Borealis VS Caladbolg(90)

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Borealis VS Caladbolg(90)
 Fenrir.Curty
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By Fenrir.Curty 2012-09-20 10:57:28
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Asura.Jem said: »
It isn't a wrong assumption as using a Dusty Wing for TP at capped haste is a net loss in damage (or at least that is what I have been led to believe by people who mathed it out)

Really a 3240 loss in damage though? Debatable.
 Odin.Creaucent
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By Odin.Creaucent 2012-09-20 10:58:24
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Asura.Jem said: »
It isn't a wrong assumption as using a Dusty Wing for TP at capped haste is a net loss in damage.

This. On many an occasion i have pressed my dusty wing macro and the delay was long enough, from pressing marco and item starting, to get 90+ tp. Thats with LR up, marches and haste and apoc instead of rag.
 Siren.Fupafighters
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By Siren.Fupafighters 2012-09-20 11:08:38
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Press the macro half way through the current ws.
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 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2012-09-20 11:11:33
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Asura.Jem said: »
It isn't a wrong assumption as using a Dusty Wing for TP at capped haste is a net loss in damage (or at least that is what I have been led to believe by people who mathed it out)
totally different for Cala where the AM is actually useful and you just want to pop a wing to get AM3 up.
 Fenrir.Ghostknight
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By Fenrir.Ghostknight 2012-09-20 11:34:00
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Asura.Jem said: »
The bottom line is Calad needs absolutely everything in its favour to beat Rag. As soon as that is no longer the case then Ragna wins. So the question becomes why spend the gil on Calad when you could get Ragna for less which beats it in the vast, vast majority of situations.

lol.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-09-20 11:41:25
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
Asura.Jem said: »
It isn't a wrong assumption as using a Dusty Wing for TP at capped haste is a net loss in damage (or at least that is what I have been led to believe by people who mathed it out)
totally different for Cala where the AM is actually useful and you just want to pop a wing to get AM3 up.


I would use it for AM3 on Cala but that hurts its case vs Rag. With capped delay Wings are obviously hurting DPS. But no VW mob should live longer then 90 seconds.

With Am3 up and capped ACC I have Cala99 beating Rag99 by 6.5%. (less since I didn't factor in the single Torcleavor) If ACC is a factor Rag detroys Cala99. Also as mob Def and lvl increase Rags advange increases. (crits)

Moral of the story is 99Cala is a waste of gil, only because you can have 99Rag which is a superior weapon just about always.
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 Asura.Jem
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By Asura.Jem 2012-09-20 11:55:22
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Fenrir.Curty said: »
Asura.Jem said: »
It isn't a wrong assumption as using a Dusty Wing for TP at capped haste is a net loss in damage (or at least that is what I have been led to believe by people who mathed it out)

Really a 3240 loss in damage though? Debatable.

That 3240 is with everything in favour of Calad though. As soon as LR is down or SE is up or the mob is higher level or your crit rate is lower or buffs aren't perfect, etc then it drops significantly. That also isn't factoring in atmacites which would benefit Ragna more than Calad (or rather Reso more than Torcleaver).

If conditions are ideal then yes Calad wins because 30% ODD is just plain better than 14% Crit Rate and I don't think any sane person can debate that. The crunch point seems to be how much sacrifice has to be made to maintain that ODD and how frequently conditions are going to be ideal.

And that's also completely overlooking Ragna's Acc. Whilst it's easy to go 'Acc is capped!', that simply isn't always the case even with Relics, nevermind with 40 acc missing. Only a few weeks ago I got lazy with DE/Aggressor against the Prov Watcher pre-req fights and somehow ended up at only 87% acc using Apoc.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-09-20 12:02:29
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Asura.Jem said: »
Fenrir.Curty said: »
Asura.Jem said: »
It isn't a wrong assumption as using a Dusty Wing for TP at capped haste is a net loss in damage (or at least that is what I have been led to believe by people who mathed it out)

Really a 3240 loss in damage though? Debatable.

That 3240 is with everything in favour of Calad though. As soon as LR is down or SE is up or the mob is higher level or your crit rate is lower or buffs aren't perfect, etc then it drops significantly. That also isn't factoring in atmacites which would benefit Ragna more than Calad (or rather Reso more than Torcleaver).

If conditions are ideal then yes Calad wins because 30% ODD is just plain better than 14% Crit Rate and I don't think any sane person can debate that. The crunch point seems to be how much sacrifice has to be made to maintain that ODD and how frequently conditions are going to be ideal.

And that's also completely overlooking Ragna's Acc. Whilst it's easy to go 'Acc is capped!', that simply isn't always the case even with Relics, nevermind with 40 acc missing. Only a few weeks ago I got lazy with DE/Aggressor against the Prov Watcher pre-req fights and somehow ended up at only 87% acc using Apoc.

16% OD2.5 and 14% Crit is equal to about 32% ODD. Remember Crits and OD2.5% can stack.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:08:20
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16% at OD2.5 would be 24%, not 32%.
 Asura.Jem
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By Asura.Jem 2012-09-20 12:14:04
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I was counting the OD2.5 and crit rate as seperate entities. Or rather I was being lazy and assuming 16% OD2.5 to be the equivalent of the 20% ODD relics for simplicity purposes.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-09-20 12:20:27
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
16% at OD2.5 would be 24%, not 32%.


16% OD2.5 + 14% crit rate

Also thanks, yeah 16% OD2.5 is 24% ODD. (I had been using 20%)

When you add back in the crit rate its equal to around 36% ODD.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:21:26
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Critical hit rate has no effect on the rate of ODD.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-09-20 12:26:29
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Critical hit rate has no effect on the rate of ODD.


Ofcourse not.

But its total impact on DPS can be made comparable.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:27:22
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Not really.
 Diabolos.Raelia
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By Diabolos.Raelia 2012-09-20 12:30:14
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Critical hit rate has no effect on the rate of ODD.
If the crit rate of both weapons were the same you'd be right, but as Rag has a naturally higher crit rate and crits are literally just a x1.476 damage proc at capped attack... yes it's a factor.
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-09-20 12:30:35
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Not really.


Sure it can. It just requires tweaking depending on the lvl,agi and def of the mob. Easily done by capping Att to eliminate one factor.

Then you back into the ODD required to have an equal DPS of a 16% OD2.5+14% crit weapon.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:31:44
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Diabolos.Raelia said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Critical hit rate has no effect on the rate of ODD.
If the crit rate of both weapons were the same you'd be right, but as Rag has a naturally higher crit rate and crits are literally just a x1.476 damage proc at capped attack... yes it's a factor.
Not saying it's not a factor, but saying that 14% crit rate is roughly equivalent to 8% ODD is just wrong. They're not the same, they don't function the same.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:32:36
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Cerberus.Taint said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Not really.


Sure it can. It just requires tweaking depending on the lvl,agi and def of the mob. Easily done by capping Att to eliminate one factor.

Then you back into the ODD required to have an equal DPS of a 16% OD2.5+14% crit weapon.
Or you can do it properly and math out your crits AND OD2.5 instead of just throwing out 14% crit rate = 8% ODD on a specific mob.
 Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-09-20 12:36:47
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Cerberus.Taint said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Not really.


Sure it can. It just requires tweaking depending on the lvl,agi and def of the mob. Easily done by capping Att to eliminate one factor.

Then you back into the ODD required to have an equal DPS of a 16% OD2.5+14% crit weapon.
Or you can do it properly and math out your crits AND OD2.5 instead of just throwing out 14% crit rate = 8% ODD on a specific mob.


That is doing it correctly since we are comparing 2 different weapons.

If you take a mob
Code
Level	110
pDif Correction	0.55
Defense	560
Def Down Tier	2
Final Def	504
Evasion	485
Vit	120
Agi	120


You know that Cala needs to maintain a 36% ODD average to equal Rags OD2.5 and crit advantage.

Code
Level	101
pDif Correction	0.1
Defense	560
Def Down Tier	2
Final Def	504
Evasion	430
Vit	110
Agi	100


Requires 33%
 Diabolos.Raelia
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By Diabolos.Raelia 2012-09-20 12:39:11
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Unless you're capping crit rate (unlikely) or on one of those stupid legion floors I hear about that floor crit rate, you're always getting that 14% crit rate. We're not talking dDEX or anything.

Unfortunately, Taint, I have to agree your math is off:

( 3.075 * 1.08 ) / 2.25 = 1.476

0.476 * 0.14 = 0.06664

6.664% ODD equivalence (You'd divide by the 'gain' of ODD first actually, which is 1)

and 16% x2.5:

1.5 * 0.16 = 24% ODD equivalence though, so that part is right.

So 30.664% ODD equivalence all-told.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:39:27
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Quote:
16% OD2.5 and 14% Crit is equal to about 32% ODD.
Is a false statement in the grand scheme of things. Sure, on one target they come out similar in damage, but saying it like you did there is incorrect.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:42:17
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Diabolos.Raelia said: »
Unless you're capping crit rate (unlikely) or on one of those stupid legion floors I hear about that floor crit rate, you're always getting that 14% crit rate. We're not talking dDEX or anything.

Unfortunately, Taint, I have to agree your math is off:

( 3.075 * 1.08 ) / 2.25 = 1.476

0.476 * 0.14 = 0.06664

6.664% ODD equivalence (You'd divide by the 'gain' of ODD first actually, which is 1)

and 16% x2.5:

1.5 * 0.16 = 24% ODD equivalence though, so that part is right.

So 30.664% ODD equivalence all-told.
Which is, unfortunately, very mob level specific if you do it like that.
 Diabolos.Raelia
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By Diabolos.Raelia 2012-09-20 12:44:21
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Should we affect ODD by deficiencies in Accuracy then?

Because Rag has about 20% hitrate advantage if you wanna play the 'hard target' card.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:45:13
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Yes, there is no reason not to. No reason not to do it for initial swings of an attack round either.
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-09-20 12:46:07
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Quote:
16% OD2.5 and 14% Crit is equal to about 32% ODD.
Is a false statement in the grand scheme of things. Sure, on one target they come out similar in damage, but saying it like you did there is incorrect.


I get what you are saying. The effect of the crit changes with the mob, I should have been more clear.
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By Diabolos.Raelia 2012-09-20 12:48:28
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So explain to me how mob level affects crit rate from gear outside of these silly Legion floors that are zeroing the crit rate of even WARs. I'm very curious because as far as I know dDEX doesn't go negative and level has nothing to do with it, it's just a stupid effect or mob trait in those particular events.

I suppose you could say his crit rate has room to go up, which would devalue it slightly, but that's just being neurotic about it.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:54:32
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You mean besides cRatio?
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By Diabolos.Raelia 2012-09-20 12:57:30
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
You mean besides cRatio?
Remember that joke about the trap card in the other thread? Yeah, that.

cRatio going down is actually going to increase the value of his crits, because they'll still be averaging about the same (capping 3.0 before secondary, and 8% critical attack bonus) while his normal pDif drops.

You know DRK's crits have always been weak because of the 3.0 cap on them, right? Level correction is just gonna start shaving that cap off.

It stays the goddamn same within about 10%. Get over it.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-09-20 12:59:27
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Duh. That's why I said comparing 14% crit to 8% ODD is not a good idea, because it's mob dependent. Same reason I said your math earlier was also mob dependent.

And no, I don't have a clue what joke you mean.
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By Diabolos.Raelia 2012-09-20 13:01:43
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6.664% is the absolute minimum actually. It only climbs as pDif drops, albeit a tad slower as you drop below 2.0 cRatio and sub-3.0s start creeping in.
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