Supreme Court OKs Taking DNA From Arrestees

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Supreme Court OKs Taking DNA From Arrestees
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 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 07:12:22
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From Wired:
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Deciding its biggest genetic privacy case of the term, a fractured Supreme Court said today that the states may take DNA samples from anybody arrested for serious crimes.

Privacy groups and law enforcement officials were closely watching the case because at least 27 states and the federal government have regulations requiring suspects to give a DNA sample upon some type of arrest, regardless of conviction. In all the states with such laws, the DNA records are cataloged in state and federal crime-fighting databases.

In a 5-4 decision, (.pdf) the justices reversed a 2012 ruling from Maryland’s top court, which had said that it was a breach of the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure to take, without warrants, DNA samples from suspects who have been arrested for crimes ranging from attempted burglary to murder. In the end, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that swabbing the inside of a suspect’s cheek to acquire a DNA sample was “an advanced technique superior” to fingerprinting, mugshots and even tattoo matching.

Quote:
A DNA profile is useful to the police because it gives them a form of identification to search the records already in their valid possession. In this respect the use of DNA for identification is no different than matching an arrestee’s face to a wanted poster of a previously unidenti­fied suspect; or matching tattoos to known gang symbols to reveal a criminal affiliation; or matching the arrestee’s fingerprints to those recovered from a crime scene. DNA is another metric of identifica­tion used to connect the arrestee with his or her public persona, as reflected in records of his or her actions that are available to the police.

Kennedy added that, not “to insist on fingerprints as the norm would make little sense to either the forensic expert or the layperson.” The majority also said that DNA collection “may have the salutary effect of freeing a person wrongfully imprisoned for the same offense.”

Justice Antonin Scalia, writing in dissent, said taking the DNA without a warrant was a clear Fourth Amendment violation. He suggested that the United States’ founding fathers would not be so willing “to open their mouths for royal inspection.”

DNA testing in the United States was first used to convict a suspected Florida rapist in 1987, and has been a routine tool to solve old or so-called cold cases. It has also exonerated convicts, even those on death row.

At issue before the justices was a Maryland Court of Appeals ruling that arrestees have a “weighty and reasonable expectation of privacy against warrantless, suspicionless searches” and that expectation was not outweighed by the state’s “purported interest in assuring proper identification” of a suspect.

The case involved Alonzo King, who was arrested in 2009 on assault charges. A DNA sample he provided linked him to an unsolved 2003 rape case, and he was later convicted of the sex crime. But the Maryland Court of Appeals reversed, saying his Fourth Amendment rights were breached.

Maryland prosecutors had argued that mouth swabs were no more intrusive than fingerprinting. Maryland’s high court said that it “could not turn a blind eye” to what it called a “vast genetic treasure map” that exists in the DNA samples retained by the state.

The Maryland court was noting that DNA sampling is much different from compulsory fingerprinting. A fingerprint, for example, reveals nothing more than a person’s identity. But much more can be learned from a DNA sample, which codes a person’s family ties, some health risks and, according to some, can predict a propensity for violence.

In dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote that the cheek swabbing was an unconstitutional, warrantless search of a suspect because it goes beyond identifying the suspect and moves into crime-solving territory.

“If identifying someone means finding out what unsolved crimes he has committed, then identification is indistinguishable from the ordinary law enforcement aims that have never been thought to justify a suspicionless search. Searching every lawfully stopped car, for example, might turn up information about unsolved crimes the driver had committed, but no one would say that such a search was aimed at ‘identifying’ him, and no court would hold such a search lawful,” Scalia wrote.

Scalia also mocked the majority’s rationale because the suspect’s DNA in the case was not processed for about four months after his arrest.

Quote:
Today’s judgment will, to be sure, have the beneficial effect of solving more crimes; then again, so would the taking of DNA samples from anyone who flies on an airplane (surely the Transportation Security Administration needs to know the ‘identity’ of the flying public), applies for a driver’s license, or attends a public school. Perhaps the construction of such a genetic panopticon is wise. But I doubt that the proud men who wrote the charter of our liberties would have been so eager to open their mouths for royal inspection.

The issue before the justices did not contest the long-held practice of taking DNA samples from convicts. The courts have already upheld DNA sampling of convicted felons, based on the theory that those who are convicted of crimes have fewer privacy rights.

Today’s outcome was of no surprise, however. Chief Justice John Roberts in July stayed the Maryland decision. In the process, he said there was a “fair prospect”(.pdf) the Supreme Court would reverse the decision.

I think serious crimes are defined by the FBI as part I crimes, but I'm not completely sure.

I agree with Justice Scalia in this decision even though I've disagreed with many of his past decisions regarding defendants and DNA, copyright,, and others.
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 Alexander.Carrelo
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By Alexander.Carrelo 2013-06-04 08:01:23
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If I was arrested for something I didn't do, I don't think I'd mind surrendering a DNA sample that might expedite my release. If that same sample led to my subsequent re-arrest for something I did do, well... maybe I shouldn't have committed a serious crime.

This is valid too, though. There are some potential issues with consistency. If it is, however, agreed that those who have already been convicted of a felony deserve fewer privacy rights, is it then logical to extend this reasoning to include those whose close involvement in a major crime has led to their arrest? The context of a police investigation is pretty different from the other contexts mentioned (TSA, DMV, public schools). So yeah, a valid question.

Aside from that, I guess some people might just be uncomfortable in general with the idea of their DNA falling into the hands of another person. Don't see too many people running around picking up their lost hairs though--hell, some of them even serve 'em to me in my lunch. D: Keep your DNA outta my sandwich !
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 09:04:27
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If you wanted to voluntarily give your DNA to the arresting officer, that is one thing. If you are forced to give DNA based on an arrest (getting rid of the whole presumed innocent until found guilty thing) then that is entirely different.

False or mistaken arrests happen.
False postive's
occur with DNA testing.
Human
error when dealing with DNA testing occurs.

Edit: two articles are listed under human error. I just noticed that you can't see that unless you happen to click both words at different times :)
 Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-06-04 09:23:57
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I'll take "Where the *** is my right to privacy and innocence until proven guilty" for 400, Trebek.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2013-06-04 09:40:24
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Compare it to fingerprints and mug shots.

You get arrested they fingerprint you and take a mug shot. The mug shot becomes a public record. A new internet industry has arisen publishing mug shots and offering to take them down for payment. And the fingerprint ink is hard to get off your fingers.

I will forgive most here for not knowing that the 4th amendment was lost in the 1960s and has been missing in action ever since.

And for the daily double, what's the first amendment we lost and under which president?
By volkom 2013-06-04 09:55:21
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just another reason to not do crime
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 09:56:18
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I'm not a big fan of fingerprinting either.
http://www.psmag.com/legal-affairs/why-fingerprints-arent-proof-47079/

As a third country national holding a visa in Denmark I've recently had to provide my fingerprints to the Danish state. It made my husband and I pause, and consider moving to another country (as only third country nationals are required).

I don't understand why non-Americans still choose to visit the US when they have to provide fingerprints to enter the country.
 Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-06-04 09:56:45
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volkom said: »
just another reason to not do crime

Can still be wrongly arrested. If it was DNA sampling for those convicted, I'd be maybe okay.

The whole regardless of conviction thing is pure, 100%, unadultured horse ***.
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By volkom 2013-06-04 09:58:00
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Be wrongly convicted but if you actually are innocent then should be fine
 Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-06-04 10:00:44
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volkom said: »
Be wrongly convicted but if you actually are innocent then should be fine

My right to privacy is still breached.

It's still saying "well, we're keeping your DNA on record, because you could still be a criminal in the future". I don't see why this is okay.
 Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 10:02:37
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
I'm not a big fan of fingerprinting either. http://www.psmag.com/legal-affairs/why-fingerprints-arent-proof-47079/ As a third country national holding a visa in Denmark I've recently had to provide my fingerprints to the Danish state. It made my husband and I pause, and consider moving to another country (as only third country nationals are required). I don't understand why non-Americans still choose to visit the US when they have to provide fingerprints to enter the country.
If it makes ya feel any better even Citizens have to in quite a few situations... I had a job that part of the hire process was to take a drug test and get fingerprinted lol...
 Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-06-04 10:06:26
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Garuda.Chanti said: »
And for the daily double, what's the first amendment we lost and under which president?

Gonna guess habeas corpus under Lincoln.
 Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 10:06:59
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Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
volkom said: »
Be wrongly convicted but if you actually are innocent then should be fine
My right to privacy is still breached. It's still saying "well, we're keeping your DNA on record, because you could still be a criminal in the future". I don't see why this is okay.
Just ammend it to say that if found innocent or that the dna evidence exonerates you right off that your sample will be destroyed and not become a part of the database... It's funny because if you refuse they just say you look guilty lol but who knows what they will do with that information 5, 10, 20 years down the line... Can they gaurantee protection and that no one else will be able to get their hands on that information? When it comes to your DNA privacy really wouldn't be my main concern...
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 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 10:08:37
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Siren.Flavin said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
I'm not a big fan of fingerprinting either. http://www.psmag.com/legal-affairs/why-fingerprints-arent-proof-47079/ As a third country national holding a visa in Denmark I've recently had to provide my fingerprints to the Danish state. It made my husband and I pause, and consider moving to another country (as only third country nationals are required). I don't understand why non-Americans still choose to visit the US when they have to provide fingerprints to enter the country.
If it makes ya feel any better even Citizens have to in quite a few situations... I had a job that part of the hire process was to take a drug test and get fingerprinted lol...

Private businesses are very different from the government. For one thing you can choose not to work there.
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 Phoenix.Amandarius
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2013-06-04 10:11:23
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Gattaca is our unavoidable future. May take another century but we will gradually get there. Just a few minds have to be changed with every case that is brought up.

"Weeeeelllllll I guess it's OK in that case, if they're just using it to protect people."
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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2013-06-04 10:12:07
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
Siren.Flavin said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
I'm not a big fan of fingerprinting either. http://www.psmag.com/legal-affairs/why-fingerprints-arent-proof-47079/ As a third country national holding a visa in Denmark I've recently had to provide my fingerprints to the Danish state. It made my husband and I pause, and consider moving to another country (as only third country nationals are required). I don't understand why non-Americans still choose to visit the US when they have to provide fingerprints to enter the country.
If it makes ya feel any better even Citizens have to in quite a few situations... I had a job that part of the hire process was to take a drug test and get fingerprinted lol...

Private businesses are very different from the government. For one thing you can choose not to work there.

Denmark is holding you hostage and forcing you to live there?
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 Siren.Zekyr
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By Siren.Zekyr 2013-06-04 10:20:12
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Been doing this in the UK for years, DNA samples taken for even minor criminal offenses - And they're allowed to store them indefinitely.

Something that needs addressing as its unnecessary
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 Shiva.Nikolce
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2013-06-04 10:22:02
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idk you look fairly suspicious to me!
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 Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 10:24:48
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Where will Nik get the dna samples to build his clone army if the govt doesn't keep gathering them for him! It will be back to the days of clunking people over the head dragging them to a dark corner and extracting it himself! He has other more evil things to attend to.
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 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 10:28:51
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
Siren.Flavin said: »
Bahamut.Kara said: »
I'm not a big fan of fingerprinting either. http://www.psmag.com/legal-affairs/why-fingerprints-arent-proof-47079/ As a third country national holding a visa in Denmark I've recently had to provide my fingerprints to the Danish state. It made my husband and I pause, and consider moving to another country (as only third country nationals are required). I don't understand why non-Americans still choose to visit the US when they have to provide fingerprints to enter the country.
If it makes ya feel any better even Citizens have to in quite a few situations... I had a job that part of the hire process was to take a drug test and get fingerprinted lol...

Private businesses are very different from the government. For one thing you can choose not to work there.

Denmark is holding you hostage and forcing you to live there?

No. I didn't say that.

I stated my example on how I felt when asked to have biometrics tied to my visa and about my decision. Which is why I also stated that my husband and I discussed the option of relocating to another country.

Flavin made a statement that citizens also have to get fingerprinted and drug tested when working for a company.

However, as a citizen he does not have to have his fingerprints on file for the country he is a citizen of (and residing in). He is choosing to have his fingerprints on file for a private company. If the US required him to have his fingerprints on file to remain within it's boarders would he consider it to be the same? That is all I was trying to point out.
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 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2013-06-04 10:31:27
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Siren.Flavin said: »
Where will Nik get the dna samples to build his clone army if the govt doesn't keep gathering them for him! It will be back to the days of clunking people over the head dragging them to a dark corner and extracting it himself! He has other more evil things to attend to.

Like watching the world burn from his secret lair from Olympus Mons.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-06-04 10:32:47
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Denmark is holding you hostage and forcing you to live there?

There's a huge conceptual difference between using the force of law to achieve a result, and someone willingly entering into an agreement that achieves the same result.

@Flav, I'd be far more okay if they destroyed it on innocence. Then my qualm would be "our government is totally not gonna destroy it" :)
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 Phoenix.Gaiarorshack
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By Phoenix.Gaiarorshack 2013-06-04 10:33:01
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im all in for it

if it was me in charge dna sampels would be taken of every new born for a non-public register.
once you turn 18 (or whatever the legal age is) you need to go in and get you finger prints taken as well.

nothing of these information tell anything about my as a person, its no invading any privacy. but it will sure help to solving murder/rape cases.
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 10:35:39
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But each, as you say, contain a choice. As you are not a natural citizen there you have no gauranteed rights and you have a choice as to if you would like to live there or not just as I'd have a choice not to work for a certain company... With the job placement your fingerprints end up in the system permanantly...
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 10:41:56
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Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Denmark is holding you hostage and forcing you to live there?
There's a huge conceptual difference between using the force of law to achieve a result, and someone willingly entering into an agreement that achieves the same result. @Flav, I'd be far more okay if they destroyed it on innocence. Then my qualm would be "our government is totally not gonna destroy it" :)
I don't get how it's any different... I probably have more of a need for a job than they do to move to a different country... we both have the choice on whether to do either one...

True enough but if they don't get rid of it and you find out that they still do have it then it's grounds for a lawsuit which would probably turn class action really quick as I'm guessing it wouldn't only be one person that they kept... but it is indeed a slippery slope...
 Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-06-04 10:42:04
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Phoenix.Gaiarorshack said: »
im all in for it

if it was me in charge dna sampels would be taken of every new born for a non-public register.
once you turn 18 (or whatever the legal age is) you need to go in and get you finger prints taken as well.

nothing of these information tell anything about my as a person, its no invading any privacy. but it will sure help to solving murder/rape cases.

So what I'm hearing is that in the name of safety, you want everyone to also have a GPS microchip and be constantly tracked by helicopter drones.

Giving up your genetic marker, your utterly unique ID, and giving a government free reign to use that information to check you out for crimes is consenting to constant search.

I don't get why people are okay with being treated as criminals without committing crimes. Literally every human is a potential criminal; why should we treat ourselves as though we're also not potentially law abiding citizens?

It just seems so insulting, so utterly "I'm not willing to believe in you".

@Flav I think it's a gray area because yes, they're not citizens true, but giving fewer rights to outsiders seems like institutionalized ethnocentricism.
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 Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 10:42:57
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Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Siren.Flavin said: »
Where will Nik get the dna samples to build his clone army if the govt doesn't keep gathering them for him! It will be back to the days of clunking people over the head dragging them to a dark corner and extracting it himself! He has other more evil things to attend to.
Like watching the world burn from his secret lair from Olympus Mons.
Olympus mons? Ha! His secret base is in that hole in New Jersey where they that nuclear waste leak and told no one about it... he cleaned it up a bit but hey what evil genius doesn't like a little toxic waste laying around?
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-06-04 10:43:23
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Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »
volkom said: »
Be wrongly convicted but if you actually are innocent then should be fine

My right to privacy is still breached.

It's still saying "well, we're keeping your DNA on record, because you could still be a criminal in the future". I don't see why this is okay.

How is having your DNA on file that heinous a crime anyways? Or are you paranoid somebody will like falsely reconstruct it in a blood sample and frame you for a crime or something?
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By volkom 2013-06-04 10:43:36
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it may give him super powers to you know...to go with his super villain status
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 10:46:10
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Phoenix.Gaiarorshack said: »
im all in for it if it was me in charge dna sampels would be taken of every new born for a non-public register. once you turn 18 (or whatever the legal age is) you need to go in and get you finger prints taken as well. nothing of these information tell anything about my as a person, its no invading any privacy. but it will sure help to solving murder/rape cases.
DNA can actually tell you a lot about a person and who knows how much more in the coming years... keeping a database for every person is not only unnecassary but one step closer to that slippery slope... not only that but who would be responsible for collecting this information? The hospitals? then they're responsible for passing it on through how many different chanels? Can they keep the information private? How would it be accessed? Used? Guaranteed that it would still be accurate? so many questions...
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