?
http://www.playonline.com/ff11eu/guide/development/census/2024/
If you think this supertrust system adequately addresses these acknowledged concerns, so be it. I do not.
Quote:
Based on the numbers alone, roughly 60% of respondents were "Very satisfied" or "Satisfied," which greatly outnumbered those who replied "Dissatisfied" or "Very dissatisfied."
However, upon looking into the reasoning behind their responses, we found that the majority of players tended to use the same words in their replies, regardless of their satisfaction level.
The most commonly used words were "solo play," "game content," and "time." As we read the comments, we noticed that many of them wanted us to expand the quantity and breadth of solo play activities, and that they wanted us to do away with entry restrictions based on the number of people for some in-game content.
There were also multiple references to Sortie, with many respondents expressing concern that the content had become too fixated on certain jobs and types of party members.
Many players also replied that they are unable to actively recruit party members due to their individual circumstances, which forces them to play the game solo. Similarly, some players stated that playing the game by themselves limits their ability to access the endgame content, making it hard for them to find things to do within the game. As such, it seems that factors such as these also influenced their responses to the question about the gameplay itself, at least to a certain extent.
However, upon looking into the reasoning behind their responses, we found that the majority of players tended to use the same words in their replies, regardless of their satisfaction level.
The most commonly used words were "solo play," "game content," and "time." As we read the comments, we noticed that many of them wanted us to expand the quantity and breadth of solo play activities, and that they wanted us to do away with entry restrictions based on the number of people for some in-game content.
There were also multiple references to Sortie, with many respondents expressing concern that the content had become too fixated on certain jobs and types of party members.
Many players also replied that they are unable to actively recruit party members due to their individual circumstances, which forces them to play the game solo. Similarly, some players stated that playing the game by themselves limits their ability to access the endgame content, making it hard for them to find things to do within the game. As such, it seems that factors such as these also influenced their responses to the question about the gameplay itself, at least to a certain extent.
If you think this supertrust system adequately addresses these acknowledged concerns, so be it. I do not.
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Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
They already have a game like that, 14, where you can pay your way into the current content and not spend the time/resources on getting caught up.
I think the "maybe this game isn't for you" argument is hard to be perceived anything but condescending when it's directed at people who most likely spent over a decade on said game.
There has been content that was more casual and solo friendly in the past, abyssea for instance. People who argue FFXI always was grindy usually mention HNM era when the release of abyssea was basically admitting that the entire HNM design isn't the way. REMA also became way more casual and solo friendly.
We also have statistics saying that around half of the population prefers to solo. Most "hardcore" players will experience both the hardcore endgame and the casual content while most casuals most likely will never spend a minute on content made specifically for hardcore players.
At some point you could also argue why the casuals should keep sponsoring the creation of content they themselves most likely never going to experience.
[+]
Back when I was doing HNM for 10 hours a day, there were players that logged in and all they did was level jobs, merit and occasional sky/Dyna. The game has always had casual players.
Also if all the casual players quit (huge numbers of JP players are like this btw, most of them use no addons or anything and just play the game normally), you would lose around 40-50% of the population.
If this then lead to server merges of serious endgame players, you would not be able to do anything without waiting 2 hours to get into content. Cause the game has no serious instancing system, and you would have too many serious players competing with you for entrances. This would lead to you quitting too.
Games like this need an eco system, and it is giving next to nothing for casual/solo players (that they know exist, or they would not have added trusts in the first place) right now. The trust updates could have been content, instead it's nontent.
The annoying part is that it's not even hard to give them stuff, just adding more tiers of gear from Ambuscade to work on would be a huge thing alone and would take a few days to add and kept people busy for a long time. Making that fate thing permanent and reducing pop time, boosting rewards so players go "camp" it. Boosting the rewards from Sortie trash mobs, so it's not so soul destroying etc.
I know they have 3 devs, but that's cause SE suck and there are games that make less money that get better support. Imagine having 30-40k people all paying $12 a month, and buying lots of extra stuff and treating them this way.
Also if all the casual players quit (huge numbers of JP players are like this btw, most of them use no addons or anything and just play the game normally), you would lose around 40-50% of the population.
If this then lead to server merges of serious endgame players, you would not be able to do anything without waiting 2 hours to get into content. Cause the game has no serious instancing system, and you would have too many serious players competing with you for entrances. This would lead to you quitting too.
Games like this need an eco system, and it is giving next to nothing for casual/solo players (that they know exist, or they would not have added trusts in the first place) right now. The trust updates could have been content, instead it's nontent.
The annoying part is that it's not even hard to give them stuff, just adding more tiers of gear from Ambuscade to work on would be a huge thing alone and would take a few days to add and kept people busy for a long time. Making that fate thing permanent and reducing pop time, boosting rewards so players go "camp" it. Boosting the rewards from Sortie trash mobs, so it's not so soul destroying etc.
I know they have 3 devs, but that's cause SE suck and there are games that make less money that get better support. Imagine having 30-40k people all paying $12 a month, and buying lots of extra stuff and treating them this way.
Once a game company gets traded on the stock exchange it's a race to the bottom.
These conversations are always funny because they just end up with a bunch of people going in circles speculating about a problem when the problem, bluntly, is THEM: solo players don't remain solo because of logistics, or scheduling, or commitment. It's because they understand the decisions a person has to make about their lives in order to overcome those difficulties tend to select for people they don't very much enjoy interacting with. It's why Abyssea was so revelatory for so many people: it's not that it made the game easier or even less time-consuming, but that it turned endgame into something you could do without enduring the personalities in this thread.
They feel the same way about the GAME as you do. It's YOU they don't want to spend their free time dealing with. I'm sorry if you're just hearing this from me, but this is why automated grouping systems are such a mainstay in successful MMOs: it removes the friction of dealing with the one thing that will invariably destroy the experience of the game you're enjoying.
You're all middle-aged men now. You're old enough to hear this put plainly.
They feel the same way about the GAME as you do. It's YOU they don't want to spend their free time dealing with. I'm sorry if you're just hearing this from me, but this is why automated grouping systems are such a mainstay in successful MMOs: it removes the friction of dealing with the one thing that will invariably destroy the experience of the game you're enjoying.
You're all middle-aged men now. You're old enough to hear this put plainly.
[+]
Shichishito said: »
Sylph.Timepassesbye said: »
They already have a game like that, 14, where you can pay your way into the current content and not spend the time/resources on getting caught up.
I think the "maybe this game isn't for you" argument is hard to be perceived anything but condescending when it's directed at people who most likely spent over a decade on said game.
There has been content that was more casual and solo friendly in the past, abyssea for instance. People who argue FFXI always was grindy usually mention HNM era when the release of abyssea was basically admitting that the entire HNM design isn't the way. REMA also became way more casual and solo friendly.
We also have statistics saying that around half of the population prefers to solo. Most "hardcore" players will experience both the hardcore endgame and the casual content while most casuals most likely will never spend a minute on content made specifically for hardcore players.
At some point you could also argue why the casuals should keep sponsoring the creation of content they themselves most likely never going to experience.
regarding paying your way into content, sure, xi has always had some kind of merc system, but that's not the same as 14 which literally gives you the option to pay cash to start caught up to the current expansion.
regarding the players want to solo comment, there is already plenty of content designed for solo play. I don't believe they should just turn all content into solo friendly content. things like master trials, sortie, oddy bosses, were meant to be played with groups. some of that can translate to smaller groups, or multiboxers, but generally speaking, they doesn't translate well into solo play. and more to the point, it de-incentivizes players from doing group content when they can just solo it to the same effect. dynamis is a perfect example of this. since they introduced more solo friendly instances of dyna, the LS participation in dynamis has plummeted and we all can see the market for dyna gear upgrades and currency has crashed. this also impacts crafters who would use that currency to make their gear, because now people are simply npc-ing the currency because the price is so low on the AH. turning a community based game into a solo one isn't the correct direction for ffxi. most especially when I keep hearing people complain about the auction house being understocked. you can't both play solo and expect people to supply you with goods.
regarding my "this game might not be for you" comment. the comment I replied to, listed time constraints as a reason, but gave no context as to whether their situation changed and time became scarce (a long time player with a situation change) or if the example referenced a new player who didn't want to dedicate the time from the start. I grant that many players, of this 20+ year and game, have likely started families, so their playtime has diminished, so that is certainly something that does happen. but I don't generally find those people to be the ones complaining here.
Shichishito said: »
We also have statistics saying that around half of the population prefers to solo.
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