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Seattle enacts $15 minimum wage
Serveur: Shiva
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Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-06-04 19:35:25
P. S. I STILL haven't seen the Seattle minimum wage ordnance posted anywhere. It's allegedly huge and complex. Or do you mean it hasn't even been posted to the 'net? Do ordinances (ordnance is a weapon, by the by, not a legislative action) need to be made publicly available via the 'net?
My union friends are longshoremen ILWU, seamen SUP, marine engineers MEBA, and stagehands ITASE. They all work, or worked, for a living, not loaf. No doubt it varies by region and profession. The majority of unions that I've run into have been UAW (United Auto Workers) and a variety of trade/construction unions. Even unionized construction workers here in this city tend to actually get work done, but other nearby cities have reported significantly inferior opinions.
Then again, when I was called in to help dig a ditch around some live conduit, the union workers who spent the bulk of the day looking at each other while one of them operated a digger (in total they spent maybe an hour actually shoveling some of the stuff that got shifted around) eventually got around to asking if I was with the electricians' union because I actually spent the entire day working.
 Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2014-06-04 20:05:23
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »It makes perfect sense. What part is throwing you off? I don't have 2 hours' worth of work, I have 8 hours' worth. 8 hours of minding the phone and handling small tasks that may present themselves cannot be condensed into 2 hours. You're still the problem, then. Find them more work or do it yourself. Which is exactly why I don't hire anyone for this position. Maybe you should focus less on getting in some criticism and more on grasping the point? Your point evaporates, then. You said "There are jobs that I don't want to pay someone minimum wage for" and then proceeded to describe a job that isn't worth employing someone for. That's a self-defeating point.
I followed you quite clearly. You just don't appear to know what you were arguing. I beg to differ. My point was that some jobs are worth LESS than minimum wage. I gave you an example. I still don't think you grasped the point. Because the job is worth an amount too low to pay, my choices are A). overpay for the position to be filled or B). leave it unfilled. Crystal clear.
By fonewear 2014-06-04 20:06:22
they can't all be six figure armchair executives like all of you. I lol'd.
I'm not in a armchair. I find this insulting to chairs.
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Serveur: Shiva
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-06-04 20:17:13
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Because the job is worth an amount too low to pay Because it's not a job, dummy.
Ono: Can you name a job that isn't worth at least minimum wage?
Tenshi: Yeah, go stand in a corner until I tell you not to and I'll give you as little money as I want.
That's not an example, it's a distraction. But it does show that you're not actually capable of naming a job worth less than $7.25 an hour.
You could have at least cited the one job that is permitted to be paid less than minimum wage: employing a minor as a babysitter. I'd argue that borders somewhere between child labor/exploitation and straight-up abuse of minimum wage laws, but it is coded into the federal minimum wage. So apparently taking care of and making sure that small children survive the evening is worth less than handing someone a sign and telling them to stand on a corner for 8 hours (a job that typically pays closer to $10/hour, anyhow). Yeah, America is *** stupid sometimes.
There's also a proviso that teenagers can be paid less than minimum wage during the first 90 days of their employment. Because that makes sense.
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 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-06-04 20:22:28
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Because the job is worth an amount too low to pay Because it's not a job, dummy.
Ono: Can you name a job that isn't worth at least minimum wage?
Tenshi: Yeah, go stand in a corner until I tell you not to and I'll give you as little money as I want.
That's not an example, it's a distraction. But it does show that you're not actually capable of naming a job worth less than $7.25 an hour.
You could have at least cited the one job that is permitted to be paid less than minimum wage: employing a minor as a babysitter. I'd argue that borders somewhere between child labor/exploitation and straight-up abuse of minimum wage laws, but it is coded into the federal minimum wage. So apparently taking care of and making sure that small children survive the evening is worth less than handing someone a sign and telling them to stand on a corner for 8 hours (a job that typically pays closer to $10/hour, anyhow). Yeah, America is *** stupid sometimes.
There's also a proviso that teenagers can be paid less than minimum wage during the first 90 days of their employment. Because that makes sense. Could have easily mentioned tipped wait staff (which the minimum wage differs, but is very rarely over 2.75 an hour, because they are paid on tips, as long as those tips are worth more than what the service staff would make in hourly wages, even marginally more so)
However, you are correct that Tenshi is confusing a duty or punishment (depending on scope of context) with an actual job. A job entails a list of duties that are required to be performed.
Serveur: Shiva
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-06-04 20:28:01
Also, I decided to do some checking.
From what I can find, the current minimum wage law in Australia is $16.37 in Australian dollars, which converts to $15.19 US. Rather makes me wonder how that works out for them and if anyone is looking at Australia during all this debate. They've had a considerably higher minimum wage than the US for at least 6 years now.
Or we could glance at the UK whose current minimum (£6.31) is just over the $10.10 figure the White House wants enacted. Canada's minimum wage is fairly close to the White House's goal, too.
I can't help but be curious if, during all these debates about the effects of changing the minimum wage, countries with a higher minimum have been glanced at. Even Japan pays better than us and they have a deserved reputation for working their employees like slaves.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-06-04 20:29:23
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Could have easily mentioned tipped wait staff (which the minimum wage differs, but is very rarely over 2.75 an hour, because they are paid on tips, as long as those tips are worth more than what the service staff would make in hourly wages, even marginally more so) Nah, tipped employees must, by law, make at least minimum wage. If their tips fall short of that, the employer has to make up the difference.
A lot of telemarketing companies have a related policy. They'll guarantee you $9/hour or your commission, whichever is higher. That's just a fun fact, though, not relevant to the discussion as I've never seen a telemarketing company offer minimum wage.
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-06-04 20:36:37
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Could have easily mentioned tipped wait staff (which the minimum wage differs, but is very rarely over 2.75 an hour, because they are paid on tips, as long as those tips are worth more than what the service staff would make in hourly wages, even marginally more so) Nah, tipped employees must, by law, make at least minimum wage. If their tips fall short of that, the employer has to make up the difference.
A lot of telemarketing companies have a related policy. They'll guarantee you $9/hour or your commission, whichever is higher. That's just a fun fact, though, not relevant to the discussion as I've never seen a telemarketing company offer minimum wage. ***, you're right. Brain is fried from the heat.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-06-04 20:44:13
They have heat in Canada?
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Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-06-04 20:46:26
We do.
Temps can get as high as 55 degrees Celcius in Calgary, but isn't usually so humid.
The temps can be high teens, and be chilly, or humid, increasing the perception of heat.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-06-04 20:49:51
Who is Celcius? Is that like 6 degrees of Keven Bacon?
By fonewear 2014-06-04 20:56:54
They have heat in Canada?
Briefly during July. The pasty white skin Canadians wake up from hibernation to gaze across the border to watch us.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-06-04 20:58:57
They have heat in Canada?
Briefly during July. The pasty white skin Canadians wake up from hibernation to gaze across the border to watch us. During Canadian Independence Day?
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-06-04 20:59:30
They have heat in Canada?
Briefly during July. The pasty white skin Canadians wake up from hibernation to gaze across the border to watch us. We do. It's better than Canadian television, which is just a picture of a Moose beating up a goose, while a beaver referees.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-06-04 21:04:58
They have heat in Canada?
Briefly during July. The pasty white skin Canadians wake up from hibernation to gaze across the border to watch us. Or the jackass Acadians come down into New England and ruin everything by thinking they're hoity-toity Parisians instead of backwoods pig-*** with even worse tourist traits than Americans.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-06-04 21:06:38
Stop being so Canadaphobic.
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Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-06-04 21:06:41
Incidentally, we get a lot of the same from Americans coming up here.
By fonewear 2014-06-04 21:08:27
I love Canada it is like that cousin you never go to visit but you know where they are.
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Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-06-04 21:09:20
Actually, we're more like the younger brother you stuffed in the closet.
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By fonewear 2014-06-04 21:14:58
There is a joke there but it is a bit too on the nose.
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-06-04 21:16:13
*** please, We're Fabulous!
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Serveur: Shiva
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-06-04 21:16:36
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Incidentally, we get a lot of the same from Americans coming up here. I was given to understand that Canadians hate Acadians, too. They're French Canadians with none of the charm (not that I can name any redeeming traits of French Canadians in the first place).
But I'm probably extra snotty since I'm a francophone who studied Parisian French rather than Québécois. Because why would I want to learn the pigfucker version of French? I take enough stink for speaking the language of France in the first place.
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-06-04 21:20:12
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Incidentally, we get a lot of the same from Americans coming up here. I was given to understand that Canadians hate Acadians, too. They're French Canadians with none of the charm (not that I can name any redeeming traits of French Canadians in the first place).
But I'm probably extra snotty since I'm a francophone who studied Parisian French rather than Québécois. Because why would I want to learn the pigfucker version of French? I take enough stink for speaking the language of France in the first place. Most Canadians are content with leaving the Quebecers alone, which differ greatly from the Quebecois. The General populace does indeed use a butchered version of Anglo-French, or Franco-English, but are generally nice people.
I've not personally dealt with Acadians (other than the car), so i don't have any first hand experience. I also learned French from a former citizen of France, as my French teacher, though i retained very little due to lack of practice.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-06-04 21:25:20
Seriously? You act like its that person fault lol.... You think a regular cashier can magically force people to show up who called out or work a schedule so they have more help? That is managements job, not a cashier. Cmon man, can't always blame the cashier. Never understand why some people come into stores thinking the cashier is some idiot who can't get a better job.
Pretty sad to see some people in this thread think of the min. wage workers as beneath them. These are people trying to work their way up too, they can't all be six figure armchair executives like all of you.
I only snapped because the cashier was taking too long. I've worked in hospitality/retail before so I generally sympathize for cashiers and sales associates. Long line of customers? work faster. The POS is not complicate.
I don't think min. wage positions are beneath me, whatsoever, I've done them at one point. Regardless, I still think they are unskilled labor positions that any individual can do. Operating a POS in any retail/hospitality environment is pretty easy now a days .
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2014-06-04 22:39:07
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby said: »Because the job is worth an amount too low to pay Because it's not a job, dummy.
Ono: Can you name a job that isn't worth at least minimum wage?
Tenshi: Yeah, go stand in a corner until I tell you not to and I'll give you as little money as I want.
That's not an example, it's a distraction. But it does show that you're not actually capable of naming a job worth less than $7.25 an hour. So because it doesn't help your argument it's not a job? It IS worth less than $7.25/hr, and so are lots of jobs that don't exist because people can't justify paying someone $7.25 or more for them to do it. It's almost amusing how you squirm when faced with certain defeat in a debate lol...
Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby
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By Gilgamesh.Tenshibaby 2014-06-04 22:41:09
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Incidentally, we get a lot of the same from Americans coming up here. I was given to understand that Canadians hate Acadians, too. They're French Canadians with none of the charm (not that I can name any redeeming traits of French Canadians in the first place).
But I'm probably extra snotty since I'm a francophone who studied Parisian French rather than Québécois. Because why would I want to learn the pigfucker version of French? I take enough stink for speaking the language of France in the first place. Acadians are the Cajuns of Louisiana, who single-handedly dash any hope the UK has of being taken seriously while being condescending to American cuisine.
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-06-04 22:46:18
Acadian genealogy covers both Cajun Americans and French Canadians, because of the language, and history of French Settlers of Acadia.
 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-06-05 09:37:07
P. S. I STILL haven't seen the Seattle minimum wage ordnance posted anywhere. It's allegedly huge and complex. Or do you mean it hasn't even been posted to the 'net? Do ordinances (ordnance is a weapon, by the by, not a legislative action) need to be made publicly available via the 'net? I have often said I can't spell.
I want to read it. I want to understand it. Yes, ordinances do need to be made publicly available but I don't think web publishing is mandated yet.
Quote: ....
Then again, when I was called in to help dig a ditch around some live conduit, the union workers who spent the bulk of the day looking at each other while one of them operated a digger (in total they spent maybe an hour actually shoveling some of the stuff that got shifted around) eventually got around to asking if I was with the electricians' union because I actually spent the entire day working. Too good /laugh
Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-06-05 09:43:06
....
But I'm probably extra snotty since I'm a francophone who studied Parisian French rather than Québécois. Because why would I want to learn the pigfucker version of French? I take enough stink for speaking the language of France in the first place. The speakers of Québécois have said that theirs is the purer form of French. They are probably right. Pure =/= useful nor comprehensible though.
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2014-06-05 09:46:30
Also, I decided to do some checking.
From what I can find, the current minimum wage law in Australia is $16.37 in Australian dollars, which converts to $15.19 US. Rather makes me wonder how that works out for them and if anyone is looking at Australia during all this debate. They've had a considerably higher minimum wage than the US for at least 6 years now.
Or we could glance at the UK whose current minimum (£6.31) is just over the $10.10 figure the White House wants enacted. Canada's minimum wage is fairly close to the White House's goal, too.
I can't help but be curious if, during all these debates about the effects of changing the minimum wage, countries with a higher minimum have been glanced at. Even Japan pays better than us and they have a deserved reputation for working their employees like slaves.
You get like $16.55 at McDonald's here (we don't have minimum wage though)
Seattle enacts $15 minimum wage, a phased in big dream
Article without the ordnance itself but its complex.
Selected quotes:
Quote: Phased in over three to seven years, Seattle will have the highest minimum wage in America. We’ll still be a couple dollars below Australia....
“While this is a bold proposal, it is a moderate proposal: There’s a seven-year phase in,” Mayor Ed Murray said. The process of compromise brought “huge wins” for business, particularly small business, during implementation, the mayor added....
Inside the council chamber, however, attacks on the plan came from the left. Backed by a crowd of chanting supporters — and speaking to the crowd — Socialist City Council member Kshama Sawant tried to rollback provisions such as training wages and a temporary incorporation of tips into the $15 wage base....
At the same time, Sawant was declaring victory, saying that the battle for a $15-an-hour wage was “won on the streets,” adding, “We defeated the arguments of business in the corporate media....”
The sharpest critique of Seattle’s process has come from David Meinert, owner of The Comet Tavern and 5-Point Cafe, and a member of Murray’s task force. Meinert aired blunt opinions of the wage plan on his Facebook page last week....
“We have a messy ordinance with four different minimum wages, different phase in times for different businesses, a move away from standard definitions of what a business is and what an employee is, and confusing elements like ‘phasing out’ of tips and health care benefits.”
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