Supreme Court OKs Taking DNA From Arrestees

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Supreme Court OKs Taking DNA From Arrestees
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 Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 14:51:31
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Odin.Akhilleus said: »
I think D.N.A samples should be taken at birth. If they commit a crime during their lifetime the police will have a much easier time of tracking the criminal down if they left a sample behind on the scene. This saves the taxpayer money and also makes potential criminals think twice about doing something they shouldn't be doing.
Again, no thank you.
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 15:03:30
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Alexander.Carrelo said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
I'll take "Where the *** is my right to privacy and innocence until proven guilty" for 400, Trebek.
I can see the right to privacy issue, but not the innocence issue. Taking your DNA isn't the same as indicting you, unless (and only if) you are in fact guilty.

The way I see it, the courts have already decided that it is permissible to maintain a database for the DNA of high-risk individuals (convicted felons, people entitled to fewer privacy rights) and are now in the process of deciding what exactly constitutes a high-risk individual. Apparently, being arrested in conjunction with a major crime has been added to the definition. Knowing that their tracks will be harder to cover in the future, these high-risk individuals will supposedly be less inclined to participate in future criminal activity. This is the obvious upside to having a DNA database, but I have questions about the downside.

Out of curiosity (and not argumentation--I admittedly have not chosen a side in this particular debate), what exactly are we worried the people in the police department will do with that DNA? Aside from the things that we agree they should do with it, of course.

I'm confused about the statement I bolded above. When you are arrested you have been indicted, or the DA can file papers to arrest you, or the offices can arrest on probable cause (but this can later be dropped without charges). This is how I understand the procedure to work, but someone else with more knowledge can chime in.

Which actually makes me wonder, if you are arrested on probable cause of a "serious crime" and then the charges are dropped, has the DNA been taken and if so is it still used? Are fingerprints and mug shots still used? Run through databases and kept on file? I imagine it probably varies state by state.

To answer your question, I'm not worried about the government "doing" anything specific. I'm concerned that people are lazy or incompetent or are having a bad day and that false positives/human errors occur. I'm worried that DA's have previously been all of the above and don't care about other evidence besides DNA. As the saying goes "Don't assume malice when stupidity will do".
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 15:05:47
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Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
So, this reminds me of something! A couple of years ago one of our office assistants who was on hourly wage had to apply for Medicaid to curb the cost of prenatal care, labor, pediatrics, etc. since she couldn't afford the cost of insurance offered by our company. After she came back from maternity leave, she had told us that because her care had been provided via Medicaid in the state of Texas, she couldn't check out without signing away permission for a DNA sample from her newborn daughter.

I'm not sure about the validity of this, but I'm curious as to whether other states also do this if it is true.

I just read about this happening recently.
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech-technology-and-liberty-womens-rights/newborn-dna-banking

Edit: Wish ACLU would post sources. Here is a wiki article which discusses the Newborn Screening Saves Lives Act of 2007
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 15:32:27
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The Act in dispute in the SCOTUS case stipulates that DNA evidence is destroyed if charges are dropped. It was mentioned in the decision.

Quote:
If “all qualifying
criminal charges are determined to be unsupported by
probable cause . . . the DNA sample shall be immediately
destroyed.” §2–504(d)(2)(i). DNA samples are also de­
stroyed if “a criminal action begun against the individual
. . . does not result in a conviction,” “the conviction is
finally reversed or vacated and
no new trial is permitted,”
or “the individual is granted an unconditional pardon.”
§2–511(a)(1).
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 Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2013-06-04 15:34:02
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
Caitsith.Zahrah said: »
So, this reminds me of something! A couple of years ago one of our office assistants who was on hourly wage had to apply for Medicaid to curb the cost of prenatal care, labor, pediatrics, etc. since she couldn't afford the cost of insurance offered by our company. After she came back from maternity leave, she had told us that because her care had been provided via Medicaid in the state of Texas, she couldn't check out without signing away permission for a DNA sample from her newborn daughter.

I'm not sure about the validity of this, but I'm curious as to whether other states also do this if it is true.

I just read about this happening recently.
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech-technology-and-liberty-womens-rights/newborn-dna-banking

Edit: Wish ACLU would post sources. Here is a wiki article which discusses the Newborn Screening Saves Lives Act of 2007

Interesting! I wasn't even given the option in February, but I also opted into having my son's cord blood banked. Either way, his DNA and half of mine are saved. So...

/shrug
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-06-04 16:22:56
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Quote:
If I was arrested for something I didn't do, I don't think I'd mind surrendering a DNA sample that might expedite my release. If that same sample led to my subsequent re-arrest for something I did do, well... maybe I shouldn't have committed a serious crime.

That's not how the legal system in the USA works, nor is it how it should work.

4th and 5th amendments are there for a reason. Your presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by trial of your peers (aka jury) but assumed guilty by thugs.

YouTube Video Placeholder


The police are not your friends. They exist for the sole purpose of finding people for the district attorney to prosecute, nothing more. Their not there to protect you, prevent crime or otherwise maintain the peach (original purpose of a civilian police force). I can understand taking blood as the evidence collecting component of an investigation but it shouldn't be held in a database for some future unknown reason. Government folks will ALWAYS twist and bend rules to use laws, intended for one purpose, on an wholly different purpose.

Quote:
If “all qualifying
criminal charges are determined to be unsupported by
probable cause . . . the DNA sample shall be immediately
destroyed.” §2–504(d)(2)(i). DNA samples are also de­
stroyed if “a criminal action begun against the individual
. . . does not result in a conviction,” “the conviction is
finally reversed or vacated and
no new trial is permitted,”
or “the individual is granted an unconditional pardon.”
§2–511(a)(1).

As long as their is a way to ensure the data is actually deleted and not "forgotten" only to be later "remembered" and used.

Basically, do not trust the police or anyone / thing connected to them.
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 Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 16:31:11
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Fenrir.Candlejack said: »
Enuyasha said: »
I would mostly like to think this will be used for identification purposes to make absolutely sure they have the right person. Pretty sure DNA is the only way to know whether we got Osama or his gardener who for some reason has the same features and the same fingerprints. As for "WOMG they could use this for other nefarious schemes and tread on muh rights!" They could,but when that happens this is when you as a citizen exercise your right of protest/vote/whatever else and actively make sure your government doesnt go down that route.
You make perfect sense with your argument. However, it seems FFXIAH's forums are overflowing with the tinfoil hat brigade today. The same people who think it's just a ploy by those in power to take away even more of their rights. However, they forget something important. That is, as soon as you are arrested on probable cause for committing a crime, your rights with exception to your right to use the fifth amendment to not self-incriminate essentially go bye-bye. If, during a trial by jury, you have been found to be innocent, your rights are restored. By willfully complying with officers of the law you actually increase your chances of being found innocent of whatever the crime is, instead of just being an asshat and saying to them "No, I don't wanna help you solve whatever crime it is you think I did", which clearly does make you look guilty as all hell.
I think whoever told you this severely misled you...

Just because I don't want to do their job for them doesn't mean I'm guilty... whatever it may make me look like in their eyes it clearly doesn't qualify as proof...
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 Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-06-04 16:33:00
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
from the statistics pulled out of my rear file...

1 in 4 americans is arrested at some point in their lives so there is a good chance you are going to decide to become a criminal at some point whether you like it or not xueye... I, of course, recommend you beat the rush and embrace those criminal urges now!

@flav I only want the dna from those smart enough to not get caught doing crimes! So I will stick with my rag soaked with chloroform method..

<insert diabolical laugh here>

I also heard that 1 out of 3 crimes aren't planned, and happen on impulse
 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 16:37:43
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Fenrir.Candlejack said: »
Enuyasha said: »
I would mostly like to think this will be used for identification purposes to make absolutely sure they have the right person.

Pretty sure DNA is the only way to know whether we got Osama or his gardener who for some reason has the same features and the same fingerprints.

As for "WOMG they could use this for other nefarious schemes and tread on muh rights!" They could,but when that happens this is when you as a citizen exercise your right of protest/vote/whatever else and actively make sure your government doesnt go down that route.
You make perfect sense with your argument. However, it seems FFXIAH's forums are overflowing with the tinfoil hat brigade today. The same people who think it's just a ploy by those in power to take away even more of their rights.
However, they forget something important. That is, as soon as you are arrested on probable cause for committing a crime, your rights with exception to your right to use the fifth amendment to not self-incriminate essentially go bye-bye. If, during a trial by jury, you have been found to be innocent, your rights are restored. By willfully complying with officers of the law you actually increase your chances of being found innocent of whatever the crime is, instead of just being an asshat and saying to them "No, I don't wanna help you solve whatever crime it is you think I did", which clearly does make you look guilty as all hell.
Please never be on a jury. Like, ever.
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-06-04 16:38:03
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Because that's not how police investigations work. Real life isn't like CSI episodes where ~you~ (the view) have a strong suspicion or flat out know who the bad guy is and only have to wait for the charismatic good-looking heroes to stumble upon it. Instead police know about a crime only after someone reports it to them. They then take their time and evidence is haphazardly collected. Prior to evidence being analyzed the investigating officers will already have a belief on who did it and will then employ confirmation bias on the evidence. They will only use evidence supporting their theory on who did what while blatantly ignoring any evidence to the contrary, often to the point of suppressing it or removing it from existence.

DNA is rarely "smoking gun" evidence. The movies have you think it's always 100% "DNA proved X / Y /Z", that's total horsesh!t. What DNA can do is merely demonstrate a person was at a particular location but not always the time they were there nor what they did while they were there. You hear about the whole "skin under the fingernails / blood on the shirt" type stuff but that's in the minority, most DNA "evidence" is just hair follicles or other circumstantial evidence.

IE: "We found your hair follicle in a sock the victim was wearing"!

Well how did it get on that sock, which is inside a shoe? Where has the shoe been? How long was the hair in that shoe? Could that piece of hair of fallen into that shoe some months in the past and just been inside it until that day? Lots of ways of demonstrating that hair isn't relevant but the Police and Prosecution will not ever bring that up in court.

The US legal system is an adversarial system, two teams (Prosecution & Defense) line up and fight over the evidence and details of the case in front of non-biased judges (jurors) while a neutral entity maintains the rules (judge). It's like a big fencing / wrestling match with the Police being on the side of the Prosecutors. Being on that side they will never help the enemy of the Prosecutors, the Defense.
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 Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-06-04 16:39:18
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »
Enuyasha said: »
I would mostly like to think this will be used for identification purposes to make absolutely sure they have the right person.

Pretty sure DNA is the only way to know whether we got Osama or his gardener who for some reason has the same features and the same fingerprints.

As for "WOMG they could use this for other nefarious schemes and tread on muh rights!" They could,but when that happens this is when you as a citizen exercise your right of protest/vote/whatever else and actively make sure your government doesnt go down that route.
You make perfect sense with your argument. However, it seems FFXIAH's forums are overflowing with the tinfoil hat brigade today. The same people who think it's just a ploy by those in power to take away even more of their rights.
However, they forget something important. That is, as soon as you are arrested on probable cause for committing a crime, your rights with exception to your right to use the fifth amendment to not self-incriminate essentially go bye-bye. If, during a trial by jury, you have been found to be innocent, your rights are restored. By willfully complying with officers of the law you actually increase your chances of being found innocent of whatever the crime is, instead of just being an asshat and saying to them "No, I don't wanna help you solve whatever crime it is you think I did", which clearly does make you look guilty as all hell.
Please never be on a jury. Like, ever.

Ive been on 1, and its boring as hell....
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-06-04 16:44:39
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Ok going to pop lots of bubbles here. EVERY US citizen here is a criminal.

The video I posted above will demonstrate that. There are so many laws, statutes, administrative policy's, regulations and rules that it's impossible to go throughout your life without breaking one of them.

The only difference is the degree to which the prosecution and their police thugs desire to enforce them. If they want they can arrest you for damn near anything, the only thing stopping a police state from existing is all those rights you have to a defense. Don't ever think about lightly throwing away any of them. You think it's all fine and dandy until your on the business end of a police investigation, even if you've done nothing wrong (that you know of).

Just look at recent posts in this forum, children being handcuffed or suspended for the smallest of things. All sorts of overreaction from government appointees and bureaucrats.
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 Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-06-04 16:46:07
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Im pretty sure everyone is guilty of driving over the speed limit at least once >_>.
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 Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-06-04 16:46:29
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I also threw a Mcdonalds cup out the window once..
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By Drjones 2013-06-04 16:55:07
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I am not ok with this.

Just because Joe Schmoe cop arrests me doesn't mean it's ok for him to stick needles in me to get my blood. After I've been convicted and sentenced, sure I guess since at that point I'm *** anyway, but not before a fair trial has completed do you get to do that.
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 16:58:13
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Saevel, I don't always agree with you but I do today, and you stated it so eloquently.

"ignorance of the law excuses no one (Ignorantia juris non excusat)" but it is so very difficult (impossible) to know every law in place.

The last time I looked at the Florida Statues it was 13 large volumes and this was in 2000~. This did not include county and city laws. Then there are the laws that are not "enforced" but are still enforceable that are on the books (jim crow, sodomy, etc). In Dade County, FL there is/was a law that more than 3 women living together, who are not related, the house is considered a brothel (at least from 2000-2004). This is why FIU has/had no sorority houses.

Laws, serious business.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 16:59:21
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The decision has nothing to do with blood evidence.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 17:05:26
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Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »
I also threw a Mcdonalds cup out the window once..
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-06-04 17:06:37
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Something about DNA I forgot to mention earlier. It's never 100% accurate. DNA has to be collected from an enclosed protected source in order to be good, meaning only DNA pulled directly from you. At crime scenes they can only pull partial DNA, blood splatters, skin cells and hair follicles have all been exposed to the elements and have decomposed to some extent. Hair follicles are probably the cleanest as their designed to resist atmospheric elements, but even they degrade.

What Police do is run the DNA against their database looking for probable matches. What they say is "we have DNA evidence that indicates person X was at location Y". Notice the word indicates is used, it's an unquantifiable word like "supposed, probably, reasonably, potentially" and lots more. They can use that word and not perjure themselves. The match may only be 80% (meaning it's 80% chance it's from the same person) but the prosecution will never say that, and the Police thought it was you before evidence collection took place.

So just remember, next time anyone hears the word "DNA match" without a percentage attached, chances are someone is bullsh!ting you. After all a 20% chance of being wrong is within the realm of a reasonable doubt.
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 Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-06-04 17:12:42
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Drjones said: »
I am not ok with this.

Just because Joe Schmoe cop arrests me doesn't mean it's ok for him to stick needles in me to get my blood. After I've been convicted and sentenced, sure I guess since at that point I'm *** anyway, but not before a fair trial has completed do you get to do that.

Im actually a lil confused on both sides of the argument.

What is the purpose of getting a dna sample? what are the police going to find out in your dna that is not on record?

why would people be so hesitant to give a dna sample?

I guess there are some people that think the police might use your dna sample to plant on another crime or something. Thats really the only reason why I think some people might be hesitant.
 Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 17:15:41
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I don't know if anyone has touched upon this yet, but there is an important caveat to the ruling:

It was a narrow ruling. The only thing upheld was the Delaware law. If you are arrested, police are allowed to take your DNA and run it against a database of crime scenes and convicted felons. If you are subsequently never convicted then the DNA taken at your arrest is destroyed. If you are convicted it goes into a database, which is what would have happened anyway.

The issue of a permanent arrest database was never touched. That leaves the door open to future lawsuits against that law in other states.
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 17:20:21
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Something about DNA I forgot to mention earlier. It's never 100% accurate. DNA has to be collected from an enclosed protected source in order to be good, meaning only DNA pulled directly from you. At crime scenes they can only pull partial DNA, blood splatters, skin cells and hair follicles have all been exposed to the elements and have decomposed to some extent. Hair follicles are probably the cleanest as their designed to resist atmospheric elements, but even they degrade.

What Police do is run the DNA against their database looking for probable matches. What they say is "we have DNA evidence that indicates person X was at location Y". Notice the word indicates is used, it's an unquantifiable word like "supposed, probably, reasonably, potentially" and lots more. They can use that word and not perjure themselves. The match may only be 80% (meaning it's 80% chance it's from the same person) but the prosecution will never say that, and the Police thought it was you before evidence collection took place.

So just remember, next time anyone hears the word "DNA match" without a percentage attached, chances are someone is bullsh!ting you. After all a 20% chance of being wrong is within the realm of a reasonable doubt.

That's why a case would never be brought to trial soley based on a low percentage DNA match. Prosecutors would gather further evidence such as your proximity to the crime. If you could prove you were in Europe at the time of a crime in Delaware, then they wouldn't bother even if the match was 99.99%. But if you lived next door to the crime scene that might further bolster their case.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 17:25:57
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Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »
Drjones said: »
I am not ok with this.

Just because Joe Schmoe cop arrests me doesn't mean it's ok for him to stick needles in me to get my blood. After I've been convicted and sentenced, sure I guess since at that point I'm *** anyway, but not before a fair trial has completed do you get to do that.

Im actually a lil confused on both sides of the argument.

What is the purpose of getting a dna sample? what are the police going to find out in your dna that is not on record?

why would people be so hesitant to give a dna sample?

I guess there are some people that think the police might use your dna sample to plant on another crime or something. Thats really the only reason why I think some people might be hesitant.

The processing of your DNA sample is not infallible. As Saevel stated it is not 100% accurate, it also depends on the type of test that is used, and then it depends on how good your technician is. New York has had over 800 cases where a technician did not follow protocol and a different issue with over 50 cases. Human error exists. The quantified percentage varies on the district you are in and if studies on accuracy/protocol following has been allowed to be conducted. This does not even venture into false positives and only using DNA as the major evidence for the trial or pressure to plead guilty on lesser charges.

The pretext to get DNA without a warrant is to use it for identity purposes. However, your (whoever's) sample is run through a crime database to compare your DNA with DNA collected at another crime scene. This is then used to charge you with other crimes.
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 Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 17:26:57
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
This is then used to charge you with other crimes.
A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
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By Drjones 2013-06-04 17:31:37
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Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »
Drjones said: »
I am not ok with this.

Just because Joe Schmoe cop arrests me doesn't mean it's ok for him to stick needles in me to get my blood. After I've been convicted and sentenced, sure I guess since at that point I'm *** anyway, but not before a fair trial has completed do you get to do that.

Im actually a lil confused on both sides of the argument.

What is the purpose of getting a dna sample? what are the police going to find out in your dna that is not on record?

why would people be so hesitant to give a dna sample?

I guess there are some people that think the police might use your dna sample to plant on another crime or something. Thats really the only reason why I think some people might be hesitant.
For me it's two parts.
1. Terrible fear of needles and being forced to offer a blood sample. Admittedly an assumption on my part.

2. It sets a very bad precedent for what the government is allowed to do and we really need to cut back on those. The past decade or so has been pretty awful in that regard.
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 17:33:58
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Drjones said: »
For me it's two parts.
1. Terrible fear of needles and being forced to offer a blood sample. Admittedly an assumption on my part.

2. It sets a very bad precedent for what the government is allowed to do and we really need to cut back on those. The past decade or so has been pretty awful in that regard.
1. It's a cheek swab

2. Assuming the DNA is restricted to only comparing against a database, then the upheld law is actually less invasive than the long standing fingerprinting practices.
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 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 17:38:12
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Cerberus.Eugene said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
This is then used to charge you with other crimes.
A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.

I didn't say it did was. Do you think only guilty people are convicted?
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