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~First and Final Line of Defense v2.0~
 Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2018-09-11 14:26:11
iirc block rate+ doesn't even lift Aegis from being floored
The issue with this idea is the way block+ factors in to the block formulas.
Block+ is factored before the floor. Example.
Say you're fighting a super high level NM, and the block formula puts your block rate at -10%, then the floor is applied, and block rate is set to 5%.
So, again but with +5 block. Take that initially calculated -10% block rate, then add the +5%. Now at -5% block rate. Apply floor. 5% blockrate. In this case the block+5 did absolutely nothing.
Now. this is only a problem if your pre-floor blockrate is lower than 5%.. but, well. Aegis. No ilvl skill...
Based on some prior tests and some math, I think that with 440 skill Aegis block rate should floor at about level 132 mobs. Anything lower than that and you'd be getting the full benefit of the Block+, but anything higher will start shaving away the benefits.
This isn't to say that block+ is worthless, but you may situationally see diminished or no returns from it with Aegis, depending on the mob level and how much total shield skill and block+ you have.
Regarding the Parry+. If that's like Inquartata in terms of mechanics(Added after the floor) then it's quite nice. But if it's not and it works like Block+ does... then that's going to be under the floor on pretty much everything. Needs to be tested. Also, unlike shield blocks parrying requires that we be engaged and potentially feeding TP. Not always a problem, but the parry+ is situational in this sense.
[+]
 Ragnarok.Martel
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2961
By Ragnarok.Martel 2018-09-11 14:41:21
Oooh, and I was even thinking about posting something. Solved via being quoted. If I'd even recalled I made that post I'd have just linked it. lol
[+]
By soralin 2018-09-11 18:00:15
So summarized: block rate on excal is pretty useless? The dmg boost is more important and burtgang reigns supreme?
Asura.Solymr
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 35
By Asura.Solymr 2018-09-11 20:23:55
Concerning Ochain. I've been like 40 dragon drops away from getting it to 90 for a billion years. Emp mats are part of this log in campaign. I could activate mules and finish. Would it ever be used? I have a geared pld (souv +1, aegis, etc). But my sets and skill level are rudimentary. I pretty much only use it if I'm desperate for ambu and thats the only shout.
It's not worth farming for but I would get it if it were "free" if it had any use. Does it?
By soralin 2018-09-12 17:43:39
The dragon drops only take a couple hours to farm up... >_>;?
Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2018-09-12 17:46:47
Azdaja horns are the fastest/easiest ones to get...
But anyway. Ochain doesn't see a ton of use anymore. You may as well get it, if it's worth it to you. It's significantly better to use those logins for glavoid or chloris, if you have even a the smallest interest in one of those weapons.
Asura.Gotenn
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 243
By Asura.Gotenn 2018-09-26 14:23:44
Going on the above topic. Is it worth it to tank with Ochain on for wave 3 Jeuno, Disjoined Mithra? She doesn't tend to do much magic damage to me, but I find that having floored block rate, isn't helping me much.
This puts a damper on me keeping hate since all my DD are already capped enmity. Currently I have been using Aegis but I don't remember her magic damage being that dangerous (San spells/skillchains?).
 Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-26 14:28:12
Ochain has floored block rate on wave 3? I thought you only get uncapped block rate for mobs at that high level.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 109
By Asura.Sirtaint 2018-09-26 14:36:37
Ochain has floored block rate on wave 3? I thought you only get uncapped block rate for mobs at that high level.
Assumes he used Aegis which has floored block rate, and is now considering Ochain in its place.
Ragnarok.Martel
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2961
By Ragnarok.Martel 2018-09-26 14:38:20
Ochain has floored block rate on wave 3? I thought you only get uncapped block rate for mobs at that high level. I think they're referring to their current blockrate while using Aegis. And thus are asking about using Ochain.
Cause there's no way Ochain has floored blockrate. But Aegis definitely does.
Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-26 14:48:19
Hmm... Outside of Ochain. Wouldn't you get a lot of mileage out of Priwen and Srivatsa if you get about +19 block rate from equipments? Excal, cape, souv., Earring.
Especially Priwen if you can keep reprisals up. It already have 90% block rate on lv126 mob with reprisals.
Asura.Gotenn
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 243
By Asura.Gotenn 2018-09-26 14:49:48
From what I understood above ilvl 131+ Priwen loses to Ochain
Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-26 14:54:09
Even with enhanced block rate from equipment?
Asura.Gotenn
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 243
By Asura.Gotenn 2018-09-26 15:41:05
Even with enhanced block rate from equipment?
This would be more of a question Martel can answer, I have Priwen, but I've stopped using it most ilvl content, but haven't seen any numbers 150+ for block rates.
Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-26 16:42:43
Do you have link to show lv131 content block rate?
It keeps bugging me to compare between Priwen, O.chain and Aeonic shields when you have +19 block rate from equipments.
Asura.Gotenn
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 243
By Asura.Gotenn 2018-09-26 16:47:34
Here is the post
This is what I was going off of.
Ragnarok.Martel
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2961
By Ragnarok.Martel 2018-09-26 17:01:02
Hmm... Outside of Ochain. Wouldn't you get a lot of mileage out of Priwen and Srivatsa if you get about +19 block rate from equipments? Excal, cape, souv., Earring.
Especially Priwen if you can keep reprisals up. It already have 90% block rate on lv126 mob with reprisals. Short answer. Nope!
Basically, priwen's base block rate tanks so hard as mob level increases that by the time you get up to higher content levels not even its reprisal enhancement can save it. Reprisal enhances your current base block rate, so if your base blockrate is crap.. crap*3 = still crap.
Also, Reprisal and block+ gear do not play nicely. The order of operations is (Base*reprisalmod)+ block+. So reprisal doesn't modify block+ gear at all. This is a bit of a kick in the nuts for priwen.
Now, adding block+/shield skill can help keep Priwen relevant for a few more levels upward. But Ochain can also benefit from that gear on these high end mobs, since it's block rate has uncapped.
As a specific example, lets take lvl 139. Why 139? cause I have samples at that level. And it's high enough to be comparable to Dynamis D.
Lvl 139 mob
440 base skill
Priwen
Base block rate 11.98%
Reprisal block rate:35.9
+19 block+ gear:54.9
Overall DMG reduction:48.3%
Ochain
Base block rate: 53.48%
Reprisal block rate: 80.14%
+19 block+ gear:99.1
Overall DMG reduction:64.5%
I think this should more or less speak for itself. But that's just 139 right? I believe disjoined is assumed to be higher level than that? A confirmed level would be nice, but I can't recall if anyone ever did a widescan packet for this.
Anyway, assuming a higher level means that Priwen's base blockrate would fall even further. By lvl 150 mobs it would certainly be below the floor.
To add insult to injury, Block+ gear, unlike inqaurtata+, is applied before the floor. So if your calculated block rate was -5%, while you'd still see 5% observed rate due to the floor, you'd have to add block+11 before you'd even see a single % of block rate gain.
Also, Srivatsa is complete crap. Unless you find your self in a situation where you don't need to block, and you don't need Aegis... and when does this ever happen? And even then it'd just be a High HP/Enmity+ piece.
Srivatsa's most realistic use is as a lockstyle piece.
[+]
Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2018-09-26 17:20:06
I actually think Srivatsa wasn't so bad for this months ambuscade!
Mostly ranged damage and zero magical damage
Asura.Gotenn
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 243
By Asura.Gotenn 2018-09-26 17:22:30
ItemSet 361652
Would something like this then be good for ilevel 139+ when you have 4~6 DD's staying capped enmity?
edit: I have a Nixxer if thats a better option, current tank set has Sov. Legs +1, Warder's Charm +1 and Hearty Earring
Ragnarok.Martel
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2961
By Ragnarok.Martel 2018-09-26 17:52:46
I actually think Srivatsa wasn't so bad for this months ambuscade!
Mostly ranged damage and zero magical damage I still think it's utter *** that Ranged attacks aren't shield blockable.
But yes, that would probably be one of the better uses for Srivatsa. That said, I think I'd still use Ochain on Lamia ambuscade. They do still melee, and some WS are physical/melee. Tailslap, etc. So you can help prevent stun, and zero out their melee hits by blocking to reduce TP gain. You know, until you have to turn around and let them hit you in the back to avoid gazes. -.-;
ItemSet 361652
Would something like this then be good for ilevel 139+ when you have 4~6 DD's staying capped enmity?
edit: I have a Nixxer if thats a better option, current tank set has Sov. Legs +1, Warder's Charm +1 and Hearty Earring If your DD actually have capped CE/VE, then what you wear is largely irrelevant, because the mob is only going to be looking at you for a small fraction of the time. If everyone is capping the mob should be spinning like a top changing targets every time you or a DD acts on it, and turning away from its target every time it hits them for any dmg.
In this situation there's little you can do to make a difference. Some of the DD in my LS have been subbing DRG so they can high jump off a chunk of their enmity as recast allows.
Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-26 18:57:19
Hmm... Outside of Ochain. Wouldn't you get a lot of mileage out of Priwen and Srivatsa if you get about +19 block rate from equipments? Excal, cape, souv., Earring.
Especially Priwen if you can keep reprisals up. It already have 90% block rate on lv126 mob with reprisals. Short answer. Nope!
Basically, priwen's base block rate tanks so hard as mob level increases that by the time you get up to higher content levels not even its reprisal enhancement can save it. Reprisal enhances your current base block rate, so if your base blockrate is crap.. crap*3 = still crap.
Also, Reprisal and block+ gear do not play nicely. The order of operations is (Base*reprisalmod)+ block+. So reprisal doesn't modify block+ gear at all. This is a bit of a kick in the nuts for priwen.
Now, adding block+/shield skill can help keep Priwen relevant for a few more levels upward. But Ochain can also benefit from that gear on these high end mobs, since it's block rate has uncapped.
As a specific example, lets take lvl 139. Why 139? cause I have samples at that level. And it's high enough to be comparable to Dynamis D.
Lvl 139 mob
440 base skill
Priwen
Base block rate 11.98%
Reprisal block rate:35.9
+19 block+ gear:54.9
Overall DMG reduction:48.3%
Ochain
Base block rate: 53.48%
Reprisal block rate: 80.14%
+19 block+ gear:99.1
Overall DMG reduction:64.5%
I think this should more or less speak for itself. But that's just 139 right? I believe disjoined is assumed to be higher level than that? A confirmed level would be nice, but I can't recall if anyone ever did a widescan packet for this.
Anyway, assuming a higher level means that Priwen's base blockrate would fall even further. By lvl 150 mobs it would certainly be below the floor.
To add insult to injury, Block+ gear, unlike inqaurtata+, is applied before the floor. So if your calculated block rate was -5%, while you'd still see 5% observed rate due to the floor, you'd have to add block+11 before you'd even see a single % of block rate gain.
Also, Srivatsa is complete crap. Unless you find your self in a situation where you don't need to block, and you don't need Aegis... and when does this ever happen? And even then it'd just be a High HP/Enmity+ piece.
Srivatsa's most realistic use is as a lockstyle piece.
Man, this shows them shields need those +269 skillz or even more to be on the same level.
Asura.Gotenn
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 243
By Asura.Gotenn 2018-09-26 20:45:51
So I used my Ochain on our run today. Only had haste 2 so my recast for reprisal wasn't always available. However the 6-700 damage weaponskills I was taking while wearing Aegis dropped down to 150 damage (I had a few extra new buffs as well, Earthen armor and carby protect).
Skillchain damage was laughable when the WS is blocked, and San spells were hitting for 400 damage each.
Cerberus.Genoside
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 113
By Cerberus.Genoside 2018-10-03 13:04:37
So instead of reading 50 page Srivatsa Yay or Nay?
Siren.Kyte
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3332
By Siren.Kyte 2018-10-03 13:07:14
You only had to read a couple posts up.
Cerberus.Genoside
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 113
By Cerberus.Genoside 2018-10-03 13:11:23
But its soooooo farr though.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 68
By Asura.Akivatoo 2018-10-04 17:14:02
Cerberus.Genoside said: »So instead of reading 50 page Srivatsa Yay or Nay? Nay
Asura.Gotenn
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 243
By Asura.Gotenn 2018-10-04 17:58:31
I'm going to put this out there so people don't have to search, here are the current sets I'm using. There are plenty of upgrades but to give people and idea of what to look for:
ItemSet 361825Code sets.engaged = { ammo="Staunch Tathlum",
head={ name="Souv. Schaller +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
body="Rev. Surcoat +3",
hands={ name="Souv. Handsch. +1", augments={'HP+65','Shield skill +15','Phys. dmg. taken -4',}},
legs={ name="Souv. Diechlings +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
feet={ name="Souveran Schuhs +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
neck="Warder's Charm +1",
waist="Flume Belt",
left_ear="Odnowa Earring +1",
right_ear="Hearty Earring",
left_ring="Defending Ring",
right_ring="Moonbeam Ring",
back={ name="Rudianos's Mantle", augments={'HP+60','Eva.+20 /Mag. Eva.+20','Mag. Evasion+10','Enmity+10','Mag. Evasion+15',}}}Code sets.precast.Enmity = { ammo="Paeapua",
head={ name="Souv. Schaller +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
body="Rev. Surcoat +3",
hands={ name="Souv. Handsch. +1", augments={'HP+65','Shield skill +15','Phys. dmg. taken -4',}},
legs={ name="Souv. Diechlings +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
feet={ name="Souveran Schuhs +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
neck="Moonlight Necklace",
waist="Creed Baudrier",
left_ear="Odnowa Earring +1",
right_ear="Trux Earring",
left_ring="Vexer Ring +1",
right_ring="Moonbeam Ring",
back={ name="Rudianos's Mantle", augments={'HP+60','Eva.+20 /Mag. Eva.+20','Mag. Evasion+10','Enmity+10','Mag. Evasion+15',}}}
Note: I have Weatherspoon ring for RNG. Code sets.precast.FC = { ammo={name="Egoist's Tathlum", priority=15},
head={ name="Carmine Mask +1", augments={'HP+80','STR+12','INT+12',}},
body="Rev. Surcoat +3",
hands={ name="Souv. Handsch. +1", augments={'HP+65','Shield skill +15','Phys. dmg. taken -4',}},
legs={ name="Souv. Diechlings +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
feet={ name="Carmine Greaves +1", augments={'HP+80','STR+12','INT+12',}},
neck={ name="Dualism Collar +1", priority=15},
waist= {name="Creed Baudrier", priority=15},
left_ear="Odnowa Earring +1",
right_ear={ name="Odnowa Earring", priority=15},
left_ring="Weather. Ring",
right_ring="Moonbeam Ring",
back={ name="Rudianos's Mantle", augments={'HP+60','Eva.+20 /Mag. Eva.+20','HP+20','"Fast Cast"+10','Spell interruption rate down-10%',}},}Code sets.midcast.FastRecast = { ammo={name="Egoist's Tathlum", priority=15},
head={ name="Carmine Mask +1", augments={'HP+80','STR+12','INT+12',}},
body="Rev. Surcoat +3",
hands={ name="Souv. Handsch. +1", augments={'HP+65','Shield skill +15','Phys. dmg. taken -4',}},
legs={ name="Souv. Diechlings +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
feet={ name="Souveran Schuhs +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
neck="Moonlight Necklace",
waist="Creed Baudrier",
left_ear="Odnowa Earring +1",
right_ear="Loquac. Earring",
left_ring="Weather. Ring",
right_ring="Moonbeam Ring",
back={ name="Rudianos's Mantle", augments={'HP+60','Eva.+20 /Mag. Eva.+20','HP+20','"Fast Cast"+10','Spell interruption rate down-10%',}},}
This set should cast on top of your precast enmity set. If your worried that you'll be missing enmity in the open slots, you can fill it in fully with your enmity gear. Code sets.midcast.SIRD = { ammo="Staunch Tathlum",
head={ name="Souv. Schaller +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',},priority=15},
legs={ name="Founder's Hose", augments={'MND+6','Mag. Acc.+6',}},
neck="Moonlight Necklace",
waist={ name="Creed Baudrier", priority=13},
right_ear="Knightly Earring",
left_ring={name="Vexer Ring +1",priority=14},
back={ name="Rudianos's Mantle", augments={'HP+60','Eva.+20 /Mag. Eva.+20','HP+20','"Fast Cast"+10','Spell interruption rate down-10%',}},priority=13}
Dualism collar to offset the loss of HP from mantle. Code sets.midcast.Phalanx = set_combine(sets.midcast.FastRecast, {
hands={ name="Souv. Handsch. +1", augments={'HP+65','Shield skill +15','Phys. dmg. taken -4',}},
feet={ name="Souveran Schuhs +1", augments={'HP+105','Enmity+9','Potency of "Cure" effect received +15%',}},
back={ name="Weard Mantle", augments={'VIT+2','DEX+2','Enmity+5','Phalanx +4',}},
neck={ name="Dualism Collar +1", priority=15},})
All of these sets are designed to keep you at or above 3000 hp, the only of which is Phalanx that drops me the most (2999 hp no food), all others are only ~100 loss. My engaged/supertank hp is 3141.
(edit: typo)
[+]
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 68
By Asura.Akivatoo 2018-10-05 10:49:49
I'm going to put this out there so people don't have to search, here are the current sets I'm using. There are plenty of upgrades but to give people and idea of what to look for: i can update the first page if need ^^
Ragnarok.Martel
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2961
By Ragnarok.Martel 2018-10-05 11:51:25
Hmm. this prompted me to actually look at the OP for the first time in possibly years.
I think basically every set in the OP is spectacularly out of date at this point. And probably needs a whole new section for High HP variant sets.
Honestly, looking back at this guide the whole thing feels more like a series of lists than a guide. List of JAs, list of traits, list of gear sets.
Not that some of these lists aren't quite useful. But there's little to no explanation of how to actually play the job, etc. Half of this guide could have been settled with a link to the BGwiki PLD page. Much like the section on enmity. A single paragraph with a link to the BGwiki enmity page. Which is a good resource, no doubt. But it doesn't tell you what to do as a PLD to keep hate. Perhaps it should be considered obvious, but for a hypothetical newb who's only read this guide, you wouldn't have a clue what actions to take on PLD even after reading the linked BG wiki pages. You'd have to go through PLD spells and JA one by one looking at CE/VE values and recasts... And there's not a single reference to subjobs at all. Though I note it is on the to do list. /BLU would be quite a Revelation to our hypothetical newb.
Perhaps it's about time for a rewrite. Or a completely new iteration.
[+]
Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2018-10-05 12:56:26
Hmm. this prompted me to actually look at the OP for the first time in possibly years.
I think basically every set in the OP is spectacularly out of date at this point. And probably needs a whole new section for High HP variant sets.
That's most of the guides dood. Someone writes em up, and quits. Touched up occasionally, months in between.
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