Are You A Lukewarm Christian?

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Are You A Lukewarm Christian?
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-30 22:09:01
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Where did God come from?
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-01-30 22:09:34
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Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
No. The beginning will always be something from nothing which is illogical by it's definition. Incoming 3 pages where you try to redefine "logic"?
The idea of time having a starting point is illogical by any measure. What evidence is there that time ever didn't exist? Nobody here is an astrophysicist, this conversation will serve only to further pollute this thread.
Well there is either a beginning or there is no beginning. Is it logical to have no beginning? Nope. So a begininning would also be the birth of time. So yeah again we are at a creative force that occupied no space and transcended time to 'splode out everything in the Universe including space and time. Not logical.

So really, we have people who believe that humanity was an accident getting mad at people who believe that humanity has a purpose and a future because it's "illogical", even though they also can't explain how the universe came to be either.
 
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-01-30 22:11:28
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Who's getting mad? Get over yourself, we're just talking.
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 Phoenix.Amandarius
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-01-30 22:13:01
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Where did God come from?

To believe in a God you would have to believe in something that can transcend space and time. So where did God come from would be a trick question. Where or when cannot even be considered for something that does not exist in space or time.
 
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-30 22:16:46
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
So really, we have people who believe that humanity was an accident getting mad at people who believe that humanity has a purpose and a future because it's "illogical", even though they also can't explain how the universe came to be either.

Physicists are working on answering that question and will have evidence to back up their claims if they ever manage to figure everything out. The more we look at the universe, the more questions and challenges appear for humanity to tackle. There is no shame in saying "we don't know" and in fact it is a very humble answer.

Compare this to the arrogance of believing that people two thousand years ago above all other peoples on Earth figured out the universe and all its workings. The astounding arrogance that your origin story is somehow more legitimate than the thousands of origin stories that have been told across Earth.

Maybe Odin really did lose his eye to gain knowledge from Yggdrasil or maybe Athena really did sprout from the head of Zeus. Or maybe our universe really is perched on the back of a giant tortoise. Or maybe Amaterasu, Susanoo and Tsukiyomi really did create the universe.

All of those things have as much evidence as your beliefs. The only difference is that your religion won out politically and through military force.
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 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-30 22:21:03
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Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Where did God come from?

To believe in a God you would have to believe in something that can transcend space and time. So where did God come from would be a trick question. Where or when cannot even be considered for something that does not exist in space or time.

Wrong.

To believe in your God, you have to follow those rules. God could easily be some sufficiently advanced aliens who created this universe as part of a weekend science project. Prove me wrong.

"Look mom, the humans are trying to find me. Silly humans. You'll be extinct in the next 10,000 years when I use the comet tool to wipe out your planetoid."
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2014-01-30 22:21:22
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Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Where did God come from?

To believe in a God you would have to believe in something that can transcend space and time. So where did God come from would be a trick question. Where or when cannot even be considered for something that does not exist in space or time.


If you're following that line of thought though, wouldn't a god's existence be equally illogical?

EDIT: It seems I was beaten.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-01-30 22:21:57
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
So really, we have people who believe that humanity was an accident getting mad at people who believe that humanity has a purpose and a future because it's "illogical", even though they also can't explain how the universe came to be either.
Physicists are working on answering that question and will have evidence to back up their claims if they ever manage to figure everything out. The more we look at the universe, the more questions and challenges appear for humanity to tackle. There is no shame in saying "we don't know" and in fact it is a very humble answer. Compare this to the arrogance of believing that people two thousand years ago above all other peoples on Earth figured out the universe and all its workings. The astounding arrogance that your origin story is somehow more legitimate than the thousands of origin stories that have been told across Earth. Maybe Odin really did lose his eye to gain knowledge from Yggdrasil or maybe Athena really did sprout from the head of Zeus. Or maybe our universe really is perched on the back of a giant tortoise. Or maybe Amaterasu, Susanoo and Tsukiyomi really did create the universe. All of those things have as much evidence as your beliefs. The only difference is that your religion won out politically and through military force.

Is this comparable to the arrogance in an atheist saying he knows for a fact that my beliefs are wrong when he can't prove it either?
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By fonewear 2014-01-30 22:23:29
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Where did God come from?

To believe in a God you would have to believe in something that can transcend space and time. So where did God come from would be a trick question. Where or when cannot even be considered for something that does not exist in space or time.

Wrong.

To believe in your God, you have to follow those rules. God could easily be some sufficiently advanced aliens who created this universe as part of a weekend science project. Prove me wrong.

"Look mom, the humans are trying to find me. Silly humans. You'll be extinct in the next 10,000 years when I use the comet tool to wipe out your planetoid."

Whatever drugs you are on I want them.
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By fonewear 2014-01-30 22:24:33
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Also in before page ten craziness. Atheists always there to prove something they can't prove.
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 Phoenix.Amandarius
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-01-30 22:28:48
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Where did God come from?

To believe in a God you would have to believe in something that can transcend space and time. So where did God come from would be a trick question. Where or when cannot even be considered for something that does not exist in space or time.

Wrong.

To believe in your God, you have to follow those rules. God could easily be some sufficiently advanced aliens who created this universe as part of a weekend science project. Prove me wrong.

"Look mom, the humans are trying to find me. Silly humans. You'll be extinct in the next 10,000 years when I use the comet tool to wipe out your planetoid."

Well no because aliens would have to come from somewhere and occupy space and exist in time. If you want to use logic, then a God is the only logical conclusion. We can learn and learn and learn for centuries about the origins, but the indisputable fact will be that there was an origin. And if there was an origin, the illogical conclusion would be that the Universe was created from nowhere from nothing with no cause. The logical conclusion would be a creative force that was not bound by space, because there was no space, and not bound by time, because there was no time and created all energy and matter which would be then bound to those space/time dimensions. And that to me a clear cut definition of God. You can call that creative energy whatever you want or choose to believe in the illogical conclusion that the Universe just appeared out of nowhere from nothing.
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-30 22:29:30
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Burdens always on the person making claims peeps.

Also, considering many religions owe themselves to shamans using drugs to better contact the gods/enter the spirit realm, I'm not too far off the mark.

Now if I could only get my LSD induced visions to be accepted by the masses....
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By fonewear 2014-01-30 22:29:45
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Where did God come from?

Might as well define "nothing" in the Philosophical sense while you are at it.

After you do that tell me how to overcome nihilism.
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-30 22:39:40
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fonewear said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Where did God come from?

Might as well define "nothing" in the Philosophical sense while you are at it.

Again, the burden of proof is on the people making God claims. Where is your evidence that the universe needs a God entity to exist because last I checked humanity thought (a few centuries aho) that lightning was magical Thor power before we put pen to paper and discovered that electricity is a force that can be harnessed to create light, another force that we once attributed to the gods. Flight? Again, once considered the mysterious forces of the gods at work before some dudes at Kitty Hawk soared into the clouds and once again debunked the need for a god of flight.

Your computer is running on the power of the would-be gods. Fascinating.

Going beyond the "God must have created the universe" claim is the next leap without evidence which that one specific god of thousands is the correct god. A claim of such absurd arrogance that it puts any idea that agnostics/atheists are arrogant to bed.
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By Ciri Zireael 2014-01-30 22:40:59
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 Ragnarok.Yatenkou
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By Ragnarok.Yatenkou 2014-01-30 22:42:05
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Personally it comes down to who you are yourself. I'm a Christian, though I admit I've probably fallen into lukewarm plenty of times, but I don't shun nor hate someone for who they are. Homosexual? That's cool. Other religion? We're humans, we can just not talk about religion unless it's interesting tidbits.

I can't handle hating or being hated, it's like a huge gut wrenching sensation, I don't like the feeling but there'll always be someone out there. I know this one guy whom I go to university with, if anyone ever talks about a religion, he'll go out of his way to make them feel stupid. Now typically I don't get involved, but is it ok to step up in front of him and warn him that those kinds of behaviors have repercussions? I'm at a loss for what I'm supposed to do...
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-01-30 22:46:49
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I dunno, I think the burden of proof falls upon the atheists. Why? Because they have nothing to offer. If I believe there's an afterlife, why in the world would I abandon that just so I can accept your belief that death is the end of everything? Give me a good reason.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-30 22:47:28
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
No. The beginning will always be something from nothing which is illogical by it's definition. Incoming 3 pages where you try to redefine "logic"?
The idea of time having a starting point is illogical by any measure. What evidence is there that time ever didn't exist? Nobody here is an astrophysicist, this conversation will serve only to further pollute this thread.
Well there is either a beginning or there is no beginning. Is it logical to have no beginning? Nope. So a begininning would also be the birth of time. So yeah again we are at a creative force that occupied no space and transcended time to 'splode out everything in the Universe including space and time. Not logical.

So really, we have people who believe that humanity was an accident getting mad at people who believe that humanity has a purpose and a future because it's "illogical", even though they also can't explain how the universe came to be either.

Maybe some, but that's mostly irrelevant. I'll take admission of ignorance over hubris in ignorance any day. And that's the most basic of the differences, I'm only really concerned with religious ideals of any flavor controlling legislation. Certain laws may be in accordance with Christian or other beliefs but are also logical and moral (can't murder, steal), others are logical and moral and incompatible with most religions, etc. There is a very good reason that the 1st amendment is written as it is.
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By Ciri Zireael 2014-01-30 22:50:35
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I dunno, I think the burden of proof falls upon the atheists. Why? Because they have nothing to offer. If I believe there's an afterlife, why in the world would I abandon that just so I can accept your belief that death is the end of everything? Give me a good reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
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By fonewear 2014-01-30 22:51:26
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I do think it is funny that people that don't believe in God get so offended by even the mention of it though.
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By Tymoris 2014-01-30 22:53:41
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Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Where did God come from?

To believe in a God you would have to believe in something that can transcend space and time. So where did God come from would be a trick question. Where or when cannot even be considered for something that does not exist in space or time.

Wrong.

To believe in your God, you have to follow those rules. God could easily be some sufficiently advanced aliens who created this universe as part of a weekend science project. Prove me wrong.

"Look mom, the humans are trying to find me. Silly humans. You'll be extinct in the next 10,000 years when I use the comet tool to wipe out your planetoid."

Well no because aliens would have to come from somewhere and occupy space and exist in time. If you want to use logic, then a God is the only logical conclusion. We can learn and learn and learn for centuries about the origins, but the indisputable fact will be that there was an origin. And if there was an origin, the illogical conclusion would be that the Universe was created from nowhere from nothing with no cause. The logical conclusion would be a creative force that was not bound by space, because there was no space, and not bound by time, because there was no time and created all energy and matter which would be then bound to those space/time dimensions. And that to me a clear cut definition of God. You can call that creative energy whatever you want or choose to believe in the illogical conclusion that the Universe just appeared out of nowhere from nothing.

How many infinities do you think exist?
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-30 22:54:55
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fonewear said: »
I do think it is funny that people that don't believe in God get so offended by even the mention of it though.

Who's offended? You have your right to peddle your religion and I have my right to disagree. If you can't take the heat, get off the internet.

You should be saying that the religious typically can't stand having their beliefs challenged. It's why the fundamentalists use fear and intimidation to keep dissent down.
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By Tymoris 2014-01-30 22:56:02
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fonewear said: »
I do think it is funny that people that don't believe in God get so offended by even the mention of it though.

Considering all that has happened even in modern western societies over the past 40-50 years I'd say it's logical. Social reflexes and all.
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By Ciri Zireael 2014-01-30 22:56:27
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fonewear said: »
I do think it is funny that people that don't believe in God get so offended by even the mention of it though.

People could say the same about people that get enlivened by vocal atheists. Anyone being vocal is annoying as ***.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-01-30 22:58:25
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Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
Well no because aliens would have to come from somewhere and occupy space and exist in time. If you want to use logic, then a God is the only logical conclusion. We can learn and learn and learn for centuries about the origins, but the indisputable fact will be that there was an origin. And if there was an origin, the illogical conclusion would be that the Universe was created from nowhere from nothing with no cause. The logical conclusion would be a creative force that was not bound by space, because there was no space, and not bound by time, because there was no time and created all energy and matter which would be then bound to those space/time dimensions. And that to me a clear cut definition of God. You can call that creative energy whatever you want or choose to believe in the illogical conclusion that the Universe just appeared out of nowhere from nothing.
A God (which I'm defining as a supernatural force as that's how I'm reading it from the context of this thread) can't be the logical conclusion because it just delays the answer to the question. Who created the creator?

If this creative force or entity existed outside of current physical laws, then perhaps it is unknowable. Perhaps the moment of creation was when the old rules became the current rules. But I always feel some trepidation in speaking in such terms because I realize there is real research and theories that are concerned with the universe's creation and physics was honestly my worst subject.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-01-30 23:01:12
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Guess people should stop voicing their opinions then.

I'm the type of person who can have a heated conversation with a theist then knock back beers and chat about some other random ***. Simply because we don't agree on metaphysical claims doesn't mean we can't be friends.

Just don't tell me I can't voice my opinion because it offends your sensitive little eyes and ears. And don't tell me that you want to infringe upon separation of church and state because it doesn't end well. Take a look at the cesspools across the globe. Go live in one if you want a theocratic nation.

Practice your religion and accept we infidels exist. If its such a problem, you can watch us all roast in hell or whatever metaphysical deathtraps you believe your loving god has concocted for us. Kinda boring though. You'd think more important things would be going on in the afterlife than watching humans get tortured.

Like football!
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2014-01-30 23:01:56
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I dunno, I think the burden of proof falls upon the atheists. Why? Because they have nothing to offer. If I believe there's an afterlife, why in the world would I abandon that just so I can accept your belief that death is the end of everything? Give me a good reason.


My thoughts are that the fact that I came to exist, despite the chances at each level of probability being infinitely low, is in many ways far more beautiful than the idea that I exist because a greater being willed it so. It bolsters my appreciation in my existence, and no matter how misogynist or pessimistic I ever become, I can always be comforted by it.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-30 23:06:32
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I dunno, I think the burden of proof falls upon the atheists. Why? Because they have nothing to offer. If I believe there's an afterlife, why in the world would I abandon that just so I can accept your belief that death is the end of everything? Give me a good reason.

There is evidence for the current understanding of the universe presented by scientists, there is no evidence for the version offered by religion (in general). Atheists are making no claim, they say that they don't know how it started but are working to understand it.

There is currently no reason to believe that anything does continue after death, the accounts of people who have been revived have little credibility and there has never been a documented case of continued existence after death.

Going strictly by the facts, Religion (again in general) makes claims it cannot support by any testable means, whereas everything science claims is supported by tests and experiments that can be repeated with the same results indefinitely.
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