IiPunch - Monk Guide

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By Afania 2019-05-08 20:39:16
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
No, but you don't understand. The spreadsheet says it will be a sixteen second longer fight to include an inferior DPS. And the spreadsheets say that using WS at 1250 vs 1251 TP will result in forty five less DPS overall. The spreadsheet assumes I have perfect reflexes, buffs, never gets dispelled, won't lags vs the next guy, and that's the optimal way to play. THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY! Picking an inferior DD for the sake of "fun" has no standing here in this video game on this forum. If you want fun, go work a 9-5 job. We're in the business of optimization and seconds matter.

FIFY.

People talk/post about optimazion or theorycraft dps isnt the same as playing the game itself like a 9-5 job.

I read/write about opmization a *** ton on forum but in game I really rarely reject people when they say they want to play an inferior DD job, unless there are multiple people in pt wants to DD, in that case everyone take turns. Ive never shout for rema DD myself too, usually just invite whatever DD they offer.

That doesnt mean I dont enjoy having a discussion about optimization on forums. I find FFXI mechanics interesting to read, and keep me engaged. Theres nothing wrong to talk about optimization on forums.

In game? Of course fun >>>>>> all.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-08 20:53:26
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Damn, a hit dog will holla huh
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-05-08 23:13:22
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Jeez, lot of typical MNK defensiveness here...

I'm not saying you can't fight stuff with the job, just that most people wouldn't really be bringing a MNK to something like a true mega-buffed zerg fight where it will get smoked by heavy DDs that are more aligned toward that role. Sorry guys, in that kind of fight MNK just isn't going to come close to competing with MS Reso spam from a WAR, Fudo or Torcleaver from empy SAM DRK, etc. The whole "but just have fun, it's a game" argument (it's my $12.99 guys, and I'm gonna WAR/WHM if I want to!) goes out the window when you're wasting everyone's time on a hard Aeonic mob or something, and in those cases it's totally worth composing a party that's more designed for that situation to avoid wasting everyone's time with a loss on a difficult fight.

Sechs raises a good point that Impetus/H2H acc changes really did improve MNK's zerg viability, so there's that. And that does probably change what I said about MNK lagging behind the other "light DD" types for zerg fights, so I really appreciate him keeping me current... like I said, I've been a bit out of date on my MNK thinking (and I haven't played much MNK since the H2H changes), so that's why I'm asking.

If you are NOT doing that kind of fight (where nobody is stopping to SC and everyone wants to WS ASAP):
It feels to me like people talking about using HF/RF/TK are the ones who are more focused on dysfunctional "BUT THE SPREADSHEET SAYS" thinking.

Are HF/RF really strong enough to outweigh the substantial damage from all the extra light SCs you can hit with Victory Smite, a pretty strong WS that chains with tons of other commonly used WS? My hunch is that HF/RF aren't really going to result in better overall party DPS in most practical situations due to losing a lot of SC damage - even if you're just getting semi-regular random light SCs and not necessarily focusing on a strict SC rotation. But if people have done some comparisons besides just relying on SPREADSHEET TOLD ME THIS WS GIVES THE HIGHEST AVG WS DAMAGE, I'd love to see someone point me to that. I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to make a rough model something like: if I get a light SC on... 3/10? 5/10? 7/10? of my VS uses, what does the comparison look like (to get a sense of how consistent the SCs have to be to use the "weaker" but more SC-friendly WS).

TK is a little harder for me to get a sense for, since it clearly gets a really nice boost during Footwork and feels more like it could really be worth it. But I wouldn't be that shocked if even the semi-consistent random light SCs from sticking with Smite beat that too.

What kinds of practical situations are you running into on MNK where you're really finding it more feasible to spam "highest damage" WS (TK/HF/RF when situation calls for it: no impetus, footwork up, etc.), and it wouldn't be viable to get a decent number of Smite light SCs to keep that approach competitive/better? Especially interested in people using something other than Godhands, which devalues the non-VS options even more.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-05-08 23:25:42
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You need a clearly defined scenario.

If - other dd will follow, which results in the highest PARTY dps;

1) Spam - smite and pray for lights (how many lights will it take to beat option 2)
2) Spam - smite/impetus, TK/FW, HF/dispelled(may still make skillchains)
3) multistep purposely (this can be a very effective, rotating 3 step double light for example)

In a proper zerg... lights are going to be few and far between. There are no 3 second gaps ideally. The worse the other people are the more likely you'll close/open.

"It depends" The number of melees is a very important variable.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-05-08 23:50:02
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
In a proper zerg... lights are going to be few and far between. There are no 3 second gaps ideally. The worse the other people are the more likely you'll close/open.

Totally. Which is why I was trying to bring up zergs as beside the point, and maybe I pissed people off by saying (what I believe to be obvious and true) that in a proper zerg, you're way more likely to be using proper zerg jobs that don't usually include MNK. For me personally, if I'm taking that kind of fight seriously I'm sure as hell bringing my SAM or WAR over my MNK.

If you're doing uncoordinated fights where everyone is just spamming WS, I don't really think of that as a proper zerg. And in those cases... who really cares about whether you use "optimal" WS by switching to TK or HF or whatever. Spamming VS seems just fine here too for this sort of "whatever, stuff dies no matter what". Might fluctuate to be a little worse or a little better based on how many lucky light SCs you get, but nobody's really sweating this.

Quote:
"It depends" The number of melees is a very important variable.

Yeah, fair enough.

This is also relevant in that a lot of people in this forum have very forcefully pushed the point that MNK is uniquely good in parties with a low number of melees. Largely for TP feed reasons, but if that's the way you're using a MNK it should be quite easy to be a bit more coordinated and hit more SCs than you would in a chaotic alliance with 8 melees firing off WS with no thought of what the other melees are doing.
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By Lakshmi.Watusa 2019-05-09 00:48:47
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What are the ideal Ambu cape augments for TP, Victory Smite and Dragon Kick(Dragon Kick is still a thing with Footwork up right?) sets?
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-05-09 03:18:31
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Think you're talking about Tornado Kick, not Dragon. And yeah it sorta still worth it during Footwork, depends on your setup but in general it is.

Ideal ambu capes for TP were under discussion a few pages ago and depending on your weapon there's a looooot of shades to be discussed.
Basically it's the same DEX+30, Acc/Att+30 for all of them, but changing DA+10 vs Crit+10 vs STP+10.
If you ask me, they're all pretty close to each other.
I think DA+10 is the most "generic" one that sorta works for everything.
Crit and STP are more specific to your gear/situation, but with some setups clearly work better than DA.

WS wise for stuff like Tornado Kick or Howling Fist you probably want to put STR+30 and WSD+10.
For Victory Smite I personally have WSD+10 myself, following some tests I performed and a post from Byrth long time ago. Crit+10 might be better I dunno, but especially with Impetus up I think you have more to gain from WSD+10, even if it applies to the first hit only (which is the strongest hit of the WS anyway)
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By SimonSes 2019-05-09 03:26:07
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@Capuchin

1. MNK can be very good in 1-3min non 1hr zergs. Theoretical DPS with Imeptus and Footwork up with R15 Veret is very high. The problem is randomness. You can get 50 stacks of Impetus without miss and ride that for entire zerg, or you can get few misses in worst moments. Other zerg jobs dont have that problem. Additionally WAR pairs amazing with SAM, DRK and RUN in 1min zergs, because of Warcry. Especially DRK and RUN damage skyrockets with Warcry. That being said, I never modeled TK spam with Godhands, Savagery, Footwork and Impetus. Spreadsheet shows 10500 DPS for that setup, which is a very respectful DPS for non 1hr zerg.

2. You shouldn't spam RF or TK. Holding WS increase DPS for both of them with most h2h weapons (For Godhands it doesn't increase DPS, but also not really drops it). So you either do Smite at low TP or RF/TK at high TP and high TP RF/TK will probably almost double the damage of Smite without Impetus.
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By fonewear 2019-05-09 08:01:56
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The over analysis of monk is getting a bit ridiculous this a job where you punch stuff in the face...remember it's a game it is supposed to be fun.

If I wanted to do advanced math theory I'll take a college class.

I kinda new from the start monk is not top tier that is why I like to play it.

I've seen 10,000 DRK SAM etc...but rarely on Asura do I come across a good monk.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-09 08:29:21
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fonewear said: »
I've seen 10,000 DRK SAM etc...but rarely on Asura do I come across a good monk.

Maybe because most MNK players think it's a fun job to punch stuff and don't analyze their game and don't improve :D

fonewear said: »
remember it's a game it is supposed to be fun.

Definition of fun is very different for different people. Some will have fun from just punching stuff with Monk and other will have fun from optimizing Monk to make those punches as effective as possible :P

It's super ok to be on either side. It's not ok to be on one side and tell people on the other side, that they shouldn't do what they like and what give them fun in this game.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-09 08:29:40
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SimonSes said: »
That being said, I never modeled TK spam with Godhands, Savagery, Footwork and Impetus

I wouldn't be mad if Footwork got reworked to provide a TP bonus effect during Kicking WS. Because when a move only lasts 1 minute, the worst thing you can do is wait extra seconds longer to activate a WS. Savagery Warcry is all about spamming at lower tp values because you can abuse the mechanic's advantage. Here's to hoping Footwork gets a longer duration (2 minutes would be perfect!) and Bhikku Gaiters +2/3 further enhances the trait. Footwork + Tornado Kick is just absurd damage and it often gets overlooked because it's locked behind a 1 minute duration. When properly supported, TK is a full wrecking ball.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-09 08:35:25
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
SimonSes said: »
That being said, I never modeled TK spam with Godhands, Savagery, Footwork and Impetus

I wouldn't be mad if Footwork got reworked to provide a TP bonus effect during Kicking WS. Because when a move only lasts 1 minute, the worst thing you can do is wait extra seconds longer to activate a WS. Savagery Warcry is all about spamming at lower tp values because you can abuse the mechanic's advantage. Here's to hoping Footwork gets a longer duration (2 minutes would be perfect!) and Bhikku Gaiters +2/3 further enhances the trait. Footwork + Tornado Kick is just absurd damage and it often gets overlooked because it's locked behind a 1 minute duration. When properly supported, TK is a full wrecking ball.

It's wrecking ball on MNK. When you compare it to WSs on other jobs used on similar TP threshold, it's just among many that have similar or higher damage. MNK adds tons of white damage on top of that tho.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-09 09:19:03
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It has to be considerably weaker when you add in the white damage though. They don't want MNK pumping out 75k Tornado Kicks while pushing out 20k dmg attack rounds every few seconds
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By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2019-05-09 10:04:21
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It has to be considerably weaker when you add in the white damage though. They don't want MNK pumping out 75k Tornado Kicks while pushing out 20k dmg attack rounds every few seconds

Not sure what context (zerg?) you are referring to, but it is already doing 50-60k now with a ***ton of white damage. When I looked at the all of the results (dmg acc etc) from last night's parser Dyna D Bastok, specifcally on the Galka was completely floored.
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-05-09 10:16:57
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Tbh, any fight you opt to pop 1hr is a fight youve opted to not seriously participate in, so i wouldnt use the argument of "well a war can pop their ms and out damage a monk". Yeah, if youre gunna conduit burn things, youre aiming to not even participate in the fight or deal with its mechanics to begin with, and id hardly factor it into a real discussion.

That being said, id love to see the JP hundred fists be changed to something like TP steal on hit so monk can hard lock a target out of all TP for the duration, or removing the forced delay after WS during HF. (Id also love them to change EES to something other than a weaker barrage every hr)
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2019-05-09 10:23:04
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Oh god, he is back.
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By Bismarck.Gippali 2019-05-09 10:28:03
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Bismarck.Nyaarun said: »
Tbh, any fight you opt to pop 1hr is a fight youve opted to not seriously participate in, so i wouldnt use the argument of "well a war can pop their ms and out damage a monk". Yeah, if youre gunna conduit burn things, youre aiming to not even participate in the fight or deal with its mechanics to begin with, and id hardly factor it into a real discussion.

Only thing I would even marginally agree with is the AC smn zerg part. But saying "Using 1hrs is opting to not participate" is just plain goofy. I blow all my 1hr's (Soul Enslave/Inner Strength/etc)on Albumen/HELM that are very useful. It's a pretty terrible blanket statement.

Also, MNK is great. Play it and have fun.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-09 10:50:22
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It has to be considerably weaker when you add in the white damage though. They don't want MNK pumping out 75k Tornado Kicks while pushing out 20k dmg attack rounds every few seconds

It's nowhere near 20k per round on avg and monk is also slowest melee DPS in game (round delay), so it's not THAT impressive.

I'm in the middle of calculating white damage for few jobs to show the bigger picture here.
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 Leviathan.Nitenichi
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By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2019-05-09 10:52:42
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SimonSes said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It has to be considerably weaker when you add in the white damage though. They don't want MNK pumping out 75k Tornado Kicks while pushing out 20k dmg attack rounds every few seconds

It's nowhere near 20k per round on avg and monk is also slowest melee DPS in game (round delay), so it's not THAT impressive.

I'm in the middle of calculating white damage for few jobs to show the bigger picture here.

Can’t wait to see what you come up with,
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By SimonSes 2019-05-09 10:58:23
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Leviathan.Nitenichi said: »
but it is already doing 50-60k now with a ***ton of white damage.

Seriously why ppl write things like that :/

50-60k is either close to 3000TP TK during Footwork or MA proc on Smite with 50 Impetus stacks. Please add context, because it's pointless otherwise. It's like I would say I'm doing 80k WSs on DRK and forget to mention i'm talking about 3000TP Torcleavers with +30% Scarlet Delirium.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2019-05-09 11:07:59
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Only 80k WSs on DRK? {Too Weak}

I was doing 99,999 Raging Rushes before ilvl weapons were introduced! I was also doing 80k Fast Blades with level 1 weapons when I started leveling PLD!
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2019-05-09 11:10:44
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SimonSes said: »
Leviathan.Nitenichi said: »
but it is already doing 50-60k now with a ***ton of white damage.

Seriously why ppl write things like that :/

50-60k is either close to 3000TP TK during Footwork or MA proc on Smite with 50 Impetus stacks. Please add context, because it's pointless otherwise. It's like I would say I'm doing 80k WSs on DRK and forget to mention i'm talking about 3000TP Torcleavers with +30% Scarlet Delirium.


I'll agree context is quite helpful, however, I'll attest that Nite is one of our most reliable and well versed DD regardless of what job we ask him to come. Dude knows how to gear and play the jobs he does, and he's a damn pleasure to be in party with. I wasn't watching him like a hawk during last night's run, but the number's he's referring to were on wave3 volte mobs/NMs and not often above 2k TP. As for JA usage, that I'm completely blind on. Just wanted to give him the props he deserves, even if was on lolMNK ^^
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By fonewear 2019-05-09 11:14:50
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-09 11:17:04
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Singular(what you said):
SimonSes said: »
It's nowhere near 20k per round on avg and monk


Plural(what I said):
Buukki said: »
while pushing out 20k dmg attack rounds every few seconds

If you hold TP, depending on your buffs, you're within the ballpark for sure. Just mumming around with Spharai + Verethragna and I consistently see attack rounds between 4-6k just standard, and it spikes much higher than that. And it takes a couple rounds to get TP to WS. If you are holding your TP until higher ends, the added total certainly can reach 20k+.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-09 11:19:16
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
SimonSes said: »
Leviathan.Nitenichi said: »
but it is already doing 50-60k now with a ***ton of white damage.

Seriously why ppl write things like that :/

50-60k is either close to 3000TP TK during Footwork or MA proc on Smite with 50 Impetus stacks. Please add context, because it's pointless otherwise. It's like I would say I'm doing 80k WSs on DRK and forget to mention i'm talking about 3000TP Torcleavers with +30% Scarlet Delirium.


I'll agree context is quite helpful, however, I'll attest that Nite is one of our most reliable and well versed DD regardless of what job we ask him to come. Dude knows how to gear and play the jobs he does, and he's a damn pleasure to be in party with. I wasn't watching him like a hawk during last night's run, but the number's he's referring to were on wave3 volte mobs/NMs and not often above 2k TP. As for JA usage, that I'm completely blind on. Just wanted to give him the props he deserves, even if was on lolMNK ^^

Well I wouldn't even try to say he is bad player or anything like that. I only wanted to point out that providing info without context is really misleading :/

50-60k WSs on monk are big spikes in normal scenario. By normal scenario I mean mobs that don't take extra damage (like many mobs in wave 1-2 in dynamis), no escha mobs etc.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-09 11:28:52
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Singular(what you said):
SimonSes said: »
It's nowhere near 20k per round on avg and monk


Plural(what I said):
Buukki said: »
while pushing out 20k dmg attack rounds every few seconds

If you hold TP, depending on your buffs, you're within the ballpark for sure. Just mumming around with Spharai + Verethragna and I consistently see attack rounds between 4-6k just standard, and it spikes much higher than that. And it takes a couple rounds to get TP to WS. If you are holding your TP until higher ends, the added total certainly can reach 20k+.

Well that was misleading for me, because MNK can actually do 20k damage in one round, but that's spikes, not avg. Also MNK is slow and his attack rounds even with capped haste are every few seconds (well its under 2 sec with Veret but above that with other REMA), so with all that info in back of my head, I tho you were talking about single round :P
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By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2019-05-09 11:43:30
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Leviathan.Nitenichi said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
It has to be considerably weaker when you add in the white damage though. They don't want MNK pumping out 75k Tornado Kicks while pushing out 20k dmg attack rounds every few seconds

Not sure what context (zerg?) you are referring to, but it is already doing 50-60k now with a ***ton of white damage. When I looked at the all of the results (dmg acc etc) from last night's parser Dyna D Bastok, specifcally on the Galka was completely floored.

He said 75k Tornado kicks I said 50-60k sorry for the presumption of not adding Footwork. Was for the amount of times that it lasts and once again applied when Footwork was back up. It was definitely a zerg on our part again assume 4 rows of buffs, hence my question to Buukki what his context was.

I said Dyna mobs and specifically the Galka (Bastok Zone 3 Boss)
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-05-09 12:19:21
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SimonSes said: »
Leviathan.Nitenichi said: »
but it is already doing 50-60k now with a ***ton of white damage.

Seriously why ppl write things like that :/

50-60k is either close to 3000TP TK during Footwork or MA proc on Smite with 50 Impetus stacks. Please add context, because it's pointless otherwise. It's like I would say I'm doing 80k WSs on DRK and forget to mention i'm talking about 3000TP Torcleavers with +30% Scarlet Delirium.

I'm still not letting go of the thought of: TK is fine for a big showy damage spike, but is it really better than Victory Smite over time in most situations? I get that people might never be able to answer it outside of their specific situation and how much WS spam is flying around, so there's a bit of an art to making that call... but it should be more of a reasoned decision than just getting caught up in "wow, big spike damage TK/Footwork".

Smite is likely going to be significantly higher frequency since you use it at lower TP. If you're stacking lots of Impetus, Smite is going to get great numbers too thanks to crit WS. Obviously if you're doing 3k TP WS for a big TK, you might get better overall DPS with higher frequency Smites... that also have a good chance of leading to some amount of additional SC damage (even by dumb luck, unless you have tons of DDs and no realistic window for SCs).

Totally pulling numbers out of my *** here, but:
(a) Five 50k TKs and no SC during a 1min Footwork? 250k damage.
or
(b) Twice as many lower TP 20k Victory Smites in the same time, with 30% of them playing a part in an additional ~20k SC damage (regardless of whether you close and it shows up on the parse as the MNK's SC damage, or someone else does)? 260k damage.

Obviously the latter is better in this simple example. And that doesn't even account for potentially higher Smite spikes with crit/MA procs (particularly with Impetus). I really don't have the math for it or a great sense of where the avg WS numbers end up for damage and frequency (and I'd love to see that), I just don't know that people are really looking at this with a proper overall view. Feels suspiciously like the age old flaw of giving too much credit to flashy spike damage versus total damage over time - which MNK of all jobs should understand.

I'm totally aware that it might work out that TK is still better, I just haven't seen anyone establish that with solid data. People are just acting excited about a single big damage WS.

And that's TK/Footwork we're talking about, I'm much more skeptical of HF/RF in the majority of practical situations where you're on MNK...
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By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2019-05-09 12:39:28
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I am not advocating KICK everything. Just it is a superior option when Footwork is up and that's it.
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By SimonSes 2019-05-09 12:47:17
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Totally pulling numbers out of my *** here, but:
(a) Five 50k TKs and no SC during a 1min Footwork? 250k damage.
or
(b) Twice as many lower TP 20k Victory Smites in the same time, with 30% of them playing a part in an additional ~20k SC damage (regardless of whether you close and it shows up on the parse as the MNK's SC damage, or someone else does)? 260k damage.

It's not better. (b) has 10 sec more downtime because of 5 more 2 sec WS delay. 10 sec melee dps is 30-80k of white damage (varies greatly with buffs).

This is why I want to point out again, that because of:
a) high white damage
b) TK and RF scaling very good with TP
c) 2sec WS delay
holding TP on MNK can increase DPS.

Ofc with high Impetus stack and Veret, you want to spam Smite. If you dont zerg anything under 3 mminutes I would suggest to not use Footwork and Impetus together.

Ideally with Veret in longer event I would:
0-3min Focus+Impetus+Smite
3-4min Focus+Smite (Focus will wear off after 30 sec, but nothing you can do about that)
4-5min Footwork+TK

If you notice that you missed with Impetus up, it might be better to hold TP for RF (or TK if you zerg and use Footwork+Impetus).
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