I feel bad for anyone reading this and coming to the conclusion that its as easy and foolproof a strat as the "nerfers" are claiming; they are going to get a rude awakening.
The video posted a couple of pages back is particularly misleading as although it ostensibly shows Albumen and Erinys getting smashed in no time at all, they omit the crucial initial setup dealing with the adds which if not done correctly will lead to an instant wipe.
And of course, in a zerg, there is no "plan B" to fall back on. Which is kind of important as these aren't NM's you farm for loot; they are principally for quest credit meaning that if you can get a full alliance through first time, your group is gaining a whole lot more (and more quickly to boot) than fridgeing people through one or two at a time.
Reisenjima T4s
Reisenjima T4s
When my nirvana is done I'll be able to summon Harambe and we will all pull our *** out.
[+]
Haha more "we exploit an unintentional mechanic yet don't want to call it that so shut up and lrn2ply".
The guy above almost had it right when he mentioned cycles, it's not Setup X/Y/Z overpowered but rather it's the natural reaction of the player base to content as it's introduced. It goes like this,
SE introduces new content, the advanced members of the player base use "Safe" setups initially to test and be "first to win / first to get gear X", these are bragging rights for them. Those "safe" setups work and the majority population see's the youtube video's of the advanced members bragging "it's so easy to win, we need moar hard content" and adopt those "safe" strategies. As those "safe" strategies proliferate others start to discover and document unique fight mechanics and create theories about how to deal with them while using faster "less safe" methods. Eventually those catch on and then the regular members see those youtube videos and adopt that faster yet more dangerous strategy.
"Safe strategies" include
Relic RNG's
Regular pet burns (not SMN AC zergs)
Mana burns (later replaced with SCH SC burns)
The "faster yet dangerous" strategies are
Melee burn (melee's spamming their strongest WS)
SC Burn (single or dual DD coordinating a SC)
RNG burn (similar to Melee but RNG's going all out max damage)
And then occasionally you have a combo that breaks a mechanic and enables super fast and super easy wins. KC SEBW DRK, BSTs, THF's with stacked RS, and now AC SMN (there were more these are just some notable and memorable ones). These are inherently broken mechanics that absolutely ruin game balance, they are never intentional and usually a result of some recent update paired with previous updates used in ways the developers never envisioned or thought about.
*Note*
Too many people confuse "burn" with "zerg". If a fight lasts longer then 60s then by definition it's not a "zerg". A "burn" is a fight where the DPS use their highest DPS attacks at full throttle without phase change or enmity management tactics. A "zerg" is then the DPS go full throttle with the goal being to overwhelm the boss's AI and thus no sustainable defense is used. In a burn, the fight is sustainable until the boss is dead, some burns are actually endurance match's that test the alliances resource skills. In a zerg, if the boss isn't dead in that 60s then the group is going to wipe as they have zero sustainment capability. With this in mind, there is zero "melee zergs" at the high end right now because targets simply have too much HP. Most melee orientated fights last about four to five minutes on a good day, sometimes as long as ten to fifteen. In contrast SMN zergs last 60s or less.
The guy above almost had it right when he mentioned cycles, it's not Setup X/Y/Z overpowered but rather it's the natural reaction of the player base to content as it's introduced. It goes like this,
SE introduces new content, the advanced members of the player base use "Safe" setups initially to test and be "first to win / first to get gear X", these are bragging rights for them. Those "safe" setups work and the majority population see's the youtube video's of the advanced members bragging "it's so easy to win, we need moar hard content" and adopt those "safe" strategies. As those "safe" strategies proliferate others start to discover and document unique fight mechanics and create theories about how to deal with them while using faster "less safe" methods. Eventually those catch on and then the regular members see those youtube videos and adopt that faster yet more dangerous strategy.
"Safe strategies" include
Relic RNG's
Regular pet burns (not SMN AC zergs)
Mana burns (later replaced with SCH SC burns)
The "faster yet dangerous" strategies are
Melee burn (melee's spamming their strongest WS)
SC Burn (single or dual DD coordinating a SC)
RNG burn (similar to Melee but RNG's going all out max damage)
And then occasionally you have a combo that breaks a mechanic and enables super fast and super easy wins. KC SEBW DRK, BSTs, THF's with stacked RS, and now AC SMN (there were more these are just some notable and memorable ones). These are inherently broken mechanics that absolutely ruin game balance, they are never intentional and usually a result of some recent update paired with previous updates used in ways the developers never envisioned or thought about.
*Note*
Too many people confuse "burn" with "zerg". If a fight lasts longer then 60s then by definition it's not a "zerg". A "burn" is a fight where the DPS use their highest DPS attacks at full throttle without phase change or enmity management tactics. A "zerg" is then the DPS go full throttle with the goal being to overwhelm the boss's AI and thus no sustainable defense is used. In a burn, the fight is sustainable until the boss is dead, some burns are actually endurance match's that test the alliances resource skills. In a zerg, if the boss isn't dead in that 60s then the group is going to wipe as they have zero sustainment capability. With this in mind, there is zero "melee zergs" at the high end right now because targets simply have too much HP. Most melee orientated fights last about four to five minutes on a good day, sometimes as long as ten to fifteen. In contrast SMN zergs last 60s or less.
I'd still like to see it.
Because I still remember the overblown complaints about BST--even when it wasn't the fastest or easiest way to beat everything. If you need an example, SR is probably the best that comes to my mind.
People will gravitate towards what they perceive to be the fastest/easiest/etc. And then they hit a wall when they don't understand the job properly or meet the gear requirements.
The solution to X is to kill X as quickly as possible. This limits the nasty options X can deliver. It also ensures X is killed before it depops in 15min or 30min, depending upon the fight. Killing with less is a positive, indirectly via not having to share loot and directly due to HP scaling (which is a stupid mechanic).
This is true of every fight due to poor design, in my opinion. But they are the ground rules, so there they are.
Can melee win within the time limit? Yes.
Can ranged win within the time limit? Yes.
Can mages win within the time limit? Yes.
Can pet jobs win within the time limit? Well, one can.
Seems to me pet jobs need buffs not nerfs. In the meantime, use SMN for its strengths if you want. Use other things if that is your preference.
If SMN has become the end all be all job and no one needs to use anything else, then Aeonic content is not relevant. SMN needs no gear from those mobs, so why are they doing them? For gear on other jobs? Great, means other jobs are still interesting to people. For gil (from buyers) to buy gear for other jobs? Great, that means buyers and the sellers are still interested in other jobs. So, the situation feared by the nerf-camp hasn't yet been realized.
Since it hasn't yet happened, the solution is to look forward and not backwards. Going forward, make some content that limits this method. Only some, so SMN can still be relevant. Looking backwards and nerfing just prevents the nerfed job from moving forward with every other job.
Because I still remember the overblown complaints about BST--even when it wasn't the fastest or easiest way to beat everything. If you need an example, SR is probably the best that comes to my mind.
People will gravitate towards what they perceive to be the fastest/easiest/etc. And then they hit a wall when they don't understand the job properly or meet the gear requirements.
The solution to X is to kill X as quickly as possible. This limits the nasty options X can deliver. It also ensures X is killed before it depops in 15min or 30min, depending upon the fight. Killing with less is a positive, indirectly via not having to share loot and directly due to HP scaling (which is a stupid mechanic).
This is true of every fight due to poor design, in my opinion. But they are the ground rules, so there they are.
Can melee win within the time limit? Yes.
Can ranged win within the time limit? Yes.
Can mages win within the time limit? Yes.
Can pet jobs win within the time limit? Well, one can.
Seems to me pet jobs need buffs not nerfs. In the meantime, use SMN for its strengths if you want. Use other things if that is your preference.
If SMN has become the end all be all job and no one needs to use anything else, then Aeonic content is not relevant. SMN needs no gear from those mobs, so why are they doing them? For gear on other jobs? Great, means other jobs are still interesting to people. For gil (from buyers) to buy gear for other jobs? Great, that means buyers and the sellers are still interested in other jobs. So, the situation feared by the nerf-camp hasn't yet been realized.
Since it hasn't yet happened, the solution is to look forward and not backwards. Going forward, make some content that limits this method. Only some, so SMN can still be relevant. Looking backwards and nerfing just prevents the nerfed job from moving forward with every other job.
[+]
Now for some real speak.
What's going on is that those who like SMN and have dedicated themselves to bringing it to the highest level of play are now experiencing their moment of fame. SMN wasn't a highly sought after job and was only ever employed in limited situations. Now those players are the center of the universe and they don't want that to end. Every time someone mentions SMN AC zerging being overpowered, those dedicated SMN's are getting insecure about being relegated to the back stage, being asked to change back to GEO, WHM, roll COR, or worse of all being told to go "build something useful". Naturally they fight back tooth and nail, coming up with all sorts of ***to say to deny that the end of this period is coming.
Then you have those who are just using it for it's current fame and fully expect that after it's nerfed they will go do whatever is popular again. They either don't care or are hoping to milk the current situation for everything it's worth before moving on.
See FFXI does have a sophisticated PvP system, it's so sophisticated that it has to take place on forums.
What's going on is that those who like SMN and have dedicated themselves to bringing it to the highest level of play are now experiencing their moment of fame. SMN wasn't a highly sought after job and was only ever employed in limited situations. Now those players are the center of the universe and they don't want that to end. Every time someone mentions SMN AC zerging being overpowered, those dedicated SMN's are getting insecure about being relegated to the back stage, being asked to change back to GEO, WHM, roll COR, or worse of all being told to go "build something useful". Naturally they fight back tooth and nail, coming up with all sorts of ***to say to deny that the end of this period is coming.
Then you have those who are just using it for it's current fame and fully expect that after it's nerfed they will go do whatever is popular again. They either don't care or are hoping to milk the current situation for everything it's worth before moving on.
See FFXI does have a sophisticated PvP system, it's so sophisticated that it has to take place on forums.
[+]
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
I'd still like to see it.
Because I still remember the overblown complaints about BST--even when it wasn't the fastest or easiest way to beat everything. If you need an example, SR is probably the best that comes to my mind.
People will gravitate towards what they perceive to be the fastest/easiest/etc. And then they hit a wall when they don't understand the job properly or meet the gear requirements.
The solution to X is to kill X as quickly as possible. This limits the nasty options X can deliver. It also ensures X is killed before it depops in 15min or 30min, depending upon the fight. Killing with less is a positive, indirectly via not having to share loot and directly due to HP scaling (which is a stupid mechanic).
This is true of every fight due to poor design, in my opinion. But they are the ground rules, so there they are.
Can melee win within the time limit? Yes.
Can ranged win within the time limit? Yes.
Can mages win within the time limit? Yes.
Can pet jobs win within the time limit? Well, one can.
Seems to me pet jobs need buffs not nerfs. In the meantime, use SMN for its strengths if you want. Use other things if that is your preference.
If SMN has become the end all be all job and no one needs to use anything else, then Aeonic content is not relevant. SMN needs no gear from those mobs, so why are they doing them? For gear on other jobs? Great, means other jobs are still interesting to people. For gil (from buyers) to buy gear for other jobs? Great, that means buyers and the sellers are still interested in other jobs. So, the situation feared by the nerf-camp hasn't yet been realized.
Since it hasn't yet happened, the solution is to look forward and not backwards. Going forward, make some content that limits this method. Only some, so SMN can still be relevant. Looking backwards and nerfing just prevents the nerfed job from moving forward with every other job.
Because I still remember the overblown complaints about BST--even when it wasn't the fastest or easiest way to beat everything. If you need an example, SR is probably the best that comes to my mind.
People will gravitate towards what they perceive to be the fastest/easiest/etc. And then they hit a wall when they don't understand the job properly or meet the gear requirements.
The solution to X is to kill X as quickly as possible. This limits the nasty options X can deliver. It also ensures X is killed before it depops in 15min or 30min, depending upon the fight. Killing with less is a positive, indirectly via not having to share loot and directly due to HP scaling (which is a stupid mechanic).
This is true of every fight due to poor design, in my opinion. But they are the ground rules, so there they are.
Can melee win within the time limit? Yes.
Can ranged win within the time limit? Yes.
Can mages win within the time limit? Yes.
Can pet jobs win within the time limit? Well, one can.
Seems to me pet jobs need buffs not nerfs. In the meantime, use SMN for its strengths if you want. Use other things if that is your preference.
If SMN has become the end all be all job and no one needs to use anything else, then Aeonic content is not relevant. SMN needs no gear from those mobs, so why are they doing them? For gear on other jobs? Great, means other jobs are still interesting to people. For gil (from buyers) to buy gear for other jobs? Great, that means buyers and the sellers are still interested in other jobs. So, the situation feared by the nerf-camp hasn't yet been realized.
Since it hasn't yet happened, the solution is to look forward and not backwards. Going forward, make some content that limits this method. Only some, so SMN can still be relevant. Looking backwards and nerfing just prevents the nerfed job from moving forward with every other job.
Great response. SMN is incredible. I love the attention they are getting after a long time. I'm just not sure how they can balance it without destroying it's presence in Endgame scene completely, because the next best option to take care of the job will either revert back to BLM MB method, melee DD method, or RNG method (until that gets nerfed too if ever). It's a very sensitive situation for SMN.. I'm sure they know about it and are making a decision, but personally I think they will take a brutal approach towards balancing this as they have been in the past few years..
Might as well take advantage of it while you can guys. They will probably knock Conduit down half potency in damage or add a damage decay and/or bring the active timer down by half or something.. (Just my guess) :/
Don't forget the 93% haste drks as long as LR was up! Could even pair it up with SEBW to be like Kclub but without having to use a lolclub
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
[+]
Asura.Saevel said: »
Now for some real speak.
I'm not gearing SMN nor do I use it for anything. I had it 99 for WOE, back when that mattered.
I also don't have BST leveled, but defended that job tooth and nail from people that demanded that it be nerfed.
Feel free to use this site to check my job/gear/job point status.
So, your assessment of two types of people that oppose a nerf to SMN is false.
The rest of your comments are opinion. Often shared with the ferocity of a fundamentalist religious zealot--complete with quotes of scripture. But, opinion, none-the-less.
Please stop trying to poison the well. It doesn't make your position any more correct.
clearlyamule said: »
Don't forget the 93% haste drks as long as LR was up! Could even pair it up with SEBW to be like Kclub but without having to use a lolclub
That was the second really broken game mechanic that happened, first being Ranged attacks ignoring LCF. Both have long since been nerfed with the DRK one being a global 20% delay floor being introduced.
That's the thing, extremely broken game mechanics need to be fixed quickly before the player base builds up an entitlement mentality towards them. The quicker stuff like that is patched the less players feel entitled to big rewards with little effort.
[+]
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
BST is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The wah-wah brigade cried about BST being "overpowered", and SE looked and saw that BST wasn't in fact too strong and instead gimped it by placing the pet on such an annoyingly short-leash that even circling around a large mob -with both pet and master engaged- could make all pet commands unresponsive.
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. But the situation remains unrectified to this day.
[+]
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
BST is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The wah-wah brigade cried about BST being "overpowered", and SE looked and saw that BST wasn't in fact too strong and instead gimped it by placing the pet on such an annoyingly short-leash that even circling around a large mob -with both pet and master engaged- could make all pet commands unresponsive.
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. But the situation remains unrectified to this day.
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
BST is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The wah-wah brigade cried about BST being "overpowered", and SE looked and saw that BST wasn't in fact too strong and instead gimped it by placing the pet on such an annoyingly short-leash that even circling around a large mob -with both pet and master engaged- could make all pet commands unresponsive.
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. But the situation remains unrectified to this day.
How so? I still use BST for everything I used it before the nerf, to an equal degree of effectiveness. Its just more annoying and fiddly. Its just a needless, pointless, inconvenience.
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
BST is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The wah-wah brigade cried about BST being "overpowered", and SE looked and saw that BST wasn't in fact too strong and instead gimped it by placing the pet on such an annoyingly short-leash that even circling around a large mob -with both pet and master engaged- could make all pet commands unresponsive.
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. But the situation remains unrectified to this day.
clearlyamule said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
BST is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The wah-wah brigade cried about BST being "overpowered", and SE looked and saw that BST wasn't in fact too strong and instead gimped it by placing the pet on such an annoyingly short-leash that even circling around a large mob -with both pet and master engaged- could make all pet commands unresponsive.
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. But the situation remains unrectified to this day.
SMN has two problems right now:
1) Peak performance is too high, particularly for melee zergs
2) Cost to take advantage of most of this performance is fairly low
Pet jobs in general have another problem, which is related to #1:
3) Pet damage is mostly affected by debuffs, rather than buffs
It's very strong. I've won several parses in an outside party with no unique support (just a frailty that was being given to a melee). However, it's not omnipotent. If I go SMN to farm cards, a full clear leaves me with only 7-10 minutes left. My DNC typically has more than 25 minutes left. BP recast is no joke.
Without Astral Conduit a top-geared SMN's DPS is maybe just a little bit higher than a normal DD, but it's limited by the BPs being on a single target. If I do 45k damage every 22 seconds but the target has only 15k HP, my real DPS is still pretty shitty.
1) Peak performance is too high, particularly for melee zergs
2) Cost to take advantage of most of this performance is fairly low
Pet jobs in general have another problem, which is related to #1:
3) Pet damage is mostly affected by debuffs, rather than buffs
It's very strong. I've won several parses in an outside party with no unique support (just a frailty that was being given to a melee). However, it's not omnipotent. If I go SMN to farm cards, a full clear leaves me with only 7-10 minutes left. My DNC typically has more than 25 minutes left. BP recast is no joke.
Without Astral Conduit a top-geared SMN's DPS is maybe just a little bit higher than a normal DD, but it's limited by the BPs being on a single target. If I do 45k damage every 22 seconds but the target has only 15k HP, my real DPS is still pretty shitty.
[+]
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
BST is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The wah-wah brigade cried about BST being "overpowered", and SE looked and saw that BST wasn't in fact too strong and instead gimped it by placing the pet on such an annoyingly short-leash that even circling around a large mob -with both pet and master engaged- could make all pet commands unresponsive.
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. But the situation remains unrectified to this day.
How so? I still use BST for everything I used it before the nerf, to an equal degree of effectiveness. Its just more annoying and fiddly. Its just a needless, pointless, inconvenience.
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
SMN has two problems right now:
1) Peak performance is too high, particularly for melee zergs
2) Cost take advantage of most of this performance is fairly low
Pet jobs in general have another problem, which is related to #1:
3) Pet damage is mostly affected by debuffs, rather than buffs
It's very strong. I've won several parses in an outside party with no unique support (just a frailty that was being given to a melee). However, it's not omnipotent. If I go SMN to farm cards, a full clear leaves me with only 7-10 minutes left. My DNC typically has more than 25 minutes left. BP recast is no joke.
Without Astral Conduit a top-geared SMN's DPS is maybe just a little bit higher than a normal DD, but it's limited by the BPs being on a single target. If I do 45k damage every 22 seconds but the target has only 15k HP, my real DPS is still pretty shitty.
1) Peak performance is too high, particularly for melee zergs
2) Cost take advantage of most of this performance is fairly low
Pet jobs in general have another problem, which is related to #1:
3) Pet damage is mostly affected by debuffs, rather than buffs
It's very strong. I've won several parses in an outside party with no unique support (just a frailty that was being given to a melee). However, it's not omnipotent. If I go SMN to farm cards, a full clear leaves me with only 7-10 minutes left. My DNC typically has more than 25 minutes left. BP recast is no joke.
Without Astral Conduit a top-geared SMN's DPS is maybe just a little bit higher than a normal DD, but it's limited by the BPs being on a single target. If I do 45k damage every 22 seconds but the target has only 15k HP, my real DPS is still pretty shitty.
i was just about to say something similar lol. i agree, smn is ***outside of conduit
Question about Vinipata - we're thinking about doing him with rangers, where we used to use the SC MB setup that most people used pre-nerf.
It occurred to me that we want to keep him in Raksha stance and to do this it seems like you would prefer real PLD or RUN tanks instead of puppets (because buffed people in his vicinity is Raksha trigger).
Is it feasible to use PLD or RUN or is it tough to keep them alive? I assume the reason for the pups was just for yaksha stance but wanted to see if someone can confirm before I waste linkshell time on it.
Thanks!
It occurred to me that we want to keep him in Raksha stance and to do this it seems like you would prefer real PLD or RUN tanks instead of puppets (because buffed people in his vicinity is Raksha trigger).
Is it feasible to use PLD or RUN or is it tough to keep them alive? I assume the reason for the pups was just for yaksha stance but wanted to see if someone can confirm before I waste linkshell time on it.
Thanks!
I find non-AC Summoner works quite well as a second support in a melee party; they can Hastega II (freeing up a bubble), give everyone +250 TP bonus, and on the defensive side, protect everyone with Earthen Armor and cure status effects with Spring Water/Soothing Ruby, and do serviceable damage in the meantime.
In regards to RNG setup on Vinipata, Paladin worked well for us although your RNGs have to take care with hate.
Although we have not been successful yet we only had a few tries and 2 RNGs + COR provided enough DPS and the most successful attempt got him down to 7%. Having a WHM spam Banish III seemed to help.
Our tank was interested in switching to RUN but has yet to attempt it.
Although we have not been successful yet we only had a few tries and 2 RNGs + COR provided enough DPS and the most successful attempt got him down to 7%. Having a WHM spam Banish III seemed to help.
Our tank was interested in switching to RUN but has yet to attempt it.
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Odin.Geriond said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
BST is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The wah-wah brigade cried about BST being "overpowered", and SE looked and saw that BST wasn't in fact too strong and instead gimped it by placing the pet on such an annoyingly short-leash that even circling around a large mob -with both pet and master engaged- could make all pet commands unresponsive.
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. But the situation remains unrectified to this day.
Quetzalcoatl.Chanceikin said: »
Question about Vinipata - we're thinking about doing him with rangers, where we used to use the SC MB setup that most people used pre-nerf.
It occurred to me that we want to keep him in Raksha stance and to do this it seems like you would prefer real PLD or RUN tanks instead of puppets (because buffed people in his vicinity is Raksha trigger).
Is it feasible to use PLD or RUN or is it tough to keep them alive? I assume the reason for the pups was just for yaksha stance but wanted to see if someone can confirm before I waste linkshell time on it.
Thanks!
It occurred to me that we want to keep him in Raksha stance and to do this it seems like you would prefer real PLD or RUN tanks instead of puppets (because buffed people in his vicinity is Raksha trigger).
Is it feasible to use PLD or RUN or is it tough to keep them alive? I assume the reason for the pups was just for yaksha stance but wanted to see if someone can confirm before I waste linkshell time on it.
Thanks!
I've always used PLD tank without problems. Wilt makes his TP moves very survivable.
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Feanorsof said: »
In regards to RNG setup on Vinipata, Paladin worked well for us although your RNGs have to take care with hate.
Although we have not been successful yet we only had a few tries and 2 RNGs + COR provided enough DPS and the most successful attempt got him down to 7%.
Having a WHM spam Banish III seemed to help. Our tank was interested in switching to RUN but has yet to attempt it.
Although we have not been successful yet we only had a few tries and 2 RNGs + COR provided enough DPS and the most successful attempt got him down to 7%.
Having a WHM spam Banish III seemed to help. Our tank was interested in switching to RUN but has yet to attempt it.
What is causing the losses?
a lot of multi boxing going on, the tank was dual boxing BRD and the RNG was tri-boxing BRD GEO. Losses were down to adds waking up unpredictably and sleeps not getting off in time. I think the 7% attempt failed as the RNG was concentrating on other roles so we lacked DPS with just one dedicated DD.
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
It's very strong. I've won several parses in an outside party with no unique support (just a frailty that was being given to a melee). However, it's not omnipotent. If I go SMN to farm cards, a full clear leaves me with only 7-10 minutes left. My DNC typically has more than 25 minutes left. BP recast is no joke.
Without Astral Conduit a top-geared SMN's DPS is maybe just a little bit higher than a normal DD, but it's limited by the BPs being on a single target. If I do 45k damage every 22 seconds but the target has only 15k HP, my real DPS is still pretty shitty.
Without Astral Conduit a top-geared SMN's DPS is maybe just a little bit higher than a normal DD, but it's limited by the BPs being on a single target. If I do 45k damage every 22 seconds but the target has only 15k HP, my real DPS is still pretty shitty.
This is perfectly fine and normal, SMN is "safe" damage without hate. Melee's are not only in range of crippling AoE's, but they frequently pull hate (if their any good) and have to deal with -DT and the occasionally random NM triple critical after TP move and get splattered. They also need a healer to sustain them while "safe" jobs don't. Ranged DD's are similarly safe but run into the issue where they need to either choose "hate free" damage from Relic gun + Relic WS or choose "Max damage" and risk pulling hate and the possible wipe from that.
Battle strategies are about compromises between pro's and cons. You chose a set of benefits and then do what you can to mitigate the negatives in order to win the fight. Some groups or fights would be better with safe damage, while others are ok with maximum up front damage.
Then AC SMN shows up and just blows all semblance of balance away. Those who use it rejoice as its' the greatest event to ever happen in their lives, those who don't abuse it complain and are ostracized by those who do.
clearlyamule said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Odin.Geriond said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People will gravitate to what is EFFECTIVE, or at least perceived to be so. Because losing fights is a waste of time.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
Its really that simple. Its also a far more rational approach than clinging to a job with limited utility out of stubborn "loyalty" or habit.
What is also rational is a desire to avoid a situation where the playing experience of a job is severely compromised by over-zealous or ill-considered "balance" adjustments. Time and again when SE do this they end up having to step-back on changes or make further adjustments because something has been broken in the process.
BST is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The wah-wah brigade cried about BST being "overpowered", and SE looked and saw that BST wasn't in fact too strong and instead gimped it by placing the pet on such an annoyingly short-leash that even circling around a large mob -with both pet and master engaged- could make all pet commands unresponsive.
Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. But the situation remains unrectified to this day.
Feanorsof said: »
In regards to RNG setup on Vinipata, Paladin worked well for us although your RNGs have to take care with hate.
Although we have not been successful yet we only had a few tries and 2 RNGs + COR provided enough DPS and the most successful attempt got him down to 7%. Having a WHM spam Banish III seemed to help.
Our tank was interested in switching to RUN but has yet to attempt it.
Although we have not been successful yet we only had a few tries and 2 RNGs + COR provided enough DPS and the most successful attempt got him down to 7%. Having a WHM spam Banish III seemed to help.
Our tank was interested in switching to RUN but has yet to attempt it.
We've beaten him plenty of times using alliances of people. RNG's kick his *** but needs lots of buffing and very careful debuffing, PLD's work better then RUN's because of the constant dispel. He will go into -50% PDT mode if he has 3 or more erasable debuffs on and flash counts, so you need to carefully choose if you want Distract III or Dia III (we use a RDM for supporting the rangers). Normally run with two tanks, first being a PLD who tries to hold vini the other being a PLD or RUN who just builds hates on the adds to try to hold them and buy time for the BRD to successfully sleep them.
I still use mages for Vinipata.
PLD RUN COR BRD SCH WHM
BLM BLM BLM BLM GEO GEO
is my go-to setup. Prebuff with wizards/warlocks, sv etudes/marches, firestorm2. BRD uses n/t/marcato/super revit and buys a new revit before pop. Sprinter's drink to camp, sleep adds, fire threnody vini as soon as pop. If threnody is dispelled, BRD immediately puts it back up and uses super revit so they are ready to troub/sleep if additional adds pop.
Change it to yaksha stance, ditch all buffs on PLD. GEOs put up bolster focus/malaise, normal int/languor, entrust acumen. RUN does gambit and rayke. Take 10-20% off per skillchain. Whole fight takes 3-5 min. BRD ready to sleep adds on pop, mages ready to change to single target. If damage is slower, you get a stray phase change, or whatever.. you have RD/wild card and a second bolster to blow along with super revitalizers.
I don't usually try to change phase back if it goes raksha during bolster, you can still squeeze out 10% per SC and drop it pretty quickly.
PLD RUN COR BRD SCH WHM
BLM BLM BLM BLM GEO GEO
is my go-to setup. Prebuff with wizards/warlocks, sv etudes/marches, firestorm2. BRD uses n/t/marcato/super revit and buys a new revit before pop. Sprinter's drink to camp, sleep adds, fire threnody vini as soon as pop. If threnody is dispelled, BRD immediately puts it back up and uses super revit so they are ready to troub/sleep if additional adds pop.
Change it to yaksha stance, ditch all buffs on PLD. GEOs put up bolster focus/malaise, normal int/languor, entrust acumen. RUN does gambit and rayke. Take 10-20% off per skillchain. Whole fight takes 3-5 min. BRD ready to sleep adds on pop, mages ready to change to single target. If damage is slower, you get a stray phase change, or whatever.. you have RD/wild card and a second bolster to blow along with super revitalizers.
I don't usually try to change phase back if it goes raksha during bolster, you can still squeeze out 10% per SC and drop it pretty quickly.
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