The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-04 13:49:16
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DirectX said: »
You act like 3 STP is going to be the difference of hundreds of TP. In reality it would be how much? Would it even be double digits?

0.1% > 0.0%

Decide yourself if it's worth it for your build.

DirectX said: »
Also your post PRESUMES everyone can pull a 4DA and Acc+20++ V Mail out of the bag easily when it could take hundreds of stones. A presumption like this makes the argument incredibly biased. At least you can outright buy the Apogee+3.

I said nothing of the sort, that's just your projection.

DirectX said: »
Also do you consider Vmail better than Dagos because of this 3STP?

Funny thing is that Dagos does almost nothing for WAR as WAR's is already so saturated with Multi-Attack. With SAM's roll it's also saturated with Store TP. They both end up about the same with it tipping slightly in either direction depending on the exact situation.
 
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By 2018-06-04 14:12:34
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 Cerberus.Mrkillface
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By Cerberus.Mrkillface 2018-06-04 15:32:35
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As far as I can tell based on ah prices, the mats for agoge +3 cost about 11m. If you can't get decent augments on valorous with 11m worth of stones, you have terrible luck and should live inside a hermetically sealed bubble for your own protection.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-04 16:28:17
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It's just typical unicorn talk.
 
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By 2018-06-04 17:16:09
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By deathdance 2018-06-04 19:55:36
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The entire line of thinking that DA on Valorous/Relic+3 body is better than TA from Dagon is reliant on the fact that standard COR rolls for DD setups are SAM/Chaos, or the assumption of a lack in rolls altogether. Although if you consider standard buffs for high-tier engagements, such as Idris Frailty/Fury, SV/Marcato HM,Min,Min,Mad/Scherzo, then you get into the realm of already being attack capped. This allows the COR to roll SAM/Fighter's thereby making up for the subject of DA loss due to TA, and refilling said "lost" values, causing an overall increase to all parameters. *Food for thought*
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-04 22:40:03
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deathdance said: »
The entire line of thinking that DA on Valorous/Relic+3 body is better than TA from Dagon is reliant on the fact that standard COR rolls for DD setups are SAM/Chaos, or the assumption of a lack in rolls altogether.

Who said the 7 DA was better then the 5 TA? They should be about the same with TA edging it out slightly. If the player was at 0 MA then it would be 1.07 vs 1.10 for average attacks per round so 2.8% best case scenario. Layering on more MA just push's into diminishing returns such that it's still better but by an extremely small amount. The 3 Store TP faces the exact same situation, layering on so much Store TP it gets lost in diminishing returns.

If it's a total comparison for DPS then Dagon would barely win with it's crit rate increase. If the acc maters then Dagon has more of that and then Resist Slow +90 could help the player prevent a DPS crippling Slowga at a bad moment. The difference is very small but 0.1% > 0%.
 
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By 2018-06-05 05:31:17
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-05 08:24:41
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DirectX said: »
TA is calculated before DA though so diminishing returns is irrelevant??

Thats not how math works.

Important number is average attacks per round and thats a result of all multi-attack together.

Update,

Now that I'm at my home I can demonstrate this using a 0 MA baseline.

+0 MA would be 1.0 average attacks per round
+50 DA would be 1.5 average attacks per round, 1.5/1.0 = 50% increase
+50 TA would be 2.0 average attacks per round, 2.0/1.0 = 100% increase.

Now lets add 50 TA to a baseline of 50 DA.

+50 DA = 1.5 average attacks per round baseline
+50 TA = 2.25 average attacks per round

2.25/1.5 = 50% increase.

That is what diminishing returns are. The same +50 TA gave a +100% increase in attack speed to someone with zero multi-attack but only a +50% increase to someone who already had a 1.5 average. It's effective potency was halved.

Now just to demonstrate a rather extreme version, 3 QA, 12 TA, 94 DA would be 2.125 average attacks per round (that's my Montant +1 build). Adding the same 50 TA from earlier gives us 2.639 average attacks per round for an increase of 24.18%. That's a quarter of the effectiveness it originally had.
 Bahamut.Khelek
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By Bahamut.Khelek 2018-06-06 17:11:34
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I recently came across something on the bg wiki that seemed wrong to me, and as it relates to, and was tested on WAR, I'll post my results here.

On the Double Attack page it says that DA is limited to 2 procs per WS. The source is 9 years old, so maybe it was true at one point, but I don't recall it ever being the case.

Test:
WAR/SAM
Party: GEO 2box, Kupipi, Cherukiki, Ulmia, Koru-Moru.
sTP total: 47
Weapon: Hepatizon Axe (504 delay)
140 base tp return X 1.47 = 205 tp/hit (confirmed with repeated 410 returns for 2x hits per attack round)
DA: 84%.
No QA or TA used.
No ionis used.
Enemy: Apex Toad (30tp when getting hit)
WS used: Upheaval (4hit, base+3)

If there is a 2x proc cap, the highest return would be 255 (205+50).
Most common TP return observed: 275
This would mean 205 from the initial hit, and another 70 from the following 7 hits, confirming that there is no arbitrary limit on DA procs for WSs.

Not sure why it was on there, as I'm fairly sure most of us knew that every hit can proc DA.

I decided to also test the 8 hit/attack round cap for WSs while I was out there, and got a couple weird returns that perhaps someone else can make sense of. Used Ragnarok and Resolution for this, but otherwise the same gear/setup. Ragnarok's tp return with this setup was 179tp, meaning 8 hits would be a 249tp return. This was what I observed half of the time, which was expected. What wasn't expected was getting 263 tp returns for most of the other WSs. I can't explain it, unless you can actually get a 9th hit, and that hit is affected by sTP, unlike hits 2-8, as 263 is 14 tp more than 249, and 14 would be the return from applying 47 sTP to the 10 tp on additional ws hits. If anyone knows what's up with this, please enlighten me on what I either neglected to think of, or if there's something else going on here.


EDIT: ***'s wrong. Wearing 40-49 sTP and neglecting to apply sTP to the additional hits of the WS past the initial one made the results appear as though upheaval could hit 8 times.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-06 17:24:31
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Bahamut.Khelek said: »
Not sure why it was on there, as I'm fairly sure most of us knew that every hit can proc DA.

No.... the exact opposite of that is true.

There are two MA procs per WS, provided the WS has more then one hit. Was tested a bazillion times awhile back. If MA proced more then twice per WS it would be ~extremely~ noticeable, especially on jobs with a lot of DA / TA. As a WAR we can easily get 100% DA in a WS set, that would equal to a 8 hit Resolution ~every single time~ which has long since been shown not to happen. With 100% the maximum hits we've gotten is seven among hundreds of Resolutions. What's happening is your likely getting conserve TP procs in there somewhere or some other source of TP. Would also explain your "9 hit WS" when the 8 hit limit has long since been established with Asuran Fists.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-06-06 18:05:33
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14 * 5 = 70. You're forgetting that the extra hits benefit from STP as well. Problem solved.
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2018-06-06 19:55:11
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Also 504 Delay should give 143 TP base, not 140

Edit: Yeah, I'm wrong
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-06-06 19:56:06
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no, it's 140.
 Asura.Jteken
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By Asura.Jteken 2018-06-07 03:52:12
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Maybe it's just me but the search function is down :(
Could anyone post a Fell cleave set ? I believe STR/WSD/xHit ?
Thanks !
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-07 07:51:59
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Yeah just STR / WSD.
Code
	sets.FellCleave = {ammo="Knobkierrie",
			    head="Agoge mask +3",neck="Fotia gorget",ear1="Ishvara earring",ear2="Moonshade earring",
			 	body="Pummeler's lorica +3",hands="Odyssean gauntlets",ring1="Niqmaddu ring",ring2="Regal ring",
			   	back=STR_Back,waist="Fotia belt",legs="Argosy breeches +1",feet="Sulevia's leggings +2"}


The hands are my upheaval hands with VIT +14 WSD +4 on them, the back is STR +30 WSD +10 and I have hte Argosy legs cause lots of STR and some Store TP vs only WSD +4 VIT +10 from my Odyssean legs.
 
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By 2018-06-07 08:09:32
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 Asura.Jteken
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By Asura.Jteken 2018-06-07 09:27:29
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Yeah just STR / WSD.
Code
	sets.FellCleave = {ammo="Knobkierrie",
			    head="Agoge mask +3",neck="Fotia gorget",ear1="Ishvara earring",ear2="Moonshade earring",
			 	body="Pummeler's lorica +3",hands="Odyssean gauntlets",ring1="Niqmaddu ring",ring2="Regal ring",
			   	back=STR_Back,waist="Fotia belt",legs="Argosy breeches +1",feet="Sulevia's leggings +2"}


The hands are my upheaval hands with VIT +14 WSD +4 on them, the back is STR +30 WSD +10 and I have hte Argosy legs cause lots of STR and some Store TP vs only WSD +4 VIT +10 from my Odyssean legs.

Exactly what I need, thanks!
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-07 10:28:20
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DirectX said: »
Why not 5% on each?? Augs are quick, cheap and easy to get yo!

Because VIT +14 WSD 4 > WSD +5 and = VIT 10 WSD 5.

It's 4~5 of a stat per one point of WSD for high fTP high WSC single hit attacks and those are for 2K TP Upheaval. My Odyssean legs are built for Upheaval the STR from Argosy is so high that a purpose built STR / WSD legs wouldn't be much difference on something like Fell Cleave.
 Cerberus.Darkvlade
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By Cerberus.Darkvlade 2018-06-07 11:36:46
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@ Savael i was looking for your upheaval tp set @ 200tp and if you can explain the thinking as to why it is better wsing at 200tp will be appreciated very much

Edit: never mind I found the info thanks everyone

Hahaha forgot to refresh page, you guys are awesome thanks Savael
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-07 13:36:12
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Cerberus.Darkvlade said: »
@ Savael i was looking for your upheaval tp set @ 200tp and if you can explain the thinking as to why it is better wsing at 200tp will be appreciated very much

It's not better to hold WS at 2K TP, you merely build a different set for it because Upheaval changes dynamics around that point.

Upheaval @1K TP
1.0
+3 x 1.0 + Multi-Attacks

Upheaval @1250 TP (moonshade)
1.625
+3 x 1.0 + Multi-Attacks

Upheaval @1750 TP (moonshade + Chango)
2.875
+3 x 1.0 + Multi-Attacks

Upheaval @2K TP (1250 + moonshade + Chango)
3.5
+3 x 1.0 + Multi-Attacks

Upheaval @2450 (moonshade + Chango + Warcry)
4.85
+3 x 1.0 + Multi-Attacks

So you can see that before 2K TP the damage is more evenly spread among all the hits and you want to focus on VIT and Multi-Attack. At around 2K and higher the damage is focused on the primary hit and you want to focus on VIT and WSD. It's best to have two sets and some logic that determines which to use when you WS or you chose with equipsets if no lua.

This is for 2K or higher
Code
	sets.UpheavalA = {ammo="Knobkierrie",
			     head="Agoge mask +3",neck="Fotia gorget",ear1="Ishvara earring",ear2="Moonshade earring",
			     body="Pummeler's lorica +3",hands="Odyssean gauntlets",ring1="Niqmaddu ring",ring2="Regal ring",
			     back=WSD_Back,waist="Fotia belt",legs=WSD_Legs,feet="Sulevia's leggings +2"}


This is for under 2K TP
Code
	sets.UpheavalB = {ammo="Knobkierrie",
			     head="Odyssean helm",neck="Fotia gorget",ear1="Telos earring",ear2="Moonshade earring",
		 	     body="Pummeler's lorica +3",hands="Sulevia's gauntlets +2",ring1="Niqmaddu ring",ring2="Regal ring",
			     back=WSD_Back,waist="Caudata belt",legs="Sulevia's cuisses +2",feet="Pummeler's calligae +3"


For under 2K my helm has VIT +15 and large amount of Atk/Acc on it. I still need to get an unmoving collar but it hasn't been a big deal. The Since I'm using a Chango when I'm using this WS, set is more focused towards having around 1750 TP and having extra accuracy to land all the hits.
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By olson2189 2018-06-07 13:45:59
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Cerberus.Darkvlade said: »
@ Savael i was looking for your upheaval tp set @ 200tp and if you can explain the thinking as to why it is better wsing at 200tp will be appreciated very much

The two-sentence explanation (without the math) is: Upheaval has a nice fTP scale, but fTP doesn't transfer across all hits with Upheaval (only benefits the first hit, just like WSD), so as you scale up, the first hit becomes a larger and larger portion of the damage. There's a point (around 2K TP) where that first hit is so significant that it's better to build your set all around that first hit (make the strongest hit even stronger by stacking WSD).
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By Cerberus.Darkvlade 2018-06-07 14:08:47
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What % amount of WSD is the average to make upheaval @ 2K TP more significant, like how much WSD should I aim for, I count 35 wsd before factoring odyssean hands/legs (+5~10 each[DM augments]) and the fotia set is that 20 for the two piece?
 
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By 2018-06-07 14:13:45
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By olson2189 2018-06-07 14:15:32
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Cerberus.Darkvlade said: »
What % amount of WSD is the average to make upheaval @ 2K TP more significant, like how much WSD should I aim for

I don't know offhand, but that's a spreadsheet exercise you can do pretty easily. Just start upping a WSD augment until you hit that break-even threshold.

If you do it, please share. I'd be curious to know too. It's been a long-standing thing that 2K is the magic threshold, but with new sources of WSD (i.e., relic head +3), it's very possible that a BiS WSD build starts to win at something lower than 2K TP now.
 Cerberus.Darkvlade
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By Cerberus.Darkvlade 2018-06-07 14:36:49
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These are some of the WSD gear I currently have for those slots, any worth keeping before I head back to oseem

head={ name="Odyssean Helm", augments={'Accuracy+28','Weapon skill damage +3%','STR+11','Attack+4',}}

head={ name="Valorous Mask", augments={'Accuracy+17 Attack+17','Weapon skill damage +4%','Attack+2',}}

body={ name="Valorous Mail", augments={'Accuracy+21 Attack+21','"Dbl.Atk."+5','VIT+10','Accuracy+14','Attack+5',}},(TP one but got VIT instead of STR)

body={ name="Valorous Mail", augments={'Weapon skill damage +5%','VIT+10','Attack+15',}},

hands={ name="Odyssean Gauntlets", augments={'Weapon skill damage +4%','VIT+14','Accuracy+2','Attack+15',}},

legs={ name="Odyssean Cuisses", augments={'Accuracy+21 Attack+21','Weapon skill damage +4%','Accuracy+15','Attack+11',}},

feet={ name="Valorous Greaves", augments={'Accuracy+23 Attack+23','Weapon skill damage +2%','STR+15','Accuracy+6','Attack+4',}},
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-07 16:50:46
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DirectX said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
DirectX said: »
Why not 5% on each?? Augs are quick, cheap and easy to get yo!

Because VIT +14 WSD 4 > WSD +5 and = VIT 10 WSD 5.

It's 4~5 of a stat per one point of WSD for high fTP high WSC single hit attacks and those are for 2K TP Upheaval. My Odyssean legs are built for Upheaval the STR from Argosy is so high that a purpose built STR / WSD legs wouldn't be much difference on something like Fell Cleave.
Can own multiple pieces, other ones for Fell Cleave!!

Why would I waste the time on that, just use what's on hand and reasonable.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-07 16:53:00
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olson2189 said: »
Cerberus.Darkvlade said: »
What % amount of WSD is the average to make upheaval @ 2K TP more significant, like how much WSD should I aim for

I don't know offhand, but that's a spreadsheet exercise you can do pretty easily. Just start upping a WSD augment until you hit that break-even threshold.

If you do it, please share. I'd be curious to know too. It's been a long-standing thing that 2K is the magic threshold, but with new sources of WSD (i.e., relic head +3), it's very possible that a BiS WSD build starts to win at something lower than 2K TP now.

The amount of WSD available doesn't determine the inflection point but the relative damage difference between the first hit and the rest. The value of any one specific piece of gear is going to be relative to the alternative. On an eight hit WS, 1% WSD > empty slot. So when asking "how much WSD <blah" we need to define what the alternative is.
 Bahamut.Khelek
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By Bahamut.Khelek 2018-06-07 17:40:53
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
14 * 5 = 70. You're forgetting that the extra hits benefit from STP as well. Problem solved.

Thank you, my brain was dead set on the additional hits after the first not being affected by sTP, but I guess I had the right amount of sTP equipped for it to get confusing.
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By Lakshmi.Likos 2018-06-07 20:22:00
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I see the talk has shifted to Valorous mail vs relic body +3.

I have nearly all the mats for Relic +3, but I'm wondering if it beats my valorous mail for low acc situations. It has +2 QA and +6 ACC. I know that's far from perfect, (have given up +5DA augs because the rest of the stats were negligible) but I don't know the math in terms of how much QA vs DA vs TA. No luck yet getting Dagon to drop.
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