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OH MY GOD JINJO IS BACK

UPDATE THE MNK FORUMS BECAUSE OTHERWISE YOU PLAY THE EASY GAME THAT ONLY RELIES ON THE EASIEST METHOD TO WIN CONTENT AND YOU HAVE NO BRAIN

I QQ about melee buff because I have zero faith in SEs ability to balance jobs, they're best at over buff underdog jobs and broke balance. Better say it now before it happens.

Betting 10 gil that we're gonna see 30k ws avg soon :)

It doesn't matter if we still mage fest on T4 nm, 30k ws avg is broken as *** on every low tier content.

Make 1str=1att and 1dex=1acc for 2H pls SE
This will make aeonic staff more viable because blm can finally hit things <.<

Would argue that damage buffs for melee jobs come secondary to the fact that they will always require more support to be effective than a mage. Good luck ever changing that, and good luck convincing most people that bringing a melee party will make anything with a strong AoE (i.e.: nearly everything) go down easier, more quickly, and with less effort than with a mage party.

Don't even know where you get a 30k avg WS figure from even in the most incoherent internal monologue, if they touch weaponskill damage at all I doubt it would be even close to a double or triple damage increase.

More likely, weaponskill frequencies and attack mechanics, perhaps with an increase to fSTR or melee base damage as a whole, are incoming. Adjustments to skillchains to make them easier to perform would be nice too, but if skillchain adjustments were a part of this they would have been listed separately.

Where the *** are you getting that number? Physical WS's don't even average 10K in content over 125. The primary limiter for this is the 2.25 pDiff cap / 3.0 crit pDiff cap. mDiff (MATK/MDEF) has no known cap which is why Malaise with magic WS's / Nukes is so potent. Hitting 5.0+ mDiff is easily possible now. No amount of defense down / attack up stacking will allow melee damage to get anywhere near that kind of multiplier.

I said 30k avg IF they overbuff melee jobs. If thet remove pdif cap this update I can see that happening. Obviously Im just guessing it may happen, considering SE overbuffed so many jobs.

10k avg is def doable on escha T1 and 2 now. Also doable in SR, and reisenjima T1. Idk about you, I would rather see those content still retain some difficulty instead of seeing every melee crush it.

I would never imagine seeing 99999 dmg per nuke in 2012, and yet we see 99999 dmg nukes all the time now.

This is SE, never say never.

I feel people sometimes don't fully see the importance of this.
Bringing melees means you have to give them an insane amount of buffs even to just allow them to be able to hit the high-end targets, let alone them do some decent damage...
Which is why I was saying buffing their acc in my opinion should've been a higher priority than buffing the damage.

Having only mages in your party means you can synergize the buffs you use because you won't have to "waste" any buff slot from your buffers to give stuff to your melees.

Nope, I said average weapon skills.

Even with my OP BLU in a PLD WHM BLU COR GEO GEO setup with Frailty + Fury + Sams + Hunters I hit 8K averages. I'll definitely see some big nukers of something like Teodor, but against the higher Def boss's it won't happen. Escha Ru'an T2 I can hit high averages but Rein T2's it's not happening. The boss's simply have too much defense, well north of 2100. Idris GEO's with a RDM, BRD and COR could possibly stack enough defense down / attack up to go past 2.25 but they aren't going anywhere near 4.0 which is what would be needed for crazy high physical WS numbers on neutral targets. Otherwise you'd need something like 16+ fTP on a single hit SA WS to do this.

So stop crying already, right now combat mechanics are broke as ***. Physical damage is too weak for the amount of work required to enable it. Hell the whole reason BST's are Over Powered is that pets are classified as monsters and use the monster damage formula which has a pDiff cap of 4.0 and even they only got to 27K on an optimally buffed Razor Fang using Familiar and Run Wild (RW still broken). SE would have to do something insanely crazy to enable melee to do what your afraid of, we're talking 1 STR / DEX = 3~4 Atk / Acc, 5.0 pDiff cap, 4000~5000 HP with a 50 to 100% increase in fTP on weaponskills. Yeah that's not gonna happen.

They're two completely different cases. You can't buff the damage of a weaponskill in excess of 50% just by skillchaining first. They'll never raise the pDIF cap to a point where +attack -defense buffs/debuffs will be as effective as +magic attack -magic defense buffs/debuffs, either.

Lets not forget the fact you need Vex + Attunment or you might as well just go play pacman. The rampant use of debilitating status ailments makes melee based strats simply non-viable even assuming you can get enough buffs. The only reason Maju is doing with a melee is because it's debilitating ailments are conal and thus a melee can avoid the worst of it. The rest of the T3's all have stupid circular AoE debuffs that hit anyone within a 10~15 foot radius.

I specifically mentioned escha T2, not reisenjima. 20k avg is already very doable on escha T2, I've hit 21k avg before.

And yes, avg, not spikes.

Although none savage blade ws probably would not avg as high, it's still a physical WS, and it certainly has the potential to hit 30k range with a physical buff depending on how se gonna do it.

(I don't think T2 nm has physical dmg taken +?, because if they do then it's my bad.)

Those who are complaining about melee dmg being too weak, youre referring to higher lv content like reisenjima nm. But I've been talking about lower content the entire time. On those lower tier NM you don't really need that much buff.

if it's low tier content that can be rolled already anyway, who even cares

also please don't try to compare a weaponskill that can only deal a lot of damage @3000TP (which, last I checked, is still awful to save to) to magic which, when timed correctly, can be executed 4-6 times per magic burst (depending on how many mages you have).

Buffing acc would prevent low lv content being way too easy, thats what I was worrying about. But then I wonder why wouldn't SE just solve the issue by nerfing high lv NM evasion to begin with.

That's the point I was making on 1st page, 98% of content in this game are low lv content. It doesn't make sense if entire game has 98% of content with NM at fodder level. Id rather see smaller difficulty gap between low lv content and higher ones.

Yeah after reading her lines I get she's just spewing ***. Saving to 3000TP and then using that as "an average" is hilarious. When the rest of us talk "average" were talking 1000TP standard usages.

20K @3000 < 8~10K @1000 x 3 (10K just me being a little lucky on MA / crits on T2)

Might as well start comparing 3000TP SA Rudra's as "average".

People always tend to overestimate their weapon skill damage. They only remember the high TP / stacked / lucky mult-proc / crit WS's and ignore the unlucky / low TP / unstacked ones.

but if they're already considered low level content... then buffing melees will have little effect. they're already categorized as being easy or easier than other content, and from all I've seen most of the stuff you'd categorize as "low level" is ***that you'd be able to faceroll with a multitude of setups as it is.

even entertaining this insane fantasy of 30k average weaponskills, all it's going to do is make what is already easy go by faster and require less time to move on to the actual hard things which will then (maybe) have a wider array of viable setups. I say maybe because, as it has been stated numerous times, the risks and required preparation to bring a melee is so vastly unfair when compared to a mage setup that even with melees getting a damage buff, I don't see melee based setups becoming an established norm for any but the most bored of individuals seeking additional challenge.

I understand what you're saying and I can partially relate to that (altough I think in the end it's a dog biting its tail and there's no solution) but I also think people over these board can give the wrong impression.

What is facerolled by players like us on these boards, is not facerolled by everybody else.
I meet people who still STRUGGLE with stuff like Sinister Reign or T1 mobs in Zi'tah.
Yes, Zi'tah.
There are MANY players like that out there. Just because they don't post in here doesn't mean they don't exists or they do not constitute a number large enough for SE to consider them.


Leaving this necessary premise outside for a moment now, I said I can see what you're saying, but if overbuffing melees is a possibly dangerous solution, leaving things as they are is no good either.
If content is too easy, people are gonna get bored fast and then quit. (aside from other people who might enjoy collecting new toys just for the sake of having them, and we saw this happening already, didn't we?)
If content is too hard, people are gonna get frustrated fast and then quit.


What I'm saying is that the real problem here is having no somewhat constant stream of new content.
There is no solution to that.
Artificially prolong how much that content lasts by keeping it incredibly difficult only works up to a certain degree, past which people are gonna quit, exactely like they would if content were too easy.
So once again: there is no solution to this problem. The only solution is having new content being release, at which point you can freely "nerf" (within reason! There aren't only insane nerfs, can apply small ones as well!) old content.

more like you don't read and make up numbers in your mind. Can you point out WHICH post I said that I save 3000 tp when I WS? Well I may open with 3000 tp but tat's it. Savage blade can do well over 20k each WS on jobs with 1000+ tp bonus access AND certain augment from reisenjima gears(STR/WSD and such....mind you, it's +25% WSD from 5/5 reisenjima gears alone), if you WS on fodder lv target it's really not THAT unrealitic to avg 20k if you WS asap.

Also since you mentioned crit, we're not even on the same page about which WS we're talking about. It's pretty obvious that you're arguing for the sake of doing it.



Again, which post did you see me comparing the dmg of melee WS v.s mb? I've never mention anything about mage setup nor BLM MB. All I've been saying is that WS avg is already pretty high on low lv content, and I'm afraid it'll break the coontent difficulty balance if it goes higher.

Since you guys just keep putting words in my mouth, there's no point to continue this discussion.

If anything they should make current low lv content difficulty as it is, and nerf higher lv content so it's melee zergable, we'd have better content difficulty balance that way.

Considering that there is nothing to compare physical damage to aside from magic damage, it's logically implied.

You're whining incessantly about melee weaponskills becoming "too strong for low level content". The only alternative type of damage is the already "too strong" magic damage, which when set up properly will deal 40,000 - 99,999 damage per nuke, about 2 nukes per caster per magic burst. This is already an available option for your coveted low level content, and in addition, it is also the only viable method for defeating a vast majority of high level content.

No one is impressed by your 20,000 - 30,000 damage 3000TP Savage Blade estimates. They're trash, and even if they were optimal they still don't match the power of a volley of magic bursted nukes.

You still have yet to realize, also, that melee setups are by their very nature at a severe tactical disadvantage in a majority of fights in FFXI just due to the fact that they need to remain in melee range to continue to deal damage. This is called a collateral cost. You are paying for the damage that the melee does by making it require more work to continue to function. If anything, melee setups should be able to kill things faster, albeit with more difficulty, than a full mage setup. Ideally you would have melees working in conjunction with mages to provide the optimal setup, but as long as Immanence exists in its current state that will never happen.

So you can continue to whine, ***, and moan about low end content becoming faster, and easier to some individuals, until you go blue in the face; or, you can see the bigger picture and realize that it changes next to nothing, is extremely unlikely to be as bad as your conjecture states it will be, and if it has a positive effect on melee jobs at all, it will only be making them somewhat desirable for groups who don't mind the extra setup and difficulty and have the support to throw at them.


So you want them to keep "low level" content at its current difficuly while simultaneously making high level content easier, but also complain about low level content becoming too easy because of nerfs.

???

First of all, holy ***at the amount of personal attack over a game balance discussion.

And btw, by your logic why don't you ask SE to nerf MB dmg instead? Buffing melee jobs(or any underdog jobs) as a whole lowers average content difficulty, nerfing op jobs keeps the balance.



Because you guys are complaining about melee can't be used on high lv content? I'm just offering a solution.

But I don't think you understand my point at all, I'm just talking to a brick wall I guess.


Since you can't really read my points I'll tl;dr here for you:

Nerf op jobs, stop over buff underdog jobs.

You're entirely too sensitive if you find any of that to be a personal attack.



Several things wrong with this, and it proves that you haven't thought this through very much and are acting on impulse.

1) With the way fights are currently designed, reducing overall damage output will make them, in the best of cases, much more difficult to complete; and in the worst of cases, impossible to complete.

2) Bringing the underdog up to the top increases the number of available options without sacrificing the integrity of the current metagame. I doubt most people are going to cry into their pancakes about their Teodor taking 30 less seconds to kill than before.

3) It's increasingly obvious that your definition of "keeping the balance" is based on your personal opinion and experiences. What I'm seeing right now is that you want the easier content to remain at its current state while making the higher end content easier for... some reason? It's completely backwards, why would you want the easier content to remain... uh, easy, and then have the harder content become easier if your sole investment into this discussion is longevity of said content? It makes no sense, there's an extreme logical disconnect here. This change shouldn't be about making hard content easier, and having already easy content become easier isn't the problem here: the main issue at hand, that is with any luck being addressed by these changes, is the severe inflexibility of the current high level metagame that forces you to bring magic exclusive teams to high tier content. Alleviating this problem does not require making the hard content even harder by nerfing the only available means of reasonably clearing it, but instead requires bringing up the methods that are currently unable to be used to increase the number of ways that a piece of content can be completed without making the content either much easier or much harder. Unfortunately, when it comes to melees, making things equal is almost out of the question with the way XI is designed without making hard content too easy, and making hard content too easy is not an acceptable option.

With all of these insane buffs to the effectiveness of the player, there have also been insane buffs to what monsters are capable of doing and the damage that monsters are capable of sustaining. If we were still fighting 75 or pre-Adoulin 99 era monsters, the current buffs would be too much. Adoulin and RoV era monsters are far more hardy and far more deadly, they require far more support than ever before and as a result the big numbers, while pretty, aren't as overinflated as they seem. They've become necessary.

The main point I'm seeing from a lot of people here, with which I agree, is that we do NOT want endgame content to be made easy. We want it to be made flexible. When content absolutely requires an exact setup, there's a large problem.

I'm not saying that we should make endgame content able to be cleared by a fresh 119 melee. I'm saying that a veteran, dedicated, top-of-the-line melee should be welcome in the content.

That's why I suggested nerfing some of the higher content with MB dmg nerf as well well, so the difficulty remained the same as it is now.


Most players won't complain about game being too easy or things die too fast. That doesn't make it a good game design.



Of course my definition of balance is just my opinion. My opinion of difficulty balance= all content has small difficulty gap so we have more content vaireity when choosing what to do.

When I mentioned nerfing difficult content, what I meant was make it more melee friendly so ppl can do alternative setups. Maybe implement some sort of mechnics to reward pt using melee setup or something. I don't mean to kill the longevity of difficult content.

Sorry for the extra post, while I agree with your last point completely. I always feel the reason why current content has such crazy stats and deadly moves because they overbuffed certain melee jobs in 2014 to begin with. Since they refuse to nerf overbuffed jobs they're forced the counter with even tougher NMs to keep the difficulty in check.

That's why I'm against overbuffing jobs and their "don't nerf" policy. Because that means any future NM would be even more difficult and deadly. Although most players hate Tanaka, IMO Tanaka style barance with jobs/content difficulty was just right.

I think it's been a long time since you place this game, lets start:

- Solo T1 or T2 in 2 minutes? can you solo golden kist or the tonberry in reisen in 2 mins? i just saw 1 taru sch solo GK using all his tools at his disposal and it was longer than those 2 mins.

- Even a party of 6 would take longer than 30 secs per NM on SR with top gear, i agree this event is way easy but you make it look you can 1-shot every NM with your cor.

- Kill the behemoth in 2 mins yes with the right setup, several buffs and coordination, otherwise you'll wipe and hard (no room for mistakes).



Again misleading stuff:

- You can solo easy on escha-zitah, we agree on that because stuff there is just that easy, not just blu or bst can solo those (with or without trusts) but many other DD jobs as well, in sky or specially reisen nope, you just can solo certain ones (bugard for example) without much danger, stuff like golden kist, the malboro or the tonberry will give u a hard time.

- This buff wont kill any longevity, just give low man groups an even easier time to do the higher tiers without having to rely on shouts or having to buy gear from elite groups, just that.; the gear ladder comment is just a nonsense because if a friend came back to the game or joined the game recently, i wouldnt make her/him "climb" the abyssea > whatever > soa > escha gear ladder because of excuses like "they wont learn" or "gear proggresion", the fun starts at the max lvl not killing NMs in abyssea for seals.


- What balance? 2handers need some sort of buffing and ranged jobs too, right now its all about bst blu dnc and nukers/support, the rest of the jobs are used either in niche situations or in pet LS oriented groups (i'd love to have 1 of these in ragna ; ;), for the rest of the day you wont see most 2handers used.

- What do you understand by low content? 119 and lower? NNI? u can get stupid high numbers with 0 support on those contents already and what's the point on not "letting" ppl just destroy old content fast? who wants to spend 2 weeks farming 5 marrows on HNMls events when you can just farm em now with a buddy or alone in some hours.


- Dont see the pdif removal happening because it would make regular DDs more powerful yea but randy says hi lol, BSTs would love that buff (i know i would) making it pointless because more BST bandwagon would start again.

- When you say these avg numbers you mean alone? in a pt with buffs? idk, as i said be4, some reisen T1s can be just brutal or have niche -dt like the horse.


- Again misleading info, doing 99999 dmg on top stuff (lets say reisen T2 and beyond) requires very good gear and buffs, you dont see the average blm or sch 99999ing everything.

- I would never imagine seeing people solo ADL in 2012 and yet we
see dnc bst blu solo it all the time now.


- So now you're talking about low content "the entire time" and what's the point on bragging about the numbers that can be done on old content? you're just leaving yourself open to get owned left and right with these statements.

I was gonna keep quoting but prothescar basically wrote already what i was gonna so yea ill leave it here.

Also wanted to point out we are in the same server (ragna), i've been back since may2015 (roughly, it was around midmay) and i didnt see you in any party, shout or event yet which leads me to believe you are just posting stuff you read about others.

-P.S.: Dmg on trash stuff doesnt matter <_<.

-P.S2.: Edit, its phuoc here just posted with the other acc lol.

Byrth actually averages 10.5k Pyrric Kleos on Maju when we do it. This is with Frailty/Dia3/Chaos/Hunter's/x1 Madrigal/Precision/Torpor. And its PK, it sucks compared to cdc!!

You're basically just trying to look for a chance to win the argument by mentioning T1 T2= gold kist only.

T1/T2 can mean T1/T2 in any zone, and not necessary GK. I didn't say ALL T1/T2, but you're just trying to win the internet arugment by ninja adding "all" or "reisenjima" in front of T1/T2.


You're correct, I heard this from other ppl. It is Oraen who claim to kill SR wave 3 in 16 sec with COR.


Which is killing the longevity.


Escha is rather new content though. Ru'ann was out in 2015/08 I think?

Also I'm not against 2h dmg buff at all. Just aginst overbuff on certain melee jobs.


I sit in Bastok most of the time, you can come and find me if you miss me that much:)

Anyways, I can log on and poke you then talk about it in game if you want(In fact I'm on atm). But I don't see a reason to continue this discussion anymore as I already repeat my points repeatly.


-P.S.: Escha T1/T2 shouldn't be "trash" stuff. NNI, Abyssea maybe, but Escha is new content and it shouldn't be "trash".

Cut the rest.
I agree with you, the reason why some NMs are so annoying is because they overbuffed players, not just melees.
We've seen this thing happen in the past too, it's an endless cycle.

Player base reacts bad when you nerf something, so when you have two things A and B and A is very powerful and B sucks, devs tend to just buff B instead of nerfing A.
This is simply because of the reaction of the players, ultimately it's them who pay the monthly fees so we can understand the devs' fears.

But when you do this not once, not twice, but over and over and over you reach a point where players have way too much power at their disposal and can simply ignore most strategies initially meant by devs simply through sheer power.
This is especially true in a destructured and unhomogeneized game like FFXI where you can stack a plethora of different buffs together with hardly any limit.

To counteract that, they have to create more and more and more unfair/annoying mobs with the craziest combination of uber dangerous things, often making them frustrating and not fun to fight against.



But with that said, what do you suggest? Certainly a massive nerf to players mechanics is completely out of question. I don't see any possible and ideal solution to this problem as feasible.
The only thing they can do is small adjustments which won't solve the current situation entirely, but would make it better than it currently is at least. Which is sorta what Prothescar, Saevel and others have been saying.
Not ideal maybe, but at least realistic, possible and coherent with the current game paradygms.