The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

Yep! Caught me, I never programmed those toggles to work yet, I told myself to fix that way back when, just never got to it.

Your frailty #'s are a bit on the low side. It should be something like 41.8 with Idris, not counting Ecliptic/BoG/Bolster.

If you have significantly uncapped attack while using a WS with a 200% attack mod, you're clearly not WSing for damage, you're there simply to make a SC. So it honestly does not matter.

That's what I don't get about this whole discussion. If you're in a low buff situation on NIN, then you're in a group that doesn't value your damage, so what even is the point to maximizing it?

Like, that hypothetical scenario of a NIN being in such a low buff situation makes me think of Dynamis-sandy when you're pulling statues that are strong vs physical damage. I just open for the Corsairs, so I made a PDT melee set because my damage doesn't matter in that scenario, just gain TP and open for them.

There's almost no fight where you'll want to bring an extra DD getting no buffs and letting them WS. So either you're going to get buffs on NIN, you're there to open a SC for another DD, or you shouldn't be in the group as you WSing is only going to hinder kill speed. I'm really not seeing the point in going beyond Langly's "If you lack attack, Shun will do better, when you have attack, Ten does better" stance. In the end, your WS coverage will more heavily be decided by the DD you're with, as NIN seems to have solid WS damage, but doesn't compare to other DD's that can spike it harder.

It always matters. Remember killing things one second faster is so important that you can't possibly use anything less than the best possible.

I just did a bunch of D ambuscades, main damage source on NIN, without capped attack. Would've done a lot more damage if I cared enough to use an ideal set, could've saved minutes.

While I don't care, you guys sure seem to go bananas for saving seconds. Thats why you can't possibly use MNK for anything, gotta save those seconds!

Exactly on the sarcasm. The only time killing things a few seconds faster matters is in scenarios you're going to be fully buffed. So why are there pages of discussion of this? You don't need extra sets for low/mid buff scenarios, low/mid buff scenarios means you don't care about how quickly you kill, otherwise you'd make it a high buff scenario because THAT IS HOW STRATEGY WORKS.

Mid and/or low buff sets are important. Not everyone min/maxes. 1% don't need guides.

Low/mid GEAR sets are important, for showing the progression path to getting to the top. You don't need sets specifically tailored to low/mid buffs, though.

Those don't exist on here either, in case you didnt notice.

Everything that makes this a "guide" is gone.

This is now a "this is what I use you should use it and if you don't get on a different job "

And yes, you don't need MULTIPLE sets for low buffs. But to assume capped attack on literally everything is laughable.

Mid and/or low buff sets aren't important if you aren't min/maxing. Building additional sets is literally min/maxing. You are trying too hard.

There is no "gear for attack" set because doing so would be supercala-redonkdiculous-espeealadosis.

Increase Attack with a better party set-up and food. Gear for those things you can't get from support jobs or food.

If you can't do that, then Shun. By itself it will give you more Attack than any gear concession. Kikoku's aftermath will provide more Attack than most gear concessions, also.

Look, you've got people "doing this" because its "best" in your scenario.

They think it's still "best" in their(all) scenarios. It's not. You're only doing them a disservice.

Guides are employed to show how to get to the top of the mountain. They don't teach people how to walk. Those are therapists or care givers.

A meal guide will give you nutritional information, show you want to eat, what to avoid, yadda yadda, but it won't explain in agonizing detail how to chew or swallow.

There is a baseline and an assumption that you get yourself there before jumping into these "best in slot" sets.
You are confusing the efforts of the community authors with the FINAL FANTASY XI Official Strategy Guide (Brady Games).

Still trying way too hard.

The engaged gear sets have a beautiful bright blue disclaimer: Sets based on Haste Received - Assuming capped Accuracy and pDIF

The WS gear sets have their own disclaimer: Sets focus on fTP and WS Mods - No Acc Checks

Now, I don't know what people you are claiming to represent or SJW on their behalf, but if they are showing up in Herculean Gear: STR10+, Acc/Attk, WSD4~5% and you aren't giving them the right support, the only person doing them a disservice is you.

Would use herc for sure. 10wsd applies to both the magical and the physical portion of the ws. Also herc has ta 2 fora decent hybrid multiattack ws piece

Eiryl isn't wrong, and people are making weird *** assumptions about everything that isn't heavily buffed - leading to some legitimately bad decisions, like some of the Kikoku suggestions (it's almost never better than Heishi OR Kannagi) or figuring out when you REALLY might be better off using Shun over Ten.

If you really do everything on NIN with max buffs, fine. Load em up on the spreadsheet and gloat over your elite NIN damagez. I don't think that setup is the reality of what most of us here actually have on NIN in a lot of real world cases, and it's even less likely for people who aren't engaged in this vigorous discussion and are just reading a GUIDE to figure out what the hell they should be doing. Not unreasonable at all to me to take a look at what might change when using NIN with more modest buffs.


Thanks, yeah typo on my part on the Idris number. Should be 41.8%, not the 31.8% I had (and have now edited).

SO... Langly knew what he was doing, but I imagine a whole lot of people here were just using the spreadsheet and turning Frailty on, not realizing the default setting was Bolster strength. That leads to confusion at times, and is helping some of these incorrect assumptions.

[more RMEA talk below - and PLEASE, I'm not trying to fight about "my weapon is better", "no mine is". I'm just trying to have some intelligent discussion so we can all understand things better, instead of relying on ungrounded assumptions or flawed spreadsheet models. "LALALALALA HEISHI ONLY" is doing everyone a disservice, since it truly depends on how much you're getting buffed on NIN. Not all of us are Saevel with a trio of buffers backing us up on every melee job every time we attack a mob.]


So... adjusting the spreadsheet for
(a) actual GEO potency values with a 900 skill Dunna (see above),
(b) Apex Bhoot target (lv139 - seems about right for things like Dyna farming, D Intense Ambu, all but the hardest Aeonic NMs),
(c) Innin/Kakka/Berserk up (Innin/Kakka should always be up for a DD NIN, decided to do Berserk just because, left Sange off since it's not active most of the time anyway)

1) With heavy buffs - BRD COR GEO RDM (Dia 4, Marches/Minuets, Chaos/Samurai, Torpor/Frailty): Heishi/Ten wins easily, because Ten kicks *** with heavy buffs. Anyone who has been paying attention should be aware of this.

2) How about mid range buffs? Just bumping buffs down a little bit by dropping the COR and not assuming Dia III from RDM. So, we're running with BRD GEO support only (Dia 2, Marches/Minuets, Torpor/Frailty):

- Close call between Heishi/Ten and Kannagi/Hi, they're basically sidegrades. Heishi/Shun is behind them (not quite low enough buffs for Shun to matter)
- Note that I used the god-tier "TA+" Herc STR/WSD body/hands/feet augs on Langly's Ten set, resulting in a small advantage to Heishi. If you have slightly lesser augs (idk, STR+9/WSD+4% pieces), your Heishi/Ten is a little weaker and things may flip to a slight Kannagi edge (or maybe that just evens out Kannagi's slight DPS hit in reality from needing to pay more attention to Innin positioning and occasionally reapply AM3).
- I'd still recommend Heishi since it doesn't require dealing with Aftermath or Innin positioning (Innin should be a fairly minor distinction though, since both weapons want to maximize its benefits as much as possible in any case).

3) Lower buffs than #2? Kannagi/Hi starts pulling away from either Heishi/Shun and Ten. For Heishi, Shun eventually overtakes Ten when you're really starved for buffs.

For simplicity's sake, we'll say this scenario generally applies when you have:
(a) One buffer only
(b) COR+BRD and no GEO
(c) Assumes not using GEO 1hr

(note that a single GEO, especially with Idris, may be sufficient to get into scenario #2 territory IF you have the GEO doing Atk+ and Def- (i.e., they don't have to use Haste bubble, Acc is fine, no need for a defensive bubble, etc.)

4) Kikoku/Metsu? People are saying a lot that Kikoku is good in really low buffs - and this needs to be reevaluated a bit. It really only compares to Heishi/Shun when you have VERY low buffs, and in those cases Kannagi/Hi trashes both. I could see someone using Kikoku in a really low buff scenario if you're getting more SC utility out of Metsu though. So, while Kikoku is arguably the easiest/cheapest of the three RMEA DPS options, it's the most limited in use. Still a big step up from non-RMEA though, and it's a respectable weapon although rarely going to be a better call than Heishi or Kannagi.

Analysis:
If you assume all fights you do with NIN have GEO/BRD/COR and buffs never drop? Yeah, there's no reason for you to ever touch anything but Heishi/Ten.

If you're at mid-level buffs (let's say 2 buffers), Heishi/Ten or Kannagi/Hi are both fine and perform very well - exactly which one wins is so dependent on target/buffs/gear that it's fair enough to call them sidegrades. Heishi/Shun isn't too far back.

If you are at lower than 2 buffers, or any buffs drop, it's likely that Kannagi is the best choice. Heishi and Kikoku compete for second place, with Heishi winning more often than not (unless Metsu SCs are helpful).

Remember that even when you're running with a couple supports, you can lose your ideal buffs for a number of reasons. People here seem to like to assume none of this happens, which blows my mind.
- Berserk goes down or you don't want to use due to risk?
- COR forgets to Light Shot a Dia II (or Dia drops altogether)?
- GEO has a Luopon get killed or has to use a different buff (Wilt/Fade/Vex, Haste, whatever)? There are LOTS of reasons that you won't get the ideal spreadsheet buffs during the course of a fight.

This is a pretty precipitous dropoff for Heishi/Ten in particular, and can change things quickly to where in situations like the mid-buff scenario #2 above, losing Berserk or lacking one of the desired GEO buffs for some time can totally change the results and Heishi won't be your best weapon. Eventually you DO want to change WS and start using more Shun (or Hi), but it's really not a great situation for Heishi to be in once you're lacking enough in buffs that Shun becomes a better WS choice (aside from using it for SC reasons).

Agreed!
Granted simulations have their limits too, I find they're much more accurate to describe damage over time values.

Spreadsheets are much more limited in that, especially when people try to compare values from different jobs/different spreadsheets.

Where Ssheets shine imo is in the fact they're quick and simple in evaluating, once a specific scenario is defined, which pieces are better for a WS, for example.
Or they help going against personal bias on stats you might underestimate, for instance it happened to me several times that I was underestimating STP because "meh, I don't have an Xhit build", whereas sometimes even a small amount of additional STP can create differences bigger than you'd imagine.

Granted that, as I already said, I consider such a situation of greatly uncapped attack uncommon and not particularly interesting, I agree with you.

When you are SEVERILY lacking attack buffs, even Shun's multiplier won't do miracles.
When I tested it a couple of days ago, it requires a certain minimum (granted it's not much) of attack for Shun's multiplier to actually produce a big enough increase.

I said you are slightly overestimating Kannagi's potential Capuchin, but I feel a lot of people in here are underestimating how big of a difference it can create in a scenario like the one you described.
It's really really big guys.
Now that scenario is imo very unlikely to happen, but that's another story I guess xD


For instance Capuchin there's another thing you probably haven't considered when soloing. That's multistep Radiance!
It can produce really big damage, and this doesn't get measured by the spreadsheet.
Now of course you could do something similar with Kannagi too (without Radiance of course, stopping at L3 Darkness I guess?) but that wouldn't be anywhere as efficient as doing that with Heishi, for instance.

That's fair, and you're right that spreadsheets are notoriously poor at reflecting skillchains. On the other hand, there's also some value in Kikoku and Kannagi both having simple 2-step darkness while just spamming their arguably "best" WS, Metsu-Metsu or Hi-Hi (not to discount that Heishi opens up Shun-Shun SCs, which also have high value).

Hell, sometimes the main reason I take my Kikoku out is simply because I'm in a party with people spamming WS that won't be convinced to set up a consistent SC. In that case, Metsu is often an easier WS to just throw out there to SC nicely with tons of stuff - I get so many random light/darkness with that, whereas using another WS might result in considerably less forced SC damage.


When we're talking likelihood of scenarios, it's my experience that people doing the full super buffed melee party are probably prioritizing jobs that aren't NIN in the first place (and I don't blame them, that's how I'd build the party too). So when NIN does make an appearance, I tend to feel it's not all that shocking to see less than ideal GEO/COR/BRD buffs.

So, a few things not addressed by the "new" analysis are the same things spreadsheets have already been stated to be poor at calculating, which is why most don't use any spreadsheet to calculate DPS but do use them to compare weapon skill performances.

1) DPS lost by maintaining aftermath.
2) DPS lost when aftermath is down. I believe Sechs brought this up a few pages back when recommending that 30% be used rather than 50%.
3) All of that Innin degradation nonsense from a few pages earlier.

Getting deeper into the weeds...
Is your #3 worse or better than trusts buffs? I ask this, because it looks like it is just when you don't have a GEO. That could be a useful baseline for others, I guess... If your server lacks GEOs and you are doing melee-friendly content, Kannagi might be a consideration for you. I don't know when in the real world that might happen, though. Does anyone even do Sinister Reign without a GEO?

Lastly, Kikoku. It will lose if you are fighting a wall that survives the duration of Kannagi's aftermath. But as LoH pointed out above, if doing something with so few buffs, the targets chosen are likely not to be lasting more than one weapon skill/skill chain. Aftermath isn't negligible here, but it isn't a constant stream of DPS, either, so which weapon gives the bigger weapon skill damage, tipping a target into 0 HP faster is a larger consideration than which has the higher DoT, for lack of a better term.
If Hi gets to step back out of the shadows, Heishi/Kannagi will become a thing.

Basically, I find the idea of fighting ilvl 139 targets with insufficient buffs flawed. It is like ye olde XP parties where players (NAs mostly) would spend a lot of time fighting one IT++ while another group would mow down several Ts.
My take away from this is, if you want to spend a lot of gil on a weapon that performs best when everything else is wrong... Okay.

If you really want to breakdown weapon performance by buffs, I'd recommend showing the numbers and also doing it this way:
1) High buffs/Zerg (not necessary to do, all agree here)
2) BLU, COR, GEO, BRD, Dia II/Unafraid of the Dark - No SPs (likely not necessary, either, but a RL example of a NIN niche)
3) GEO, BRD, Dia II (rolls busted)
4) GEO, COR, Dia II (songs down)
5) GEO (duoing with a friend, so maybe Indi-only if running around a lot)
6) Trusts

Maybe show the results with and without Idris.
Anyway, that's what I would do if I wanted to try to change some minds.

This made me laugh.

NIN tends not to be taken as a serious DD even when showing up with REMA weapons, AF3, REL3, 50%-70% WSD total Herc augs. Instead of being asked to radiance spam or open/close with Blade Ten or Shun, other DD will ask, can you Blade Retsu or Blade Kamu so we can sc?

Thus, if not having the right support is a disservice,
then having the right support but being told to dumb down your ws is an injustice!
--------
Moving on to the bigger picture...

Having parsing data on NIN DD gear sets is both a good thing and an unintentional curse.

GOOD because it helps aspiring NIN develop DD gear sets. It also helps other DD classes and support see what kind of damage a well geared NIN is capable. Why should NIN be confined to Blade Retsu or Blade Kamu so other DD can SC when a well geared NIN is perfectly able to perform radiance SCs or devastating Blade Tens?

CURSE because it helps aspiring NIN focus on the DD aspect of NIN only. Thus, in scenarios like endeath bosses, or AOE stun Dynamis [D] bosses, NIN is about as useless as other heavier DD who are dead or stunned most of the time.

Even 15 year FFXI veterans fall into the epeen mindset and wouldn't be able to multi-task/tank/enfeeble/MB on NIN.

The epeen attitude is not the fault of the guide/parse authors. It's just wishful, shortsighted populace mentality that bigger is better without gauging other factors. Hyperbole (perfect scenario) over ambience (resistance, turbulence, damn missing tank and the only other tank is the geo!).

It takes a lot of dedication to gauge different conditions, monster types, support and trust scale-up dependent on the amount of real players in a party versus trusts. (Thank you authors and commentators.)

LS and party leaders need to be aware of how hyperbole factors in with ambience to make the most of what is available.

Hell I've duo'd SR as NIN w/a BLU.

I think if I really wanted to spam Hi with my Heishi, I'd strongly consider offhanding Taka over Kannagi (costs and difficulty to obtain them aside)

You guys are making aftermath seem like it's a lot harder to maintain than it actually is. 3000tp AM lasts 3x as long as 1000tp AM, and is considerably more potent (50% ODT versus 30% ODT). There is zero reason for any empy user, on any empy weapon, to not try to maintain AM3 at nearly all times.

There is some amount of downtime if you need to build initial TP, and to reapply 3000tp AM3. But really, any decently skilled player should be able to quickly get the hang of timing it so you're only out a few seconds of AM3 time when reapplying - especially on a relatively fast TP gain job like NIN (which even has a quick TP burst JA on the same 3min timer as Empy AM3 duration, fancy that!). People are over inflating the difficulty here.


Trust buffs definitely never rise to the level of the mid-buff scenario #2. Also, if you're doing anything solo, the only Trust GEO (Sylvie, who you can't have if you want to go for Yoran or something) uses Indi-Haste/Indi-Regen if called by a NIN.

Idris GEO alone would prob push you into the "mid tier" buffs category, assuming they're using both of Frailty/Fury (so, no need for Haste, Acc, defensive bubbles) or Bolster - which is still where we're talking about roughly sidegrade performance from the top 2 weapons. A Dunna/900 GEO probably won't be enough in most cases (aside from Bolster/BoG), aside from clawing up to the low end of "mid-range" buffs that don't clearly favor Heishi anyway.

Basically, to really assume you have the buffs needed to make Heishi/Ten the clear winner, reasonable rule of thumb is that you need 2 buffers, one of which should be a GEO who isn't using defensive bubbles. BRD+COR or any single buffer doesn't really seem to be enough to give a major advantage. Yes, it's a little fuzzy due to the variance of not being able to predict the EXACT situation for every case (in which case, the spreadsheet is here for everyone to play with).

I have had a Kikoku for a long time, I know it well. Kannagi easily beats it in DPS in almost all situations. It's trivial for me to run a short parse for any situation trying each weapons and otherwise equal buffs/targets/etc, including situations with downtime between weaker mobs. I practically never see anything but a significant Kannagi advantage. Even if you made no attempt to maintain AM3 Empy AM, and simply used Hi at 1000+ TP (which there's no reason to do unless you just don't use Empys correctly), Kannagi is better DPS.

Like I said, I really just use Kikoku when Metsu might work better for SC purposes.

Anyone who would suggest Kikoku is a better choice than Kannagi outside of rare situations is operating under incorrect assumptions. Hell, before I had a Kannagi *I* probably helped create those incorrect assumptions.

Why would you say that? This is the kind of weird assumption that's backed up by no facts that I was talking about earlier.

Hi gets fairly little out of TP Bonus, so Heishi's main draw is not doing much for the WS. Unless they radically change the impact of TP Bonus on the WS, if you're interested in Hi, you'd be way better off with Kannagi mainhand in any situation I could imagine JUST from a non-Aftermath Blade: Hi perspective (with a low delay AGI+ offhand like Taka, Ternion+1, etc.). Add Aftermath, even if badly utilized, and it's a no brainer.


Let's put it another way. People all over this thread have been regurgitating that if your Heishi Blade: Ten damage is bad, you can switch to Shun. Everyone seems to be cool with that. If your buffs are ever bad enough that Shun is a better damage option than Ten, then you're already in the territory where Kannagi/Hi is a better option than Heishi and either Shun or Ten.

IDK, I just find people particularly resistant to Empyrean weapons in general. It hasn't lined up with my experience in practice - my eyes were actually opened more with our ranged people and Armageddon/Gandiva performing in real world situations better than I would have expected them to. I finished off my old 90 Kannagi mostly out of curiosity to play around with it too, and I've been pleasantly surprised.

Especially on a job with so many mainhand swings and so mamy crits, people are really underrating the 50% chance of triple damage mainhand swings (which ARE a steady flow of additional TP that doesn't require ideal WS timing, the biggest flaw to me of spreadsheet math). It adds up to many WS worth of additional white damage over even a fight that just lasts a few minutes. I know that's not the conventional 2018 meta, but I think it's something people are undervaluing.


My posts are long enough as-is. The spreadsheet is on the first page of the guide. Download it, put correct GEO spell values in (instead of assuming Bolster on every Frailty!), and test whatever situation you actually find yourself in.

For making Umbra skill chain on Nin. Heishi mainhand with Kannagi offhand allows access to Umbra.

Can you do that with any offhand?

Have a hard time seeing Kannagi AGI+50 outweighing other offhand options that are better for TP generation. But IDK, I'm open to being proven wrong.

Yeah, we can both push the boundaries of how large a post should be. At least yours are more on point than my own. I tend to wander... But I'll try to unpack a response in a way that is short and therefore manageable if you need to go long.

Having to maintain aftermath is generally clunky. Whether a JA burst is available or not, it still requires a target to be alive and with enough HP at just the right time. Or a user will have to hold TP as something near death finally gets put down so they can more optimally start the next battle with reapplication.
I suspect these situations right here largely explain the 50/50 melee/weapon skill damage ratio that you experience with Kannagi.

The other factor is weapon skill damage, which is why I recommend sharing your numbers. Your results may well be duplicated by using the same spreadsheet, but comparing the results has great value.
50/50 is a really low ratio. Sure, one can take that and assume the melee damage is really high! But what it says to most here is that the weapon skill damage is pitifully low.
I'm less concerned with comparing Heishi to Kannagi than I am Kikoku to Kannagi. Kikoku still deals triple damage, but at a lesser rate, has more attack and a weapon skill with a more favorable mod, that, although it can't critical naturally, gets its own 40% boost. Being tied to Blade: Hi is a stinker. As you've said, better than it was, but still...

If Blade: Hi weren't so unfortunate, Heishi/Kannagi would become a thing because:
A) Mainhand Heishi offers incredible flexibility. Remember, we aren't aiming for a ratio of 50/50.
B) Heishi would offer slightly higher base damage and additional crit rate at lower TP while still benefiting from the 50 AGI of Kannagi in the offhand.
I mean, it is no different than how Twashtar is used to super power its sibling Aeonic. But Blade: Hi isn't a thing sought after in this way.

To your last point, I feel the general consensus is more along the lines of "If your Ten damage is bad, fix your buffs. If you can't do that (buffers have disconnected or something), then switch to another weapon skill that will work better in the meantime." In the event rolls bust, songs drop, haste wears, Dia isn't cast quickly so GEO benefits aren't applying, whatever, the answer for most isn't to swap weapons, and then swap back when things are back in order. The answer should simply be to adjust for the 1-10 seconds it takes to get back in sync.

Dont think so.

Offhand has nothing to do with anything as far as ws access and/or umbra/radiance go

and offhand kannagi is just silly, maybe in a very specific scenario you could make it win, but I'm skeptical

So you can make Umbra with just Heishi?

Yes

for someone that keeps telling others about how wrong they are for not owning the weapon you sure don’t know ***even with owning them.

Ya got me :]

Yhen again, I dont even have Ku.

It doesnt matter what your offhand is. Umbra / Radiance goes off in place of the Double Light/Dark.

So instead of Ku--->Retsu(Dist)-->Hi(Darkness)--->Hi(Darkness/Umbra)
Hi-->Hi(Umbra/Darkness) w/ AM3

Tbh I'd only ever offhand Kannagi(if I had one) w/ Nagi, but Taka might be a little better because it offers something other than just AGI and its not like its hard to get AGI anyway