The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-05-15 20:01:47
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You guys take ***to a whole nuther level of what the ***.

My point was that not EVERY single fight was going to be the capped attack fights they're assumed to be. 100% of the time.

No buffs, low buffs, mid buffs should all be basically identical. There are only 2 states of combat, capped as ***, and broke as ***.

But being uncapped on attack is a valid state of play that exists more than 0% of the time.

Set A) attack matters, Set B) Attack doesn't matter, Set C) NQ's/Alternatives (I don't even think this set is really necessary, Alternatives should be obvious)
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 Lakshmi.Lenus
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By Lakshmi.Lenus 2018-05-16 00:18:37
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The last time I played this game, kannagi was actually falling behind kikoku. As much as I tried to love the weapon, it wasn't performing as well as people gave it props for. I've had my fair share of parses against byrth switching between heishi, nagi, kikoku and kannagi. Luckily Kannagi wasn't the worse out of the 4! But wasn't the best either :P If it had dex or str as a base stat for the weapon/ws then it might be a better weapon. But its trash
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-05-16 01:40:30
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Lakshmi.Lenus said: »
The last time I played this game, kannagi was actually falling behind kikoku.
That sounds a bit extreme and the fruit of people influencing each other on forums and creating bias.

While it could be true, I doubt Kannagi was ever that bad since the post adoulin reforges.
Regardless, like I said before in the last 1+ year several new items got added that specifically make Blade: Hi take a leap forward in terms of damage.
Check Mummu gear for instance.
Thanks to that Blade: Hi damage is much, much better than it was before.
There has been other gear added for other WSs as well recently, obviously, but it doesn't create such a massive leap forward as some of the other gear I'm talking about did for Hi.

It's true the Agi on Blade: Hi hurts its damage potential in the long run. But hey! It gives a small boost to Daken damage I guess? lol
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-05-16 01:45:21
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
But being uncapped on attack is a valid state of play that exists more than 0% of the time.
It's what we discussed a few pages ago while giving, hopefully constructive, feedback to Langly.

I agree with that, being uncapped att on stuff that matters is more common than many people in here want to make it look like.
In my opinion it's actually the most common situation. You're gonna have a wide array of bunch, you're gonna be acc capped, you're gonna have of course your good amount of att, but you won't be capped.

Which is exactely why I was suggesting to take into consideration the "mid-buff" situation for WS sets as well, in addition to the "acc/att capped" one.
As I told Langly before I reckon it can be hard and arbitrary to define a "mid buff" situation. How many buffs? Which? Potency? Against which target?

But in the end I don't think it's that relevant. As long as you're not capped and as long as the guide-owner decides parameters, exposes them and stands by them for all of the WSs, it's gonna be fine and useful, imo.
 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-05-16 09:13:05
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Asura.Eiryl said: »
But being uncapped on attack is a valid state of play that exists more than 0% of the time.

As I told Langly before I reckon it can be hard and arbitrary to define a "mid buff" situation. How many buffs? Which? Potency? Against which target?
To be honest and im not trying to sound mean at all but he shouldnt have to make multiple sets for low att, mid att and so on.

Anyone playing any DD job on relevant/semi rel content should have some sort of idea where theyre at based on on buffs and make the choice themselves on whether is it really worth making a low attack set etc etc; however I do realize that some people may have never had the max metsu dps buffs to know where they really start to peak at and gauge what they need

tldr:get kikoku
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-05-16 09:34:59
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Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
To be honest and im not trying to sound mean at all but he shouldnt have to make multiple sets for low att, mid att and so on.
Not sure I agree.
Going by those lines you could extend the logic to every other aspect and get to the conclusion that no guide is necessary at all.

Personally, while I understand and agree you gotta put a limit somewhere in a guide, I don't see things from your perspective.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-05-16 10:57:40
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Asura.Sechs said: »
I agree with that, being uncapped att on stuff that matters is more common than many people in here want to make it look like.
In my opinion it's actually the most common situation. You're gonna have a wide array of bunch, you're gonna be acc capped, you're gonna have of course your good amount of att, but you won't be capped.

When damage really matters it will be otherwise your failing badly. Buff selection scales with target content difficulty, you don't attempt to melee T4's without Bolster Idris Frailty + Dia II.

On the low end, nobody gives a rats *** about what someone does soloing CL124~128 content.

So we are left with a middle ground, spamming CL130~140 where relying on SP's isn't feasible. That's where that buff selection I listed was, NQ Frailty + Dia II + some attack buffs is sufficient to cap on most on that mid grade content, maybe not all the time if you got a bad roll or something gets dispelled, but generally you should be near cap.

38.3% defense down (NQ Frailty + Dia II)
Target monster has 1500 defense (on the high end but not T4 level high)

1500 * .617 = 925 defense
Average cap is reached at 925 * 3.25 = 3000 attack
Absolute cap is reached at 925 * 3.625 = 3353 attack

That number is easily reachable with Berserk, Chaos, NQ Fury and a Min V.

Berserk = +25%
NQ Fury = +48.2%
+5 Chaos Roll = 40.6% ~ 53.1%, with Job bonus 50.3% ~ 62.8%
Valorous Minuet V with NQ whistle is +210 attack.

That will hit 3000 attack on a crappy geared Ninja with no food or vorseals. There are no special JA's being used, no BoG, no Cutting Cards, no Marcato, this is worst case scenario that anyone can reach. The moment you introduce players who actually give a damn, that value shoots up.

Honor March, something that's not terribly difficult to get, is a game changer as it effectively adds three songs to the BRD. Regel necklace, another not terribly difficult item to get is a big buff to COR, and then there is Idris which is in a league of it's own. I excluded these because I wanted to show what a bottom end group of players could do if they actually tried.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-05-16 12:03:44
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I dunno Saevel. Sure on T4 you zerg them, as with every zerg setup you gonna be att capped.
But stuff where you're not zerging?
Pretty confident a lot of jobs are not capped in Dynamis Divergence a good enough amount of time, to name one.
No big deal, stuff dies in 2-3 WS even if you're uncapped, but why should we ignore those situations?
Why should we ignore when after something goes wrong your GEO is dead and cannot be close because AoE will kill him for 3+ minutes?
Your GEO DCs? Your BRD goes mia?

Or Ambuscade. I can think of multiple Ambuscade VD where because of strange mechanics (cannot apply Frailty) or job limitations (just 6 slot) or necessary defensive buffs (carols, scherzo, w/e) you won't be attack capped. You will have a good amount of att, you will probably be close to cap, but you won't be at cap.

I can think about a wide amount of situations where people in my LS are not capped when we're doing non-zerg LS events.
I can understand this is not your situation, and I'm also sure it's not the situation of many other groups.
At the same time though it is undoubtely the situation of many other groups.
Judging this with a simple "you're doing it wrong" would be overly simplistic if you ask me, it's like being blind and refusing to see something that is happening pretty regularly.

Just my two cents, of course.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-05-16 12:08:31
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Standard NINJA party is not BRD COR GEO.

Standard party gets one of them.

Your LS lets you have a hyper inflated self worth with 3 buff slaves where ever you go. This is not how the majority play. The people that actually need guidance.
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-05-16 12:10:40
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I won't dispute that non attack capped situations exist. Even if you have a GEO, situations where you move around a lot (Dynamis, Omen, etc.) will mean your buffs aren't up on a fairly regular basis. That said, adding some uncapped attack sets to the guide shouldn't be expected. When someone asks for what the best is, you can only give them an answer based on an underlying set of assumptions. The baseline for all of the other guides is capped attack/accuracy. NIN shouldn't be any different.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-05-16 12:13:06
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If it's a guide for people that would actually use a guide then they should be expected.

If it's a thread for only the best then there needs be only one set with maximum haste. (because everyone plays exactly the same, right)

Multiple haste tiers exist for a reason, as should uncapped attack set.

For the same reason your haste won't be absolute max, your attack won't always be capped.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-05-16 12:29:47
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Rather than go to extreme lengths to build, display and maintain additional sets for multiple circumstances in an effort to spoon feed more information to "guide users" that can't digest what is already here, why not make a reference site that defines the benefits from every buff in the game so these same "guide users" can have the opportunity to learn a little and reverse-engineer sets that meet their individual, highly specialized needs.

Oh wait.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-05-16 12:32:50
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Fenrir.Snaps said: »
adding some uncapped attack sets to the guide shouldn't be expected.
Personally I don't expect it and I sure wouldn't even think to demand it! Not to Langly who's incredibly nice, not to anyone else.
Mine was just a suggestion.
I honestly think it would be useful for a lot of people to have sets for "midbuff" situation, but I'm not really particularly troubled by the lack thereof in the guide in the end :D
I mean, by the same logic I don't get why it's instead expected to be acc/att capped, but it's not expected to be always haste capped?
All DW guides that I can think of list multiple TP sets for different haste values.


Quote:
NIN shouldn't be any different.
I agree, but personally I have the same opinion for every job/every guide, granted that some jobs of course have it easier than others at reaching attack cap.
Mine was a general point, not specifically for NIN only.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2018-05-16 12:44:21
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Asura.Sechs said: »
All DW guides that I can think of list multiple TP sets for different haste values.

I think this is for two different reasons:
1) The values are basically static. We know that wearing X with Y spells = Z Haste always.
2) To reduce the quantity of questions relating to these values choking up the thread.

Target defense plays into how much attack a player will need. Target speed has nothing to do with how much haste a player will need.

So, back to these mid-attack sets... Would a guide designer need to make sets labeled: HQ set with D/C'd GEO, HQ set with malfunctioning BRD lua, NQ set with pity Idris GEO helper?
If anything, I guess every guide could have a section that itemizes the totals, like Saevel has done, of common buffs and ilvl target stats, so readers can make their own calculations. But adding more sets is an unsustainable solution.
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-05-16 12:44:51
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
If it's a guide for people that would actually use a guide then they should be expected.

If it's a thread for only the best then there needs be only one set with maximum haste. (because everyone plays exactly the same, right)

Multiple haste tiers exist for a reason, as should uncapped attack set.

For the same reason your haste won't be absolute max, your attack won't always be capped.

Haste is different because there are non-arbitrary tiers based on the buffs you can receive. Your buffs also fall off at various points and gearswap can easily detect this. So there's actually practical value with these sets even in capped conditions. With attack, your marginal gains depend on the mobs debuff adjusted defense. We literally don't know these values for most relevant mobs and even if we did selecting defense values to build sets around would be mostly arbitrary. If you're concerned about attack sets you should also be equally (if not more) concerned about accuracy sets. You're looking at a huge matrix of sets based on various conditions that are going to change every update.

That's not a reasonable expectation to have in a guide.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-05-16 12:48:09
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You're being ridiculous again.

There doesn't need be be 16,000 sets. Just an uncapped attack set.

You give people unrealistic scenarios for the people that actually need a guide. Attack on gear matters more often then it doesn't.

If you can have five haste sets, surely you can be bothered to do a single "holy ***I don't have 8 songs and 4 rolls set"
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-05-16 12:53:42
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The average player arguably does not really care about having 3-5 different attack up/down sets. They might have a DW set for low/non-haste, and they have their tp set, fc, magical nuke, acc, and ws sets. We are venturing into technical aspects of min-maxing that any ordinary player would probably not have the interest in totally. I don't think the suggestion to have a variety of attack sets actually speaks for the average low-key player who just wants to "do more damage". Its more of the 'seasoned' players' request for the sake of completeness. Not saying its a bad idea totally, but it's not something of high importance that your typical weekend warrior NIN would be worried about.

And to think this all started with a guy asking for help improving his blade: ten damage. I doubt a player in his position would make a whole new set of herc/abj etc gear to accomodate a few extra scenarios while fighting on NIN.
 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2018-05-16 13:37:01
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When I set out to readjust and revitalize the guide I took a look at a lot of existing guides and stuck with the idea that I was going to chase the maximum output for Ninja.

Then I got to thinking, why not build sets for all content? I'm generally someone who really enjoys min-maxing in my Ninja Lua so I can smugly give my friends ***when I out damage them. But I got to a point where using the spreadsheet was not time effective. I was looking for break points for gearsets at different acc levels/cRatio levels/fSTR levels/haste levels and it became grotesquely intimidating. Perhaps we need a better utility to determine damage output. I greatly welcome Austar to finish their simulation so I can dive into it and double check what I've concluded. I do not have the time to program one myself.

I looked at it.. a bit like this:


I then realized that everything below a theoretical 'max' should be a derivative process. We have access to things like Scoreboard that can tell us our melee avgs, ws avgs, amounts, crit rates, and acc. We're able to make changes to our gear depending on scenario.

If there's some concrete abstraction for where in that middle area a set should be made, I'm all ears. I couldn't responsibly find one. Part of me even dislikes the "NQ/HQ" type split because I shouldn't make assumptions about what people have access to.

If you want to PM me, my inbox is open. I'm still here to make the guide better. :)
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-05-16 14:23:20
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
You're being ridiculous again.

There doesn't need be be 16,000 sets. Just an uncapped attack set.

You give people unrealistic scenarios for the people that actually need a guide. Attack on gear matters more often then it doesn't.

If you can have five haste sets, surely you can be bothered to do a single "holy ***I don't have 8 songs and 4 rolls set"

You're either missing the point or just deliberately obtuse. 'Uncapped attack' is not specific enough to optimize around. The best gear for when you're 1 attack under cap is not the same as when you're 1000 under attack cap. You can't provide a clear answer on anything but the boundaries which is why the guides generally always have sets for these. How useful is an 'uncapped attack' set if you're unable to define what that is? And again, if you think attack is worth publishing sets for, than why not accuracy? It's just as important, if not more.

Either way, if this is something you want than the onus is on you. It's not Langly or anybody else's job to come up with sets for you. The sense of entitlement here is overwhelming. You've literally done nothing on these forums but whine so why don't you do it.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-05-16 14:33:37
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You're being purposely regoddamndiculous.

No one wants a set for 1000 attack 1001 attack 1002 attack 1003 attack 1004 attack 1005 attack 1006 attack 1007 attack 1008 attack 1009 attack 1010 attack.

if attack matters, it matters. whether you're 1 under, or 1000 under.
If it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

I don't even play ninja. My gearsets for ninja consist of "i can hit the *** mob, and holy ***I cant hit the *** mob" that's it.

Just making the point that this "we're attack capped all the time on everything" idea, is complete ***.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-05-16 14:41:34
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If you want to make a GUIDE its a GUIDE

If you want to make it "ONLY PLAY NINJA THIS EXACT WAY WITH GEO COR AND BARD AND ONLY WITH PERFECT BUFFS"

Call it that.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-05-16 14:42:06
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
You're being purposely regoddamndiculous.

I'm really not though, I've just thought about it more than you. I'm not the only person here stating this opinion either. Go take a look at Langly's most recent post where he explains the same concept, and even includes a picture.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-05-16 14:48:35
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All anyone wants is an "if attack matters" set.

It doesn't have to be the bis for "every single scenario" set.

NINJA will be uncapped (by varying degrees) way more often than capped. There should be A SINGLE SET minimum that reflects this.

You've got people running around in full ken+1 thinking its amazing when they have no Bard because "guide said its dabess"
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2018-05-16 15:03:35
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
All anyone wants is an "if attack matters" set.

It doesn't have to be the bis for "every single scenario" set.

NINJA will be uncapped (by varying degrees) way more often than capped. There should be A SINGLE SET minimum that reflects this.

You've got people running around in full ken+1 thinking its amazing when they have no Bard because "guide said its dabess"

No, that's what you're asking for. You don't speak for everybody and you've yet to define exactly what this "if attack matters" condition is.
 Bahamut.Alexcennah
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By Bahamut.Alexcennah 2018-05-16 15:42:41
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
And to think this all started with a guy asking for help improving his blade: ten damage.

This discussion is pointless because Ten only shines with lots of buffs. Shun in other hand is very powerful in low buffs scenarios thanks to its massive attack bonus. This simple advice would have stopped this all:


If you're far from the attack cap don't use Ten, use Shun instead.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-05-16 17:58:41
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Snaps I don't think anybody was asking for 2000 different sets to take into account every possible attack uncapped situation.
Just take one that's somewhere in the middle.
Where exactely? The author decides.
Its purpose would be that to give a generic direction, an example and, most of all, it would save time.

For instance each time I have to decide for my sets and I take into account att uncapped (because I do) it requires me a lot of work until I decide an "average" between what I decide works best for me.
It's me doing the decision, but someone who shared all this data before me in a place where I could read, would save me tons of time.
This is just an example of course.
I did this work recently, in a very confusing way, for BRD if we wanna tak an example.
For Mordant Rime what is the best set in capped acc/att situations is not very realistical to use because those items have either no acc at all or very low acc.
Plus good luck capping att on BRD outside of zerg situations.
Which means in the majority of situations where you dd on BRD you will be far from attack capped, which also implies you gonna have to decide where to put some attack, in which slot, at which cost, in place of what.
You can't go AF+3 in 5/5 slots for instance.
Now NIN is in a different position of course but the logic is still the same. If I'm not capped, why should I lower my WS output by using pieces that are not ideal, when I could be using a couple of different items that maybe I already own and that would make my WSDMG output higher?
Of course "everybody can understand on their own which items to swap". Well if everybody could do that they wouldn't be using the guide to begin with, would they?


Any way, this was meant to be a kind and constructive suggestion, not a demand in any form.
I think it's more than reasonable that the owner and mantainer of the guide decides what to do about his guide. I respect his decision and apreciate the tons of work he put unto the guide.
The fact I see things differently on this specific matter doesn't make me "right" (or wrong! for that matter).
I think we can stop the discussion here, I suggest we all do, doubt this will bring us anywhere useful :x
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-05-16 17:59:51
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Bahamut.Alexcennah said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
And to think this all started with a guy asking for help improving his blade: ten damage.

This discussion is pointless because Ten only shines with lots of buffs. Shun in other hand is very powerful in low buffs scenarios thanks to its massive attack bonus. This simple advice would have stopped this all:


If you're far from the attack cap don't use Ten, use Shun instead.

And what should you wear in a shun set, with uncapped attack? No where to be found in the guide.

Fenrir.Snaps said: »
No, that's what you're asking for. You don't speak for everybody and you've yet to define exactly what this "if attack matters" condition is.

I'm not asking for anything. I'm making the point that the people reading the guide, ya know the people it's INTENDED for, don't realize they most like AREN'T getting 2 Bolstered Geos with 8 songs and 4 rolls.

But they still think they're capped attack because the way these "guides" (and I use "guide" VERY LOOSELY) are represented.
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 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-05-16 18:26:32
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While we're on the WS topic.

Blade: Teki/To/Chi
Just eyeballing do you guys think Leylines max > Herc hands w/ CHR10 WSD 10?
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-05-16 18:31:46
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Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Perhaps we need a better utility to determine damage output. I greatly welcome Austar to finish their simulation so I can dive into it and double check what I've concluded. I do not have the time to program one myself.
I haven't had a lot of free time lately with work and school. it is on my list of things to do, though, and I should have more time available soon, but most of my free time I try to take advantage of the CP campaign atm.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-05-16 18:36:57
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Question... do people realize that most of the GEO spells in the NIN spreadsheet linked on page 1 of this guide have strange default values assigned? The normal Frailty/Torpor values are assuming almost Bolster/BoG strength.

Am I missing something obvious (i.e. was this just a shortcut for assuming Bolster because the Bolster toggle doesn't actually do anything)? Have you all been basing your spreadsheet calculations on seriously inaccurate buff values or misunderstood assumptions??

Spreadsheet lists potencies of:
Frailty: 60% Def Down
Torpor: 200 Eva Down
Precision: 75 Acc Up
Fury: 48.2% Att up

The actual non-Bolster/BoG potencies are:
Frailty: 28.3%/41.8% Def Down (Dunna/Idris)
Torpor: 75/100 Eva Down (Dunna/Idris)
Precision: 75/100 Acc (Dunna/Idris)
Fury: 48.2%/61.7% Atk (Dunna/Idris)

Bahamut.Alexcennah said: »
If you're far from the attack cap don't use Ten, use Shun instead.[/b]

This is too simple though. How far is "far from the attack cap"? The answer is that it's not just uncapped attack, it's severely uncapped attack. If you have Frailty OR Fury OR Berserk OR Chaos Roll (or any combination of multiple of those): Ten is still probably better if you have a really good WS set.

Also remember that Ten relies a lot on augmented gear. If you don't actually have the Spreadsheet god tier Herc STR+10/WSD+5%/Acc+25/Atk+25 pieces, Shun might still beat Ten even with a bit more than the above buffs (e.g. maybe you need two of the above listed buffs instead of one).
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