Jack Of All Trades: A Guide To Red Mage

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Jack of All Trades: A Guide to Red Mage
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-10-03 19:06:26
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Asura.Chiaia said: »
It applies to duration as well. Also your math for figuring out enfeebling duration is off.

((Base Duration × Saboteur) + RDM Enfeebling JPs + RDM Stymie JPs) × (Non Augmented Enfeebling Duration + Gear) x (Augmented Enfeebling Duration + Gear) x (Augments Composure Gear)

Edit: 1k post ***
Doesn't seem "way off", but the 10% bonus from Kishar has a higher value I guess. Your formula doesn't report where the +30 seconds from Merits are calculated btw.
Plus I didn't take into consideration the Composure gear, but I only have 2 pieces in my default set, so that's another 10% more duration I guess.
I only use 5/5 set (50% duration bonus) when I have Stymie up, i.e. for Silence at start.
And it STILL is the first spell to wear off before Frazzle3, Distract3 and Paralyze 2 and way before Slow II which:
1) Don't receive the +20secs from Stymie
2) Don't receive the +40% Set bonus duration


Does this still prove that some of the base durations reported on BG-Wiki are wrong?
Also can you confirm the 12% bonus from Lethargy Gantherots +1 only applies to Potency and doesn't do anything for Duration?
 Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2019-10-03 19:12:20
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Asura.Chiaia said: »
It applies to duration as well. Also your math for figuring out enfeebling duration is off.

((Base Duration × Saboteur) + RDM Enfeebling JPs + RDM Stymie JPs) × (Non Augmented Enfeebling Duration + Gear) x (Augmented Enfeebling Duration + Gear) x (Augments Composure Gear)

Edit: 1k post ***
Doesn't seem "way off", but the 10% bonus from Kishar has a higher value I guess. Your formula doesn't report where the +30 seconds from Merits are calculated btw.
Plus I didn't take into consideration the Composure gear, but I only have 2 pieces in my default set, so that's another 10% more duration I guess.
I only use 5/5 set (50% duration bonus) when I have Stymie up, i.e. for Silence at start.
And it STILL is the first spell to wear off before Frazzle3, Distract3 and Paralyze 2 and way before Slow II which:
1) Don't receive the +20secs from Stymie
2) Don't receive the +40% Set bonus duration


Does this still prove that some of the base durations reported on BG-Wiki are wrong?
Also can you confirm the 12% bonus from Lethargy Gantherots +1 only applies to Potency and doesn't do anything for Duration?
No it doesn't because they are new and when I tested it I forgot to edit the wiki for it just updated some custom addon I have but not at home atm to check the source. Also I updated the post to mention RDM JSE neck, do you not use one?

I forget if the hands applied or not I did most of the testing like 8 months ago at this point. I did retest stuff after the merit change but like I said some of it never made it to the wiki I guess.

Edit: Does this still prove that some of the base durations reported on BG-Wiki are wrong?
Well unless SE nurfed them secretly in the last 8 monthes then no something else must be going on with Odin. I had to test all the durations when I did the 1st test because Sabotaur use to behave very stangly with Dia III pre merit update. So I had to confirm it didn't with other enfeebs. Also the dats from SE still have the listed values also.

Maybe Odin has some kind of forced 1/2 duration resist or something I have not done Odin personally.


Edit 2: I may have an idea but I'll have to do testing again at some point.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-10-03 19:39:21
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Worst case scenario: I'll assume the +30 seconds from merits being applied as the very last thing. It's enough for the purpose of what I'm doing here.
And yeah I completely forgot about the neck, of course I have a +2.
Regardless, here are some updated calculations with my gear:

SP2 Sabo Silence = 421.8 seconds (7mins, 1.8seconds)
Sabo Silence = 263.7 seconds (4mins, 23.7seconds)
no-Sabo Silence = 222.5 seconds (3mins, 42.5seconds)

These durations look a bit longer than what I really get on Odin, but overall they could also be accurate, they feel close enough. My fights last ~12 mins and I normally apply 1x SP2 Sabo Silence + 2 or 3 no-sabo Silences, sooo... it's close enough I guess.

Sabo FrazIII / DistIII = 627.4 seconds (10mins, 27.4seconds)

We're pretty far from the values I get here, very very far. I think the base duration might be 180secs and not 300?

Sabo Paralyze II = 287.1 seconds (4mins, 47.1seconds)

It lasts longer than my Stymie Sabo Silence, so clearly there has to be an error somewhere, maybe the base duration is 180 and not 120?

Sabo Slow II = 400.5 seconds (6mins, 40.5seconds)

It lasts longer than that. I'm not sure how much, but longer. By the time I need to recast Fraz3/Dist3/ParaII I can never reapply Slow2 because the old one is still up.
I think the base duration is at least ~30 seconds longer than the previously mentioned spells, maybe more.



Edit @Chiaia
I don't think Odin has a specific "Reduced duration of debuffs", other than the generic reduced potency of Saboteur as all NMs.
If Odin has something it has to be about specific debuffs and not all.
Either that, or Frazzle/Distract base duration is not 5 mins, at least on NMs.
If you wanna try with me on Asura lemme know, I'm game. I do Odin almost every day, I solo on Normal tipically.
Managed to solo Difficult but takes way too much time for me to bother, at least with my current gear.
 Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2019-10-03 21:13:52
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SE did some kind of change. Going to retest all enfeebs tomorrow night. i did a handle full now and tier 1 frazzle and distract aren't 5 mins anymore either. frazzle 3 and distract 3 had differing times to each other. tomorrow night i can test with my main which has most things, jp, gear, merits vs my alt maybe somethings are not working as intended or maybe just nurfed without telling us

plus i'll havw my spreadsheets/addon with all the testing i did before infront of me
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-10-03 22:35:15
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Unless they changed things in the last month frazzle and distract definitely do have 5 minute base durations.

Merit duration increase and relic duration increase both apply in the same place as duration jp and stymie jp.

Edit: you’re talking about t1 frazzle and distract.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2019-10-03 22:39:31
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Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Near as I can tell, the Composure bonus applies to the whole duration, so I think the formula is now

((<base_duration> * <saboteur modifier>) + <flat duration increase>) * <duration bonus gear> * <composure bonus> * <augmented bonus>

saboteur modifier is:
2 + .05 to .12 for empy hands

flat duration increase is:
6/merit + 3/merit if relic head bonus
1/jp in enfeebling duration
1/jp in stymie effect if stymie buff is active

duration bonus gear is:
10% for Kishar Ring
20% for regal cuffs

composure bonus is:
10/20/35/50% just like the enhancing bonus for 2/3/4/5 pieces of empy armor.

augmented bonus is:
Duelist's Torque rank

Edit: Amending This, forgot Duelist's Torque

This from the testing I did last month.

I did not test on nms, so I don’t know if duration is nerfed for them.

I only have 14% neck but my frazzles and distracts were lasting very very long with Sabo. Just over 15 minutes. Kishar ring, no neck R14, lethargy body hands +1

Slow ii base duration is 180, paralyze ii is 120

Edit: paralyze and silence should last the exact same amount of time without stymie. Stymie silence should last longer though unless there was a resist or something. I was under the impression that stymie couldn’t be resisted.

Edit2: @sechs. When you stymie silence are you casting in empy gear? You should be. Second question. Theoretically a sabo paralyze should last longer than a sabo silence because silence doesn’t benefit from enfeebling potency so you probably don’t have lethargy sayon +1 on cast, but you probably do in your paralyze set
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-10-04 00:29:25
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Yes Shadowmeld, when I Stymie I'm casting with 5/5 Empy gear, that means 50% set bonus duration instead of what I normally get in my default casting set (10%).

You're correct on the second part. My Midcast sets are super simplified compared to many other RDMs, but I do indeed use AF1+3 body instead of Lethargy Sayon +1 for Silence.
So that's a 10% duration difference, I will update my numbers in the post above reflecting this.

It still doesn't explain the fact that Slow II is lasting longer than Fraz/Dist and that Sabo Para II is lasting longer than Stymie Sabo Silence.



Other Hypothesys I can throw around: there's a cap in the max duration? But this can't be possible if Shadowmeld claims he got Frazzle to last over 15 mins.
Maybe the other duration buffs get reduced to 25% of their original potency on NMs and it's not just the Saboteur's duration bonus?
Maybe some of these spells get reduced base duration on NMs?

Maybe it's something special about Odin like Chiaia said? But if it is it only applies to certain debuffs, not all.
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By Asura.Netero 2019-10-04 06:59:06
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Yes Shadowmeld, when I Stymie I'm casting with 5/5 Empy gear, that means 50% set bonus duration instead of what I normally get in my default casting set (10%).

You're correct on the second part. My Midcast sets are super simplified compared to many other RDMs, but I do indeed use AF1+3 body instead of Lethargy Sayon +1 for Silence.
So that's a 10% duration difference, I will update my numbers in the post above reflecting this.

It still doesn't explain the fact that Slow II is lasting longer than Fraz/Dist and that Sabo Para II is lasting longer than Stymie Sabo Silence.


Other Hypothesys I can throw around: there's a cap in the max duration? But this can't be possible if Shadowmeld claims he got Frazzle to last over 15 mins.
Maybe the other duration buffs get reduced to 25% of their original potency on NMs and it's not just the Saboteur's duration bonus?
Maybe some of these spells get reduced base duration on NMs?

Maybe it's something special about Odin like Chiaia said? But if it is it only applies to certain debuffs, not all.

50% duration for enhancing magic spells, not sure what do you mean but i think you are only benefiting from hands( if sabo is up) and body 14%.
also i do not think silence benefit from sabo since its not potency related like para or slow, its either silence or not.
pure Macc goes for silenec.

am i missing something ?

edit: ignore that
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-10-04 07:37:19
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Net I think for a second you forgot that empy set bonus works on debuffs too, not just enha. A lot of us did that mistake lol.

Also silence doesn't benefit from sabo's potency bonus, but it benefits from sabo's duration bonus!
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By Aerix 2019-10-04 11:23:50
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Also silence doesn't benefit from sabo's potency bonus

What if I want my enemies to be super-silenced!?
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By Phoenix.Esvedium 2019-10-04 12:52:50
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Aerix said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
Also silence doesn't benefit from sabo's potency bonus

What if I want my enemies to be super-silenced!?

Just kill em faster, they'll be superest silenced at that point!
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 Midgardsormr.Davecus
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By Midgardsormr.Davecus 2019-10-07 20:42:38
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Hey guys, hope this is the right place to ask. In the guide, under HQ magic Acc set, It says:
"This offers an idea of some of a high Magic Accuracy set to use for spells that do not vary in potency (Sleep, Silence, Inundation, Gravity, Dispel, etc)"
It then lists MND augments and MND ambu cape. I may be wrong, but I thought INT is used for m.acc on black magic spells like sleep, inundation, gravity, and dispel. My understanding (I could be wrong!) is MND is used for m.acc on white magic spells (I could see MND for silence as it's white magic), and effects potency on spells with variable potency, but does it have any effect on spells like sleep and the rest? Am I way off?
TLDR:
I have a MND and INT ambu capes, which should I use for sleep spells, and why?
Thank you!
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By Bahamut.Empyrean 2019-10-07 23:22:39
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Quote:
Greetings, everyone!

As many of you already know, MND and INT play a major role when enfeebling enemies, but depending on the difference between your stats and your foe’s stats the potency of your spells will differ.

Let’s take a quick look at some examples of this and how different the potency becomes when you are able to overpower your enemy’s stats!



Slow (Change in attack delay)
Lowest effect value when MND is 75 less than your enemy: around 7.3%
Highest effect value when MND is 75 more than your enemy: around 29.2%



Slow II (Change in attack delay)
Lowest effect value when MND is 75 less than your enemy: around 12.5%
Highest effect value when MND is 75 more than your enemy: around 35.1%
*With each merit point increase, the effect value grows by about 1%.



Paralyze (Change in the rate of Paralysis)
Lowest effect value when MND is 40 less than your enemy: around 5.0%
Highest effect value when MND is 40 more than your enemy: around 25.0%



Paralyze II (Change in the rate of Paralysis)
Lowest effect value when MND is 40 less than your enemy: around 10.0%
Highest effect value when MND is 40 more than your enemy: around 30.0%
*With each merit point increase, the effect value grows by about 1%.



Blind (Change in reduced physical accuracy effect)
Lowest value when your MND is 80 under an enemy’s INT: 5
Highest value when your MND is 120 over an enemy’s INT: 50



Blind II (Change in reduced physical accuracy effect)
Lowest value when your MND is 80 under an enemy’s INT: 15
Highest value when your MND is 120 over an enemy’s INT: 90



Distract (Change in reduced physical evasion effect)
Lowest value when your MND and an enemy’s MND are the same: 0
Highest value when your MND is 50 over an enemy’s MND: 10
*When your enfeebling magic skill is 125, the maximum value for this effect is 25. MND is then factored into this after.




Distract II (Change in reduced physical evasion effect)
Lowest value when your MND and an enemy’s MND are the same: 0
Highest value when your MND is 50 over an enemy’s MND: 10
*When your enfeebling magic skill is 350, the maximum value for this effect is 40. MND is then factored into this after.




Distract III (Change in reduced physical evasion effect)
Lowest value when your MND and an enemy’s MND are the same: 0
Highest value when your MND is 50 over an enemy’s MND: 10
*When your enfeebling magic skill is 610, the maximum value for this effect is 80. MND is then factored into this after.




Frazzle (Change in reduced magical evasion effect)
Lowest value when your MND and an enemy’s MND are the same: 0
Highest value when your MND is 100 over an enemy’s MND: 10
*When your enfeebling magic skill is 135, the maximum value for this effect is 25. MND is then factored into this after.




Frazzle II (Change in reduced magical evasion effect)
Lowest value when your MND and an enemy’s MND are the same: 0
Highest value when your MND is 100 over an enemy’s MND: 10
*When your enfeebling magic skill is 365, the maximum value for this effect is 40. MND is then factored into this after.




Frazzle III (Change in reduced magical evasion effect)
Lowest value when your MND and an enemy’s MND are the same: 0
Highest value when your MND is 100 over an enemy’s MND: 10
*When your enfeebling magic skill is 625, the maximum value for this effect is 80. MND is then factored into this after.




Addle (Change in reduced magical accuracy effect)
Lowest value when your MND and an enemy’s MND are the same: 0
Highest value when your MND is 100 over an enemy’s MND: 20
*Regardless of enfeebling magic skill, the amount of reduced magical accuracy is -20.



Addle II (Change in reduced magical accuracy effect)
Lowest value when your MND and an enemy’s MND are the same: 0
Highest value when your MND is 100 over an enemy’s MND: 50
※*Regardless of enfeebling magic skill, the amount of reduced magical accuracy is -50.

This is from SE, the only issue was the part where they incorrectly stated MND on Blind and not INT.

The only other differences from the time of this post and now, rdm tier 2 merits spells are all in max potency now since they removed them from merits and made them scrolls.

Side note, you said int on inundation, that is a white magic spell. Go mnd, not that it has any effect. Just builds of repetition and habit for whm vs blm magics
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By Aerix 2019-10-07 23:49:43
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Bahamut.Empyrean said: »
Side note, you said int on inundation, that is a white magic spell. Go mnd, not that it has any effect. Just builds of repetition and habit for whm vs blm magics

MND will increase MACC for Inundation, even if it doesn't increase its potency. Not that there's anything that really resists Inundation, but better safe than sorry.
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 Midgardsormr.Davecus
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By Midgardsormr.Davecus 2019-10-08 00:43:09
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Aerix said: »
Bahamut.Empyrean said: »
Side note, you said int on inundation, that is a white magic spell. Go mnd, not that it has any effect. Just builds of repetition and habit for whm vs blm magics

MND will increase MACC for Inundation, even if it doesn't increase its potency. Not that there's anything that really resists Inundation, but better safe than sorry.
My bad, I was looking at spell list on my phone, must have missed symbol.

Thank you for the replies! I understand MND increases potency thats not what I was asking. What im wondering about is what stat boosts M.acc for sleep, which as far as I know has no use for potency.
Wiki on sleep:
"Has two Resist States by duration (Full and Half duration)."
No potency, just resist or not, INT wold determine M.acc right? Is there any reason to boost MND for sleep?
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By fillerbunny9 2019-10-08 00:50:07
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Midgardsormr.Davecus said: »
Aerix said: »
Bahamut.Empyrean said: »
Side note, you said int on inundation, that is a white magic spell. Go mnd, not that it has any effect. Just builds of repetition and habit for whm vs blm magics

MND will increase MACC for Inundation, even if it doesn't increase its potency. Not that there's anything that really resists Inundation, but better safe than sorry.
My bad, I was looking at spell list on my phone, must have missed symbol.

Thank you for the replies! I understand MND increases potency thats not what I was asking. What im wondering about is what stat boosts M.acc for sleep, which as far as I know has no use for potency.
Wiki on sleep:
"Has two Resist States by duration (Full and Half duration)."
No potency, just resist or not, INT wold determine M.acc right? Is there any reason to boost MND for sleep?

Sleep is a Black Magic spell, thus INT would be the way to go.
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By Midgardsormr.Davecus 2019-10-08 00:53:46
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Thanks,so the guide saying to cast sleep in MND boosted gear is incorrect? All black magic m.acc is boosted by int?
Edit: See Below
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By Midgardsormr.Davecus 2019-10-08 01:04:22
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From guide under RMD HQ M.acc:
Quote:
This offers an idea of some of a high Magic Accuracy set to use for spells that do not vary in potency (Sleep, Silence, Inundation, Gravity, Dispel, etc). Merlinic/Chironic can have up to +40 Magic Accuracy. NQ versions of everything listed are viable as well. Murgleis gives superior pure Magic Accuracy with AM1 up with Ammurapi Shield but that may not be feasible in many fights, especially if you are backrow for a particular NM.
*Grioavolr augmented with MND, Magic Accuracy and Enfeebling Skill
*Kaykaus Path A
*Sucellos's Cape augmented with MND and Magic Accuracy/Damage
*Possible Swaps: Vitiation Chapeau +3, Amalric Coif +1 Path D, Sanctity Necklace, Clerisy Strap +1, Gwati Earring, Sangoma Ring, Medium's Sabots, Leyline Gloves, Merlinic pieces, Chironic pieces, Jhakri +2 Pieces

This set is also used to land Frazzle II, before overwriting with Frazzle III using potency gear. This can be useful if the Frazzle III doesn't immediately land.

Sorry double post, I wanted to clarify. Bolded items is what I'm asking about specifically. MND augs should be INT for bolded spells because they are black magic spells and uneffected by MND potency, right?
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By Leviathan.Isiolia 2019-10-08 08:04:16
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Midgardsormr.Davecus said: »
Sorry double post, I wanted to clarify. Bolded items is what I'm asking about specifically. MND augs should be INT for bolded spells because they are black magic spells and uneffected by MND potency, right?

Right. The augments listed are just for the presented set. As the first sentence under it suggests, it's just general idea, and there are plenty of other viable items.

To be fair, these days, there aren't that many items where you'd pick between INT and MND. Especially if focusing first and foremost on overall Magic Accuracy as that set would be. Cape, sure. Weapon, perhaps. Kaykaus is more like the Stikini Rings or Incarnation Sash there - Path A is MND, sure, but it's paired with MAcc.
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By Fauve 2019-10-13 18:34:26
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As far as TP sets go, is the new Malignance is in general the way to go?
 Asura.Elizabet
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By Asura.Elizabet 2019-10-15 16:49:49
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If you have a good Temper set (and you should), I do think so. It doesn't have Attack, but it's got pretty much everything else you'd want.

Typically on RDM, we're attack starved and rarely in the super buffed DD party. So, depending on your buffs, I doubt you'll really see capped pdif to really benefit from the PDL on it so that's kind of trolling from SE for that part. Still, its a formidable well rounded set.

I'd go 4/5 with ayanmo gloves +2. while doing Crocea stuff.

Just have to sort out your DW+
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-10-15 17:45:47
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Malignant Head / Body / hands would be decent enough, RDM doesn't have many strong MA options there. Legs Feet would likely be HQ Adhemar with Suppa to round out DW capping. Cape would be Store TP or DA depending on build, buff and off hand weapon.

1 DA = 1 MA (multi-attack)
1 TA = 2 MA
1 QA = 3 MA

In general
2 Store TP > 1 MA > 1 Store TP

The actual conversation between then depends heavily on the amount possessed, MA is more valuable when you have 100+ total Store TP, while Store TP is more valuable when you have over 100 MA. Also since QA, TA and DA are multiplied by each other, high amounts of one can devalue the others. Finally SA (single attack) rate plays heavily on the contribution of OaX weapons like neo-Joytoy or Murg.

IE 100% MA
100 DA = 100 MA and 0% SA means OaX would never proc and is thus useless.

50% TA = 100 MA but 50% SA rate meaning OaX would would roll on that remaining 50% of attack rounds.
 Asura.Elizabet
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By Asura.Elizabet 2019-10-15 17:59:21
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You're thinking of Carmine Legs? RDM ain't on Adhemar. Also, I would think the dw on cape instead of the stp might be a better option to keep malignance legs, instead of carmine +1.
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By Chimerawizard 2019-10-15 18:02:48
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ItemSet 343919
If you have the malignance gear, I'd wear that.
sword skill+5, DW+1, & DA+3 vs acc+25, sTP+6, haste+2, dmg limit+7, dt-7, macc+100, & meva+140.
*edit removed set with carmine since I made it up on the spot, and guide has finally paged.
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By Bahamut.Eternallight 2019-10-15 18:18:31
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Second'd on the 5/5 Malig.

5/5 Malig + D ring + back with 10% PDT and dual wield, then use a dual wield earring.

Gives you capped PDT, Capped MDT (after shell), a ton of acc and Meva, capped attack speed.

And where else can you cap everything all at the same time.
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By Steroid800 2019-10-18 12:13:48
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Might be a silly question but I'm assuming since i have regal earring, Malignance earring pretty much replaces Dignitary's?
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By Asura.Elizabet 2019-10-18 12:22:00
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Steroid800 said: »
Malignance earring pretty much replaces Dignitary's?

Assuming you were only using it for the MACC in your casting set then yes, that should be Malig+Regal (specially if you are benefiting from Regal's set bonus). Personally, I've been using Barkarole + Malignance cause Ou hates me.
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By Aerix 2019-10-19 00:22:16
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RDM can't use Barkarole, unfortunately.
 Asura.Elizabet
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By Asura.Elizabet 2019-10-19 02:39:52
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Aerix said: »
RDM can't use Barkarole, unfortunately.

Sorry my mind is working in SCH mode, too many Lillith.
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