It all depends how long the fight lasts.
The question is what are those SMN parsing once they are back to a 22 second minimum delay between BP's? Which let's face it, is the "desired" result of neutering AC.
Most SP's/buffs/debuffs last much longer than 30 seconds, and in most circumstances whether you kill in 30 seconds or 1 minute or 2 mins isn't going to make any difference.
Extending/shrinking the duration of the parse/battle can manipulate the answer any way you want.
Reisenjima T4s
Reisenjima T4s
Not even sure why this is a debate at all, or how someone could defend AC not being broken lol
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Leviathan.Stamos said: »
Not even sure why this is a debate at all, or how someone could defend AC not being broken lol
Because their benefiting from it and only non-beneficial things are *broke*. That's a humans default mental setting, it takes a conscious effort to work any other way.
Depends if its the mythical 60 second, 20x50k = 2mil damage (?!?) AC's that some jokers who don't play the job have been pushing as a straw man in this thread, or what it actually does in reality.
The former yeah, that'd be broken. The latter, not so much.
The former yeah, that'd be broken. The latter, not so much.
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It's something like 500-700k damage per conduit without interruption.
The outcry for BLU nerf was far greater, and BLU was never the top DD, or circumvented any mechanics. SMN does both lol
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Leviathan.Stamos said: »
The outcry for BLU nerf was far greater, and BLU was never the top DD, or circumvented any mechanics. SMN does both lol
But but but I spent millions of gil for my <Insert Broke Job Here> gear and got this mythic, I deserve the ability to break this game. You guys are just jealous of how great we are.
-Said every user of a mechanical exploit ever.
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Show me a video of a Schah kill that doesn't require killing adds, using any jobs besides SMN. This was intended to be one of the most complex fights, there's no believable argument that SE wanted you to kill it before adds popped.
If nothing else, Schah needs to be adjusted. However, since the problem is not Schah's design as much as SMN itself, and SMN is avoiding all fight flow on many other NMs the same way, the obvious choice is to nerf SMN.
If nothing else, Schah needs to be adjusted. However, since the problem is not Schah's design as much as SMN itself, and SMN is avoiding all fight flow on many other NMs the same way, the obvious choice is to nerf SMN.
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Not to mention, SMN is fairly cheap compared to other jobs for the "best" gear.
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
It's something like 500-700k damage per conduit without interruption.
For AM3 Nirvana, that sounds about right in perfect circumstances with some set manipulation to maximize spammage.
For any other staff, halve it.
Now factor in what the DPS is fpr the next 30 seconds, assuming the target is still alive. And we're down to 40-60k assuming AF is still up and Apogee still in play. 30 secs after that, halve it again.
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Depends if its the mythical 60 second, 20x50k = 2mil damage (?!?) AC's that some jokers who don't play the job have been pushing as a straw man in this thread, or what it actually does in reality.
The former yeah, that'd be broken. The latter, not so much.
The former yeah, that'd be broken. The latter, not so much.
Afaik, this was misquoted ONE time, by me, and promptly fixed/corrected to reflect it being party DPS and not a single SMN. You're using it as a strawman to... I don't know... all you're really doing at this point is showing your own ignorance not knowing DPS output of a conduit SMN vs any other DD. You couldn't even answer Ocean's question when it's blatantly obvious what the true answer is he was trying to get at.
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Wasn't actually aiming that comment at you Ejiin, it was just a compilation of dubious facts and hyperbole that have been tossed around to this point.
Ironically people railing about bandwagoning fuelling it with disinformation...
Seriously, I can't believe I got sucked back into this ludicrous "debate" by simply mentioning SMN along with RNG and COR as part of a viable ranged physical strategy if you aren't using RUN on Albumen.
Ironically people railing about bandwagoning fuelling it with disinformation...
Seriously, I can't believe I got sucked back into this ludicrous "debate" by simply mentioning SMN along with RNG and COR as part of a viable ranged physical strategy if you aren't using RUN on Albumen.
Asura.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Stamos said: »
Not even sure why this is a debate at all, or how someone could defend AC not being broken lol
Because their benefiting from it and only non-beneficial things are *broke*. That's a humans default mental setting, it takes a conscious effort to work any other way.
its also a "humans default setting" to be jealous and to hate on others doing well. it goes both ways man. as for this smn thing, ive said it before and ill say it again SMN IS ***OUTSIDE OF CONDUIT. who cares about hate free dmg (which it isnt) if the dmg is crap to begin with. if i want to stay out of range and do dmg, ill rng that way i can actually kill something without timing out. this smn strat is only good with properly geared and knowledgeable smns. id like to see a few fresh 119 smns trying this and succede. i know this from 1st hand experience. as u stated earlier, im not a career smn and even tho i know alot now, theres still alot i dont know. but what i do know is any run of the mill smn can not do this. and also comparing smn zerg to bst is just plain ignorant. smn takes time, knowledge, skill, and great gear. bst however b4 the nerf didnt require any of it. u could do amything with just basic gear amd 100 jps
Leviathan.Stamos said: »
The outcry for BLU nerf was far greater, and BLU was never the top DD, or circumvented any mechanics. SMN does both lol
How they handled BLU should give SMNs hope that there's finally someone at SE that knows what they're doing. They looked at the huge advantage BLU had in endgame situations(accuracy) and methodically made it so other DDs caught up through NM nerfs, BRD buffs and increasing the quality of heavy DD gear while toning down BLU's gear instead of slamming it with the nerf bat.
I think BLU is finally at a point where everyone is happy: It's strong/useful for new/returning players to jump into things with lowman setups and can still pack a punch in endgame content while contributing utility for the veterans, but when facing a similarly geared heavy DD with proper buffs, it will quickly fall behind in pure DPS.
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Leviathan.Stamos said: »
The outcry for BLU nerf was far greater, and BLU was never the top DD, or circumvented any mechanics. SMN does both lol
How they handled BLU should give SMNs hope that there's finally someone at SE that knows what they're doing. They looked at the huge advantage BLU had in endgame situations(accuracy) and methodically made it so other DDs caught up through NM nerfs, BRD buffs and increasing the quality of heavy DD gear while toning down BLU's gear instead of slamming it with the nerf bat.
I think BLU is finally at a point where everyone is happy: It's strong/useful for new/returning players to jump into things with lowman setups and can still pack a punch in endgame content while contributing utility for the veterans, but when facing a similarly geared heavy DD with proper buffs, it will quickly fall behind in pure DPS.
blu got kinda *** on omen but i see where youre comming from.
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Show me a video of a Schah kill that doesn't require killing adds, using any jobs besides SMN. This was intended to be one of the most complex fights, there's no believable argument that SE wanted you to kill it before adds popped.
If nothing else, Schah needs to be adjusted. However, since the problem is not Schah's design as much as SMN itself, and SMN is avoiding all fight flow on many other NMs the same way, the obvious choice is to nerf SMN.
If nothing else, Schah needs to be adjusted. However, since the problem is not Schah's design as much as SMN itself, and SMN is avoiding all fight flow on many other NMs the same way, the obvious choice is to nerf SMN.
Fix schah's lack of dt- in the first 60s.
2 mil was my estimate based off peak gear, peak damage, and the number of pacts you can get off including apogee usage before conduit. 16+2+2, with a cor its 16+2+2+2. This is assuming 99k cap each pact, apogee used 3x due to revit and wildcard, and a full 30s conduit with outside sources spamming manamists to restore mp. This is merely theoretical perfect me and a ls member came up with to see if solo/duo smn dps on schah is possible but we would need down to the second coordination across 5-6 characters to achieve this.
The second option we had for solo dps schah was relying on a 6 wildcard and burning down first add pop with some pacts (usually dies in 2-3) to extend window by another 30s.
In ahort, the 2 mil is a full 16 pact conduit and 4 or 6 pact apogee, all hitting 99k cap.
Do you guys really BP for 99k per Volt Strike with any consistency? I'd need to land 6 swings for that, so I'm either doing something very wrong or that's a substantial overestimation.
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Do you guys really BP for 99k per Volt Strike with any consistency? I'd need to land 6 swings for that, so I'm either doing something very wrong or that's a substantial overestimation.
Bring a second source of def down and using a perfect gear set and it seems achievable. Its all theoretical though. Perfect gear involves 4/5 helios with 7 bpd 8 da and 30 atk. Apogee legs and assumes 40 da from aftermath to reach 100 da rate.
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Do you guys really BP for 99k per Volt Strike with any consistency? I'd need to land 6 swings for that, so I'm either doing something very wrong or that's a substantial overestimation.
AM3 proc is not 100% in any case, so its not even theoretically attainable.
Aftermath doesn't give 40 DA, at least not to melees. Is there evidence SMN is different?
I'd assume you have your chance for gear DA to proc, then if it doesn't you have the 20(3)-40(2)-40(1) split for AM3.
I'd assume you have your chance for gear DA to proc, then if it doesn't you have the 20(3)-40(2)-40(1) split for AM3.
What's the problem here? Are you kids upset that mythic summoners with ten odd gear sets and years invested into the class are able to do some decent damage once every 45-60m? lol
Keyword: Mythic
This isn't even a good comparison to the shitstorm of blues that were running around crapping 25k+ aoes every other second.
Besides, it's not like summoners are rolling around soloing DMII and dumping out 90k lights on T3 Resien pops with pets that never die and can't be CC'd.
"Oh, but they had to have mythics and twenty gear sets to do that!"
That's kind of the point in most cases here.
The problem with blue was every idiot and their brother flocked to the class to the point that there was almost zero class diversity left for top-end content. It boiled the entire game down to either throwing a dozen blues at something and zerging it in seconds, or switching those blues to rangers because of melee range amnesia/para/silence/death spam.
Personally, I haven't seen a huge influx of people rushing head first into the months and millions it costs to gear a summoner to take into that content compared to the scale of people that were rolling blues just because it suddenly became trendy for something.
Whoever said it was cheap to gear summoner is smoking meth.
It's "cheap" if you spent weeks/months farming everything for it yourself, enjoyed running back and forth through two dozen some odd prime fights, bought/crafted only a "couple of duplicate NQ" apogee sets, and farmed the some odd thousand Resien stones you'll need to get BP10/PetMACC/MATK 20+ on your Grio.
Friendly reminder: Every time something like this ever happened, a whole bunch of people ended up on the short end of the ***stick for a long time.
- Any idiot with a Ranger, a couple pieces of Noct gear, and a stack of scorpion arrows gets into any group, generates more TP, does more damage than every other class, and can blink tank.
Solution: Ruin Rangers for the next ten years.
- An alliance of Dark Knights can hit Souleater and trash AV.
Solution: Ruin Dark Knights for the next ten years.
- Everyone is a blue mage.
Solution: Make other classes more appealing.
It only took their developers ten years to figure out a better solution than just absolutely shredding a class to the point no one plays it or takes it seriously. Luckily, we've almost reached a point of balance where every job is appealing in its own way for its own special snowflake reasons.
So, if you really want to see AC "balanced":
Get half of the population on every server to roll a summoner, have multiple summoners in every group for every level of content, and send SE the screenshot where 70% of everyone on /sea all is a summoner.
Or, y'know, you could just be cool and let people enjoy stuff.
Keyword: Mythic
This isn't even a good comparison to the shitstorm of blues that were running around crapping 25k+ aoes every other second.
Besides, it's not like summoners are rolling around soloing DMII and dumping out 90k lights on T3 Resien pops with pets that never die and can't be CC'd.
"Oh, but they had to have mythics and twenty gear sets to do that!"
That's kind of the point in most cases here.
The problem with blue was every idiot and their brother flocked to the class to the point that there was almost zero class diversity left for top-end content. It boiled the entire game down to either throwing a dozen blues at something and zerging it in seconds, or switching those blues to rangers because of melee range amnesia/para/silence/death spam.
Personally, I haven't seen a huge influx of people rushing head first into the months and millions it costs to gear a summoner to take into that content compared to the scale of people that were rolling blues just because it suddenly became trendy for something.
Whoever said it was cheap to gear summoner is smoking meth.
It's "cheap" if you spent weeks/months farming everything for it yourself, enjoyed running back and forth through two dozen some odd prime fights, bought/crafted only a "couple of duplicate NQ" apogee sets, and farmed the some odd thousand Resien stones you'll need to get BP10/PetMACC/MATK 20+ on your Grio.
Friendly reminder: Every time something like this ever happened, a whole bunch of people ended up on the short end of the ***stick for a long time.
- Any idiot with a Ranger, a couple pieces of Noct gear, and a stack of scorpion arrows gets into any group, generates more TP, does more damage than every other class, and can blink tank.
Solution: Ruin Rangers for the next ten years.
- An alliance of Dark Knights can hit Souleater and trash AV.
Solution: Ruin Dark Knights for the next ten years.
- Everyone is a blue mage.
Solution: Make other classes more appealing.
It only took their developers ten years to figure out a better solution than just absolutely shredding a class to the point no one plays it or takes it seriously. Luckily, we've almost reached a point of balance where every job is appealing in its own way for its own special snowflake reasons.
So, if you really want to see AC "balanced":
Get half of the population on every server to roll a summoner, have multiple summoners in every group for every level of content, and send SE the screenshot where 70% of everyone on /sea all is a summoner.
Or, y'know, you could just be cool and let people enjoy stuff.
Stiltz said: »
mythic summoners with ten odd gear setsone 300m gear set and years invested into the classabout 4 days invested into job points are able to do some decent damage once every 45-60mzerg some of the hardest content in the game effortlessly? lol
lol indeed, blu's tp set alone costs over double everything needed for perfect conduit zerg.. a budget smn(still good enough for 4 smn run geo) needs under 100m in gear and capped JP
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Except AC burning requires one gear set and a JSE weapon. Nirvana is a significant increase, which is shocking considering how cheap it is to make relative to other dps RME, but not an absolute requirement.
Stiltz said: »
This isn't even a good comparison to the shitstorm of blues
YouTube Video Placeholder
Since when was a "Was" a Mythic? I see it every day on Asura. Normally yes 1 out of the 4 SMNs will be a mythic but the rest will be voodoo + "Was" which is a very cheap gear out.
Personally I really don't care what they are doing but to keep seeing this you have to be pimp AF to do this is total BS.
Personally I really don't care what they are doing but to keep seeing this you have to be pimp AF to do this is total BS.
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Quote:
lol indeed, blu's tp set alone costs over double everything needed for perfect conduit zerg.. a budget smn(still good enough for 4 smn run geo) needs under 100m in gear and capped JP
Show me the 500 people rushing to spend 300m and cap JPs on summoner and I'll show you immediate change overnight.
If summoners are cheesing adds with AC for a single fight that's causing this degree of butt angst, then alter the add's resistance to lightning damage instead of entirely shitting up another class. Not really rocket science, folks.
Asura.Chiaia said: »
Since when was a "Was" a Mythic? I see it every day on Asura. Normally yes 1 out of the 4 SMNs will be a mythic but the rest will be voodoo + "Was" which is a very cheap gear out.
No SMN with a clue would use Was for spamming Volt Strike in the first place.
Doesn't mean they're not winning using it.
Asura.Chiaia said: »
Doesn't mean they're not winning using it.
Check the AH history on Ragnarok for Was sales compared to Asura... Eye-popping stuff.
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Check the AH history on Ragnarok for Was sales compared to Asura... Eye-popping stuff.
Like I said up top I really don't care but people are making it out like oh its only mythic SMNs and the hell if it is.
This game is always going to go through the flavor of the week jobs and I stopped really caring which it is each time. Sometimes it last a while other times its a week.
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