For The Shinies! A Guide For Thief

Well, one thing I could do is use Kparser to measure total number of swings on a mob. This would completely eliminate the time factor. If I were to wear TH +8 and melee a mob until it died, and got for example 2200 swings out of it, I could then measure the final TH value and say

Mob 1 -- 2200 swings, Total TH value == Value
Mob 2 -- 2300 swings, Total TH Value == Value

etc etc. And because we know that a gap between current procced treasure hunter level and worn treasure hunter does affect proc rate chances, there should be a measurable gap between the two samples if it were true that TH gear does not cap for proccing purposes. But if TH is hard capped for proccing purposes, both sets should have similar results.

So theoretically, if I were to hit 10 different mobs 2200 times each with TH 8 gear and the average TH level was 11. And then I were to hit 10 more mobs 2200 times each with TH 14 gear equipped and the average TH level was 13, with a total number of procs being say 34 in the first sample versus 58 in the second that should support Simon's claim right? And if both samples resulted in almost the same proc up, that would support my claim right? We would have both the average TH level of the two sample runs, as well as the total number of procs in them.

The question is, would that be a viable sample size and test? 10 mobs, 2200+ ish* or more hits apiece. Apex mobs have a LOT of HP. I could easily gather a bunch of data on them using the two different worn TH levels with large data samples on each mob.

A few questions about Tauret builds...

1) I know there has been some discussion here, but is there any consensus on /DRG (specifically for Tauret) now that we've had a few weeks to process the October update changes? I've mostly been playing around with that as my sub of choice for the past couple weeks since WSD+7% on all hits of Evisceration is awfully nice (not to mention the nifty Enm- utlity option of High Jump).

2) I've found that a TP set making a few changes from the "standard" TP sets and loading up on some additional crit dmg and TA dmg really makes for a white damage monster in connection with Tauret's massive crit rate <1000tp (and generally spamming Evisceration, aside from the occasional stacked Rudra for something like Omen 30k WS objective or a SC). Any constructive advice on tweaks to the below build?
ItemSet 369408
In particular:
* DA+10% TP cape, or use DEX+30/Acc&Atk+20/Crit+10% for TP?
* Chiner's +1 worth it in this kind of build?
* Had been using Yamarang (I generally think Acc+10/Eva+15/Meva+15 is a good trade versus Ginsen's Atk+10)... but I realized yesterday that swapping that out for Yetshila +1 as a TP piece might be interesting... thoughts?
* Yes, I realize DW+10 from 550 gift + Shijo D is 1 DW under capped delay reduction (assuming haste) - I'm assuming that's still optimal for this use case, right?

3) Adjustments to that TP set for a Twashtar build (taking advantage of Empy AM3 and pumping up those ODT TA or Crit procs)? Specifically:
(a) What's best offhand for that particular application? Max Taming Sari, Tauret, Shijo?
(b) If not Shijo, best slot(s) to get the DW+5~7 (Possibly a place to realistically use AF+3 hands? Adhemar Jacket +1? Kirin Belt? Suppa?)

Most of your questions have pretty straightforward answers

• Subbing dragoon is the optimal max damage choice if you know you're going to be capped on attack. Otherwise subbing warrior produces higher numbers.

• Your tp build is pretty well optimized for white damage. There isn't really anything to change

• You have 59% triple attack rate. The effects of double attack on the cape are severely diminished. Use either Store TP or Critical hit rate. Both are fine in this build. I'd probably go crit rate myself since this is a heavy white damage build and you've stacked crit damage as well.

• Path D Shijo and Chiners +1 complement each other perfectly. There isn't much you can do about the small dual wield differential. Don't worry about it. Any other swaps are sub optimal.

• Twashtar is a different weapon with different mechanics. It doesn't get the 25% crit rate boost under 1000 tp, but gets empyrean aftermath in its place. You're probably better off using the traditional build with Reiki Yotai and either Taming Sari, Tauret, or Centovente offhand. Still, those are the only two slots you'd be swapping out over your tauret build. It's not going to change too much no matter how you slice it.

• Yetshila +1 is better than Yamarang in your Tauret build. It's worth using in the twashter build as well.

Thanks for the input! A couple follow-ups:


Are you implying that /WAR would require use of Berserk to win in uncapped situations? Because for many applications where I'd be using this set, I may well be below capped attack, but not necessarily comfortable with Berserk's defensive penalties. Say, solo farming Omen for Detritus with only trust attack buffs. Or even for some party stuff (where I may still be uncapped without strong buffs), Berserk tends to make me a little nervous on a more fragile job like THF due to the chance of pulling hate, AoEs, etc.

Said another way... if uncapped, does DA+10 from /WAR on its own actually outweigh WSD+7% every hit from /DRG (since that's what the differences really break down to, assuming no/minimal use of Berserk)? I had assumed not, since like you said re: cape augment, DA's value is significantly diminished with so much TA.


Thanks. Fair enough, different mechanics, though somewhat similar logic in that you're pumping up those Empy AM hits by trying to stack them with either a crit or a TA (thanks to THF's TA damage+ gear) for most effectiveness. On RNG I have become a bit of an Armageddon AM3/crit build addict (and for that job, the crit set has more changes from a typical ranged TP set), so I'm toying with similar approaches on other jobs. But yeah, I suppose it doesn't result in big changes to a THF TP set regardless.

I can tell you from a VERY long experience in farming Omen, that using a hybrid set instead of max TP set like above and fighting few mobs at once and cutting down time of pulling them one by one outweights the benefits of more damage in max tp set.

I'll throw an added twist on top of simon's suggestion. I agree that fighting a bunch of mobs at once is far more effecient then single pulling every time. But when I solo omen I like to sub dancer and call a tank trust and add in some melee dps trusts to the fight, then I juggle several mobs at once. My favorite setup is August, Koru, Ironha II, Arciela II, and either Apururu or Mihili. August can easily hold 3 or 4 mobs at a time, which makes for easy sneak attacks, and the melee trusts make for easy trick attack targets. Koru consistently keeps haste II on me and haste samba can be applied right before a weaponskill to negate the job ability delay. It's one of the tricks with dancer sub. At 1400 tp just use haste samba and immediately throw out an evisceration. The dancing animation immediately flows into evisceration which negates haste samba's ability delay penalty. Between all that and the sufficient healing the hybrid trusts provide I can juggle multiple mobs at once like simon does without having to swap into a hybrid TP build myself. Tauret is so powerful it doesn't need much more optimization. The omen trash mobs don't have enough HP to withstand more than one weaponskill anyway.


Yes, berserk is what makes warrior sub stronger than dragoon in uncapped situations. But if you're talking about omen farming with tauret your evisceration's should already be on the cusp of one shotting most trash mobs, so dragoon sub is pretty unnecessary. I'd recommend dancer for the utility in that case. Personally I think dragoon sub is for zerging stuff when you know you're getting super buffed. I still prefer dancer and ninja as our general purpose subs for most other stuff; content dependant on which.

I've done plenty of Omen farming on lots of jobs and I'm quite comfortable with my farming style and clear times, but the tank trust or hybrid set approaches certainly have merit for THF solo.

Although I didn't go into detail before and I said "solo Omen farming" for a shorthand example of the general level of content, I'll clarify that when I do Omen it's usually more of a "solo-ish" dualbox + 4 trusts (most often Sylvie WHM RDM BRD) setup. My alt is mostly just taking up a spot to leech cards/CP on whatever job she needs them for, but I'll also use her to pull the next mob while I fight 1-2 mobs at a time - allows for minimal downtime while still using a more TP-optimal set on my main and not having to worry as much about hybrid gear, tank trusts, etc. Sometimes the alt is on a job like BLM BRD SCH and I'll sleep a group of mobs near me. Other times I just stick her in DT-50% set and cast a single target spell to grab next mob and let it beat on her for a short time while the trusts keep her alive. In any case, I can quickly move between mobs.

Alt will also toss out some buffs depending on job. Usually relatively minor (SCH Regens, RDM haste, WHM buffs, etc.), though occasionally I'll get something decent if I bring her 3-song Ghorn (no HM) BRD. Point is, we're not talking about capped attack situations receiving high end player GEO+BRD+COR buffs.


So do you use a DW+25~26 set for that to maintain capped delay reduction with /DNC Haste Samba?

Cool if that works well for you, though I think I'd prefer the more standard capped magical haste (say, dropping Iroha in favor of a BRD trust to hit 448/1024 magical haste) and just needing 6 DW + 550 gift to hit 80% delay reduction.


C'mon, this is FFXI! People pay tens of millions of gil for tiny stat increases for niche sets. No such thing as not needing more optimization, regardless of what weapon/set we're talking about ;)


Fair enough. I guess the optimal situation for something Omen-level would be to melee one mob to death with no WS at all (where, regardless of weapon, a WS once you've already taken off 3/4 of the mob's HP in white damage would be wasting TP to overkill), and hoping that results in slightly over 1000tp without a ton of overflow. Then on the next mob, Evisceration right away and hopefully you kill the mob or get it really close to death... but also hope you aren't consistently overkilling mobs and wasting that extra WSD anyway. But yeah, that's kinda finicky so I see your point that the /DNC utility argument may hold some weight here, or just go /WAR by virtue of DA providing a benefit that could be more consistently useful.

Perhaps Omen fodder is just too weak of a target though... bump that up to something like Divergence wave 2/NM farming, or a melee-friendly D~VD Ambuscade. Your single WS probably isn't just 1-shotting everything, so you can take more advantage of the full amount of added WSD from /DRG.

And IDK about other people, but I'm very reluctant to ride Berserk in something like Dyna (or a D+ Ambuscade, etc.) - THF is just too damn squishy for that, and pulling hate isn't that rare. I'd rather skip the Berserk risk altogether; if that's what's required to hit capped attack it might not be worthwhile. Perhaps some people would call that too risk averse, but if people are concerned enough about defensive stats to care about TPing in stuff like Meva and Hybrid stats, I'd wager they should be equally concerned about a 25% defense penalty. Plus, there's the additional micromangement of Berserk up/down sets to deal with, and that introduces more potential for error when trying to optimize damage. I'm just not the biggest fan of subjob Berserk in practice, at least on THF (I don't mind it for "safer" applications, say, RNG/WAR that can use Berserk and sit outside of AoE range).

So to me, I kinda like the simplicity of /DRG over /WAR when there's nothing requiring me to /NIN for shadows. You get stronger WS, plain and simple. That seems to be a good trade to me in most situations, versus losing DA+10 from /WAR (where I prob wasn't taking much advantage of Berserk in the first place to get the max theoretical damage).

I guess /DNC has some niche use when you feel you need steps/waltzes/sambas, but I would usually rather use my TP to kill the mob. So, my DNC JA usage is usually more limited to things like the rare "oh ***" Waltz 3 (which really shouldn't be happening much), or something like Steps for Omen objectives (which you could handle fine on THF/DRG with Jump/High Jump/Bully). /DNC had more going for it when you could point to SC damage +8% as a great perk... but that has become less of a highlight when you can now get all hits WSD+7% from /DRG on every WS instead of the subjob only helping your SC damage.

Well assuming its not a fight vs trash, you have slightly more than just 8% skillchain damage bonus.

You have Box step, which is 5-13% def down.
Healing Waltz to for example erase silence from your trust WHM.
Haste samba let you drop that 6% DW (and if you use shijo it makes that 1% DW missing irrelevant). I will admit that Haste samba is kinda meh to maintain on /dnc tho, because you lose 350TP + JA delay every 90 sec, but it's an option.
Animated flourish, mostly for pulling.

EDIT: I know you mentioned all that in your post, but I kinda wanted to point out specific usage for that and provide values for box step in case someone want to consider that.

I just like those trusts. I use Ulima too, and I notice when she switches from marches to ballads as the healers run out of MP. She doesn't take into account they'll just use convert, and by delaying their need to convert she prolongs the time she's singing ballads. I just use my standard TP stuff and the mobs die. I've solod omen countless times now and I don't notice a difference between having ulima vs. different trust in her place. The problem with optimizing omen farming is that the trash mobs are just HP sponges, but unlike apex mobs they're fragile. Tauret's eviscerations are strong enough to kill without needing /drg sub, so that 7% weaponskill damage bonus from /drg is wasted more often than not.


No you aren't alone. I sub /ninja to dynamis because Leg Sweep, Frypan, Battle Dance, and Wrath of Gu'Dha alone are reason enough to bring shadows. And I still pull hate plenty and end up tanking NMs more often than I care to. I've seen other thieves go /war and I tried it once. I ended up dying way too often and never repeated the mistake. I get far more damage output from /ninja in dynamis just because of all the extra uptime. A dead thief deals no damage, and a weakened thief is utterly crippled in their attack speed. I reserve /warrior for only a few specific things. I'd probably consider it for omen bosses though. I haven't done any of them since the update (it's been a slow month). /dancer is still a great sub job for the utility it provides, and there comes a point where /drg sub's bonuses don't transition into much faster run speed so it becomes worth it to consider the tradeoff.


I firmly believe /ninja is your strongest offensive sub in dynamis because it reduces downtime. It's sort of ironic that the sub with pureley defensive abilities provides the highest damage output, but that's what ends up happening. Every leg sweep or frypan that shadows absorb is an extra 5 or 6 seconds of engage time, and Utsu NI only takes a fraction of that to get up. I DO advocate /dragoon on higher tier content though. I've plan to start taking it to NMs from here out.

Doing wave 3 on THF trying to level my JSE neck I've noticed berserk / last resort (DRK is my offensive sub of choice over WAR on most jobs including THF) isn't super needed with a proper setup. Just having HM + Min5 + dia3 + fury / frail +chaos + another 20-25% reduction from either steps, angon / full break / armor break, tenebral crush etc is plenty enough to cap attack. I would SA rudras for 70k regardless of having LR up or not. Next time I have a chance to I'll go /DRG so I can see how much utility it offers, mainly on the wave 3 boss since the biggest issue doing it melee way is inevitably you will cap hate and be forced to tank or potentially eat dirt. Going to see if stealing someone's hate and then dumping it via jump is a worthy tactic since not being beat on is a dps gain in and of itself, the WSD will just be icing on the cake. The main drawback is going to be dealing with AoEs, especially MS fell cleave, but putting bio instead of dia on the NMs and using ramuh to stun lock trash should take the edge off significantly.

To be fair, Drk, Drg, and War sub are all equally vulnerable to aoe's. The only sub job that offers you aoe protection is /ninja. Wave 3 is one of the best places to fulltime malignance gear though, and that should help take the edge off of some of the incoming damage. Let us know how it goes for you.

That's what I meant, was in relation to not having shadows. Malignance set is great for sure if you can get it.

The trick to fell cleave is have your tank stand at max range (so no TA) and all melee stand at max range behind. Fell cleave is AOE based on the target, if both parties are at max range it won't hit people.

I did thf/drg (pre-WS trait) for my wave 3 clears and it was great. I have always had a slight dislike of /nin, and I can see the merits for it, but it would make me feel comfortable behind shadows and then a 5-6hit WS would eat me, lul. My group always swaps to gallants+indi-barrier and I'll emergency PDT if I steal hate for the trash. For the wave 3 boss I'll swap to PDT, collab my other DD, then high jump, which helps the group a fair bit more.

I need to get back to doing Lilith, I really want the gloves now.

We've been running with 3 geos lately so we always have wilt up and on the WARs I have the RDM drop a bio and that usually does the trick, if not we have a SMN to stun lock things. It's when murphy's law applies that ***goes bad - war does fell cleave as first or second ws while a bubble is down and rdm is busy silencing something and you get caught in a WS set that shadows would really help. I don't like /nin either as it always feels like I'm pissing away DPS by constantly casting. I really need to get the rest of the lilith set as I only have the legs so far so I have to resort to using suboptimal gear in hybrid set like turms which has tons of meva and acc but little other offensive stats and no PDT. I think my hybrid set is around 33% total DT or something (moon rings for life). I'm for sure gonna try the /DRG strat next chance I get, it was brought up in a post here a few times and I just gotta try it. Hopefully when they get around to adjusting THF they will give us some better hate manipulation tools. Would be nice to have a decoy shot type of stance or something.

I just unretired my THF in an attempt to get the last 2 Lilith pieces I need.
I've got few questions.

How do you guys reach TH8 in gear without SU5 weapon and without DM augments?
I might be missing something but atm I'm stuck at 7.
1 from unaugmented Sandung
1 from perf Taming Sari
1 from Chaac Belt
3 from Relic hands +1
1 from Empy feet +1

Eeeeeeehr nevermind I didn't notice Empy feet+1 actually have TH+3 and not TH+1 ahahaha, I'm such a tool.

Well this brings me to two more questions though:
1) Should I augment my Sandung? I've got a few Plutons I could use for the purpose, to make Sandung into an offhand. My other options are Perfect Taming Sari or... well that's it, it has to be one of the two because I need TH+1.

2) What happens if I touch an enemy with TH+8 gear but then I swap to a different set and start hitting it with like TH+7 or TH+6?
Should I refrain from doing this if my goal is raising TH?


Thanks!

If you feel like you need the accuracy, Sandung is a good offhand. Otherwise the Taming Sari will probably net you more damage.

As for hitting an enemy with TH8 gear and then swapping to a lower tier of TH? What this will do is start you off at TH8, and your lower amount of worn TH will cause the chance of proccing TH to be lower. The higher your TH is in relation to the current level of TH on the target, the higher the chance is to proc.

Sorry if this has been answered before, anyone happen to know roughly how much evasion is needed to cap out in Omen?

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36654/for-the-shinies-a-guide-for-thief/206/#3458231

Wow how'd I miss that, thanks!

But Sechs you realize that you have TH3 base on THF yes? :)
So you only need +5 in gear for TH8.

No I completely forgot about the basic TH+3 from traits LMAO.
Plus, like I said in my following post, feet are +3 anyway and not +1.

Weeee yeah, and I was wondering what people were using to reach TH8 so easily lol
Someone shoot me in the head plz.

If you don't care too much about losing some dps or w/e (if I'm thf it's purely for TH), then relic +3 gloves and a perfect offhand sari (or sandung if you're not lucky) will get you there.

It might not be optimal to tp in TH8, but eh it doesnt hurt much and it makes me feel better about my proc chances even if it's all placebo.

Approximately 1250 evasion is necessary to cap out on Omen fodder.


The easiest way is with Plunderer's Armlets +3 and Perfect Taming sari or as was mentioned, a sandung offhand.

Base Treasure Hunter Job Trait -- 3
Plunderer's Armlets +3 -- 4
Taming or Sandung -- 1

That's TH 8, which caps the initial hit


It's a proven fact that keeping your treasure hunter gear equipped increases the chances of proccing to higher levels. If you only wear treasure hunter gear for the first hit to get a base level of TH 8 and then swap out of it your chances of proccing treasure hunter drastically go down.


I've also started collecting a bit of TH proc data with TH 8 versus TH 14. Right now my sample size is a bit too small to draw any conclusions, but from what I've seen so far I'm inclined to agree that wearing higher TH values beyond just TH 8 does in fact increase TH proc chances further.

I only have Plunderer's Armlets +1, I've got no clear to ugrade to +3 and frankly that would be quite expensive for a job that's just being a TH *** for me atm.
No offense meant towards people who consider THF their main job, it's just that I have way too many geared up jobs atm to dedicate the required attention to THF as well.

My TH options as mentioned are
Sandung (unaugmented atm, could aug it, got plenty of Pluton Boxes)
Perf Taming Sari
Plunderer's Armlets +1
Skulker's Poulaines +1
Chaac Belt
... and then Herc Feet with TH+2 and shitty stats, or Herc Body with TH+1 and shitty stats.

Also my other dagger options are R1 Aeneas and R5 Twashtar.
I was thinking to use:
Aeneas/Sari, Plund+1, Shitty Herc Feet (they still have some basic decent melee stat, among which TA+2%) for a total of TH+9 which is 1 more than necessary but hey.


Interesting about this finding that having more TH gear than the cap of TH+8 does, appearently, increase the rate of TH+ procs.
That kinda makes me want to make two TH sets.
One focusing on pure DPS with just TH from traits, and one with a *** of TH (in my case I could get up to TH12).
Wonder if that would be worth it though.

Wait... what? Lol can’t give the required attention but you slapped TWO REMAs on it? xD

Well... maybe you have BRD or DNC or something who knows? Still funny though

Similar boat for me, I’m currently holding WAR THF BLU and am now adding MNK and SAM to my list “Mains” run out of room QUICK when you min-max so I get it lol

If you couldn't tell by his name, Sechs is a Bard, so those daggers exist for reasons other than THF.

DNC MNK BLU COR DRK THF RDM here with started PUP RNG and considering BLM, so yeah XD. Im using satchel and sack exclusively for gear and swap in JSE/AF/Relic for job I currently use.

I got them originally for BRD yeah, but I do also have a DNC that's pretty decently equipped (secondary job for me, but got some nice gear)

Aeneas is likely staying at R1 until, dunno, forever?
I plan to R15 Twashtar though, eventually.
Got a Centovente ready for that purpose!

I've got: BRD, SCH, GEO, RDM, SMN, BLU, MNK, PUP, NIN, RUN, DNC.
BRD is my "main" job.
The others, well, some are more developed, some less, all are at least at pretty decent levels, above average I'd say.

I'm already considering retiring something, it's really a huge amount of lost time keeping those lua up to date each time you get a new piece, remembering which sets the new_item_you_just_got could be used in, etc.
So yeah, really, can't afford to dedicate the required attention to other jobs atm.