The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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By Spaitin 2021-04-12 19:21:25
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vim torque +1 is by far our best tp neck. use it, unless the 50 hp is killing you and/or the acc is a problem.
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By Valefor.Grenseal 2021-04-12 19:30:24
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You guys are over-complicating this. Just fulltime Sakpata's and be safe. You're not going to lose much if any dps.
 Asura.Bladework
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By Asura.Bladework 2021-04-12 20:39:04
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Valefor.Grenseal said: »
You guys are over-complicating this. Just fulltime Sakpata's and be safe. You're not going to lose much if any dps.

Warrior can more than get away with TP'ing in the AF+3 legs and feet and the rest Sakpata. I haven't found a fight I need to 5/5 yet.

Losing max HP from Odin Head and Body hurt but Moonlight rings fixed me right up. All other slots can be purely offensive to fit your needs.

If you really aren't worried about taking damage then be a glass cannon in Tatenashi.
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By Valefor.Grenseal 2021-04-12 21:03:16
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Asura.Bladework said: »
Valefor.Grenseal said: »
You guys are over-complicating this. Just fulltime Sakpata's and be safe. You're not going to lose much if any dps.

Warrior can more than get away with TP'ing in the AF+3 legs and feet and the rest Sakpata. I haven't found a fight I need to 5/5 yet.

Losing max HP from Odin Head and Body hurt but Moonlight rings fixed me right up. All other slots can be purely offensive to fit your needs.

If you really aren't worried about taking damage then be a glass cannon in Tatenashi.

Eh.. I've rarely if ever found a use for my Tatenashi build. I find it too impractical.
 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2021-04-12 21:55:39
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One thing about Vim Torque +1 is that the damage ticks are entirely offset from your white mage's Regen IV, yeah? It's not that bad in the grand scheme of things.
 Bahamut.Belkin
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By Bahamut.Belkin 2021-04-13 07:03:49
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Valefor.Grenseal said: »

Eh.. I've rarely if ever found a use for my Tatenashi build. I find it too impractical.

I agree with this sentiment. "Max DPS" set is a deceptive concept. You'd have to be a lunatic to wear it on anything that was moderately difficult because if you do, you are either enfeebled to hell or dead.
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By Spaitin 2021-04-13 19:57:19
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what stuff do you consider "moderately difficult"?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-04-13 21:56:48
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Bahamut.Belkin said: »
Valefor.Grenseal said: »

Eh.. I've rarely if ever found a use for my Tatenashi build. I find it too impractical.

I agree with this sentiment. "Max DPS" set is a deceptive concept. You'd have to be a lunatic to wear it on anything that was moderately difficult because if you do, you are either enfeebled to hell or dead.

I don't agree at all, actually. Tatenashi is a pretty awesome set on WAR, works wonders in Odyssey for Segment farms. Having a good whm for cureskin and heals, and keep your finger on pdt/meva macro if you get any dangerous C4 Beastmen or something like Apkallu. Atonement 3 bosses for sure. Those are the only instances I felt threatened to not use Tate. Other than that, and maybe Bumba V15, I have not found many instances where I couldnt use tatenashi. Not even this month's ambu, unless I was being cautious. But I have found that you don't need so much PDT from full sakpata in many instances on WAR. Getting a retaliation/TA proc for like 1700TP is pretty bonkers sometimes. You live (and die) for that kind of tp gain.

Sakpata is an easymode carefree set for those who don't want to take risks. I play Warrior to take risks though xD
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By SimonSes 2021-04-14 05:11:20
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Sakpata is an easymode carefree set for those who don't want to take risks. I play Warrior to take risks though xD

Its also a set for highest white damage (with Agoge legs) with Ukon at attack cap, so its also for people like me, who like to see big white numbers :D
 Odin.Senaki
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By Odin.Senaki 2021-04-14 05:46:20
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Spaitin said: »
vim torque +1 is by far our best tp neck. use it, unless the 50 hp is killing you and/or the acc is a problem.

With a Sch healer and Regen, the hp /tick can easily be negated.
 Bahamut.Yiazmat
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By Bahamut.Yiazmat 2021-04-14 06:54:23
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Isnt Hja body still better for Ukon am3 with the crit rate ?
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By SimonSes 2021-04-14 07:22:06
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Bahamut.Yiazmat said: »
Isnt Hja body still better for Ukon am3 with the crit rate ?

Maybe with Fighter's roll and uncapped attack. Otherwise nope.
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By Odin.Senaki 2021-04-14 12:21:08
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SimonSes said: »
Bahamut.Yiazmat said: »
Isnt Hja body still better for Ukon am3 with the crit rate ?

Maybe with Fighter's roll and uncapped attack. Otherwise nope.

If you have low crit rate, I think it's better. But if Mighty strikes or blood rage is up you'll wanna swap to Sakpata body imo.
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-04-14 13:06:42
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Bahamut.Belkin said: »
Valefor.Grenseal said: »

Eh.. I've rarely if ever found a use for my Tatenashi build. I find it too impractical.

I agree with this sentiment. "Max DPS" set is a deceptive concept. You'd have to be a lunatic to wear it on anything that was moderately difficult because if you do, you are either enfeebled to hell or dead.

I'd have to start asking what kinds of macro setups people are using? Like are you guys treating "DT" sets like a perpetual mode or as a button?

The way most do this is they have a button somewhere, either a macro or a keybind, that puts on "Hells Yeah DPS set" and a different macro / keybind that puts on a "Oh Hell No set". Those two buttons are usually right next to each other and within quick reach for instant activation. You play in the DPS set, and if you see glowy red arrows or other indication that something bad is about to happen, you press the "Oh Hell No" button, ride out the danger moment, then press the "Hells Yeah" button. The entire fight is alternating between these buttons to maximize DPS while minimizing bad stuff from happening. We even try to fit "DPS" stuff into that "Oh Hell No" set and ended up calling it a "hybrid".

Warrior is about managing risk.
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By SimonSes 2021-04-14 13:30:49
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Bahamut.Belkin said: »
Valefor.Grenseal said: »

Eh.. I've rarely if ever found a use for my Tatenashi build. I find it too impractical.

I agree with this sentiment. "Max DPS" set is a deceptive concept. You'd have to be a lunatic to wear it on anything that was moderately difficult because if you do, you are either enfeebled to hell or dead.

I'd have to start asking what kinds of macro setups people are using? Like are you guys treating "DT" sets like a perpetual mode or as a button?

The way most do this is they have a button somewhere, either a macro or a keybind, that puts on "Hells Yeah DPS set" and a different macro / keybind that puts on a "Oh Hell No set". Those two buttons are usually right next to each other and within quick reach for instant activation. You play in the DPS set, and if you see glowy red arrows or other indication that something bad is about to happen, you press the "Oh Hell No" button, ride out the danger moment, then press the "Hells Yeah" button. The entire fight is alternating between these buttons to maximize DPS while minimizing bad stuff from happening. We even try to fit "DPS" stuff into that "Oh Hell No" set and ended up calling it a "hybrid".

Warrior is about managing risk.

Yeah all cool except some AoE tp moves are instant and you have no time for "Oh Hell No" button. Also what changed is that before Sakpata, DT set was much more behind (especially at attack cap) max TP set (depends which weapon too). Now its very little DPS loss, so max DPS set now is big risk with little reward (similar situation to MNK really) or even no reward if you are against many debuffs, so I wouldnt use it unless you are really pressured by time and facing some DPS check.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-04-14 13:51:42
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SimonSes said: »
some AoE tp moves are instant and you have no time for "Oh Hell No" button.

This would fall under:

Asura.Saevel said: »
managing risk
Asura.Saevel said: »
if you see glowy red arrows or other indication that something bad is about to happen
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
keep your finger on pdt/meva macro if you get any dangerous

You know you are fighting something that can wreck you. Troll Beastmen in C (defense down). Apkallu. Manticore. Mandys. Scorpions. Wyrm. You would hit that button BEFORE it uses the bad moves. Then you can safely switch back to Tatenashi/Max deeps set when the threat passes. You don't need to be in Sakpata for Skeletons, Soulflayers, Puks, etc.

So manage the risk based on what you fight. Can ride the DT toggle for as long as you need to, then switch back. Really, there's a place for both sets.
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By SimonSes 2021-04-14 14:12:54
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I didn't know we are talking only about segment farming. I was talking about whole endgame. Gaol NMs have often AoEs that are instant and you can get wrecked or drbuffed before you can respond. That being said, on segment farming, it depends what you are using, because you are probably attack capped and many Sakpata pieces might actually be higher dps, not only higher survivability.
 Valefor.Grenseal
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By Valefor.Grenseal 2021-04-14 14:44:58
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Bahamut.Belkin said: »
Valefor.Grenseal said: »

Eh.. I've rarely if ever found a use for my Tatenashi build. I find it too impractical.

I agree with this sentiment. "Max DPS" set is a deceptive concept. You'd have to be a lunatic to wear it on anything that was moderately difficult because if you do, you are either enfeebled to hell or dead.

I'd have to start asking what kinds of macro setups people are using? Like are you guys treating "DT" sets like a perpetual mode or as a button?

The way most do this is they have a button somewhere, either a macro or a keybind, that puts on "Hells Yeah DPS set" and a different macro / keybind that puts on a "Oh Hell No set". Those two buttons are usually right next to each other and within quick reach for instant activation. You play in the DPS set, and if you see glowy red arrows or other indication that something bad is about to happen, you press the "Oh Hell No" button, ride out the danger moment, then press the "Hells Yeah" button. The entire fight is alternating between these buttons to maximize DPS while minimizing bad stuff from happening. We even try to fit "DPS" stuff into that "Oh Hell No" set and ended up calling it a "hybrid".

Warrior is about managing risk.


Yeah, manage risk by wearing Sakpata.

"Hybrid"? Sakpata pretty much made that obsolete.

"Oh hell no"? Just hit that WS button instead of wasting time switching sets.

The difference between Sakpata and some theoretical max dps set is minimal to non-existent.

With Sakpata, you're also way less saddled with enfeebs. More uptime = more deeps.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-04-14 15:18:33
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You said in other thread it's 2021, the new endgame is Odyssey. That's the context of discussion because everything else before these sets were beaten to a pulp with previous gear.

I didn't say it was only about segment farms. I specifically mentioned Atonement 3+ as an instance where you WOULDN'T want to take that risk and use max DPS build in my first post. That goes without saying. You keep saying things happen so fast to react, but nobody is really saying you have to do that. You can use the hybrid full time, when appropriate.

In segment farms you will lose sv songs around the third floor, so being at attack cap is not really a given. But tatenashi is a ma/STP set, it will benefit from TP overflow. I don't see what being at attack cap has anything to do with it, unless you mean white damage? If anything, being at attack cap helps tatenashi set's lower attack values a bit more.

In any event, segment farms are the perfect example to use for where you would switch up your sets accordingly, because of the varying monster groups you encounter at random times. Some monsters are more dangerous than others. So you use Sakpata for those. The weaklings you can use tatenashi because the extra defense is not necessary.

As far as Gaol, it's kind of not a good example because it's one fight, one mechanic, so you would be more like kindly to stay in the exact set for safety reasons.
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-04-14 18:02:40
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
SimonSes said: »
some AoE tp moves are instant and you have no time for "Oh Hell No" button.

This would fall under:

Asura.Saevel said: »
managing risk
Asura.Saevel said: »
if you see glowy red arrows or other indication that something bad is about to happen
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
keep your finger on pdt/meva macro if you get any dangerous

You know you are fighting something that can wreck you. Troll Beastmen in C (defense down). Apkallu. Manticore. Mandys. Scorpions. Wyrm. You would hit that button BEFORE it uses the bad moves. Then you can safely switch back to Tatenashi/Max deeps set when the threat passes. You don't need to be in Sakpata for Skeletons, Soulflayers, Puks, etc.

So manage the risk based on what you fight. Can ride the DT toggle for as long as you need to, then switch back. Really, there's a place for both sets.

Those glow lines are the NM charging for it's TP move, virtually all monster TP moves have an animation effect around the boss that we learn to recognize. We see that animation we hit the DT gear button and when the move goes off we're already in DT.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-04-14 18:11:28
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Ok, so you ARE talking about reacting to TP moves and using sets on the fly. I was talking about using Sakpata when you're fighting something strong and then switch tatenashi when the enemy is weaker. I don't rely on reaction because, as Simon said, there are moves that go off faster than you can naturally respond.

Yeah, no. In a fast paced events, that's not reliable enough for me.
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By SimonSes 2021-04-14 18:31:08
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
In segment farms you will lose sv songs around the third floor, so being at attack cap is not really a given. But tatenashi is a ma/STP set, it will benefit from TP overflow. I don't see what being at attack cap has anything to do with it, unless you mean white damage? If anything, being at attack cap helps tatenashi set's lower attack values a bit more.

I completely dont understand why people are using SV on lower def monsters instead of on higher def monsters. It doesnt make sense. You should SV on 3rd and 4th floors, not 1 and 2.

Attack cap has a lot to do with it, because if you can cap attack with PDL, then boost to white damage is so significant that it minimize most advantage that Tatenashi can give you (not for every weapon tho) and in case of Ukonvasara, it can even beat Tatenashi.

At attack cap, even with Chango, highest I could get in sheet with Tatenashi and Flamma +1 head was 1.3% ahead in dps over 4/5 Sakpata and Agoge legs +3. For Ukon AM3, Sakpata/Agoge is 11% ahead. For Neagling tatenashi is again 1.3% ahead. For Loxotic Tatenashi is 2.2% ahead. One resisted slow/paralyze/etc. and even that 1-2% dps advantage with some weapons will turn to disadvantage. Self skillchaining would probably change this a little for Chango and Ukon, but you dont really self SC in segments farming unless maybe on Agon mobs?

So I dont really see the point of "Max TP" set at attack cap, when Sakpata performs that good.
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By Asura.Shiraj 2021-04-14 21:30:15
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SimonSes said: »
I completely dont understand why people are using SV on lower def monsters instead of on higher def monsters. It doesnt make sense. You should SV on 3rd and 4th floors, not 1 and 2.

People SV/CC on first floor because you have a chance of Wild Card resetting it and letting you have SV songs for 22 minutes instead of 11 minutes only.
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By SimonSes 2021-04-15 03:34:17
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Asura.Shiraj said: »
SimonSes said: »
I completely dont understand why people are using SV on lower def monsters instead of on higher def monsters. It doesnt make sense. You should SV on 3rd and 4th floors, not 1 and 2.

People SV/CC on first floor because you have a chance of Wild Card resetting it and letting you have SV songs for 22 minutes instead of 11 minutes only.

Still use it after 10 minutes then. Is sv even needed to cap attack on first floor? Small chance for reset is not worth wasting probably most of sv potency when it's not needed.
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By Spaitin 2021-04-15 13:30:55
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SimonSes said: »
At attack cap, even with Chango, highest I could get in sheet with Tatenashi and Flamma +1 head was 1.3% ahead in dps over 4/5 Sakpata and Agoge legs +3.
I would like to point out that there isn't an accurate and updated war spreadsheet at this time.

If someone thinks they have one, they should post it so we can look into it and get all the errors out of them.
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By Odin.Miniman 2021-04-15 13:53:23
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Between Farsha and Ukon, which is generally more useful for white damage fights? I'm starting to get into endgame stuff on WAR and I'm wondering which will give me more bang for my buck. I'll probably make both at some point but for now I'm just going to fund one. Also on the topic, would it be more useful to R15 an empy or Chango first given WAR's uses right now? Thanks in advance!
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By Valefor.Grenseal 2021-04-15 13:58:50
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Odin.Miniman said: »
Between Farsha and Ukon, which is generally more useful for white damage fights? I'm starting to get into endgame stuff on WAR and I'm wondering which will give me more bang for my buck. I'll probably make both at some point but for now I'm just going to fund one. Also on the topic, would it be more useful to R15 an empy or Chango first given WAR's uses right now? Thanks in advance!


Make Chango, then a Shining One, then a Loxotic Mace+1. You'd be set for pretty much anything.
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By Odin.Miniman 2021-04-15 14:06:38
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Valefor.Grenseal said: »
Odin.Miniman said: »
Between Farsha and Ukon, which is generally more useful for white damage fights? I'm starting to get into endgame stuff on WAR and I'm wondering which will give me more bang for my buck. I'll probably make both at some point but for now I'm just going to fund one. Also on the topic, would it be more useful to R15 an empy or Chango first given WAR's uses right now? Thanks in advance!


Make Chango, then a Shining One, then a Loxotic Mace+1. You'd be set for pretty much anything.

Oh I have Chango/Shining One/Lox+1 with aug already so I have those bases covered. That's good to hear though! Mainly just trying to figure out which empy to make first as well as my R15 order :)
 Valefor.Grenseal
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By Valefor.Grenseal 2021-04-15 14:12:03
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Odin.Miniman said: »
Valefor.Grenseal said: »
Odin.Miniman said: »
Between Farsha and Ukon, which is generally more useful for white damage fights? I'm starting to get into endgame stuff on WAR and I'm wondering which will give me more bang for my buck. I'll probably make both at some point but for now I'm just going to fund one. Also on the topic, would it be more useful to R15 an empy or Chango first given WAR's uses right now? Thanks in advance!


Make Chango, then a Shining One, then a Loxotic Mace+1. You'd be set for pretty much anything.

Oh I have Chango/Shining One/Lox+1 with aug already so I have those bases covered. That's good to hear though! Mainly just trying to figure out which empy to make first as well as my R15 order :)


In that case make them both. Also Conqueror, I mean what else are you going to do in this game? lol.
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By Asura.Sirris 2021-04-15 14:55:36
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Odin.Miniman said: »
Between Farsha and Ukon, which is generally more useful for white damage fights? I'm starting to get into endgame stuff on WAR and I'm wondering which will give me more bang for my buck. I'll probably make both at some point but for now I'm just going to fund one. Also on the topic, would it be more useful to R15 an empy or Chango first given WAR's uses right now? Thanks in advance!

I'm biased because I have Farsha but any situation where you are the primary focus of the monster Farsha is an absolute beast! You get more Retaliation procs compared to Ukon and Mistral Axe is a good WS.

R15 Chango first, I guess. You can do fine with Ukon R15 first but Chango is still overall the better weapon.
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