Random Question Thread (FFXI Related)

Yeah. It can't actually counter the slow effect(Again, I haven't tested this for melee delay, but it can't counter it for recasts, so, fair assumption), but it can make up for losing you regular haste buff.

EDIT: But it'd only have an effect up to the point that you have capped magic haste.

I think I remember reading a test about marches, haste and indihaste on a melee with Weakened Status.
Tried to find it but couldn't, it's out there somewhere in the web!
Been discussed here on FFXIAH for sure, I remember participating in that discussion.


Take for instance Magic Haste. It caps at 43.75%, which means you can amass a total amount of 43.75% magic haste, anything further than that will be useless.
That's because you normally start from 0%, but what if you start from further below, because of a magic slow?
Being the same term this allows you to make use of a larger amount of total magic haste, but the cap is still there.
This wouldn't work if we were talking about a different type of slow, say a JA slow. Adding more than 43,75% magic haste would make no difference in this situation.
I think?

Wonder if the 100% Slow you get from Weakened is magic or something else.

If it didnt we woulnt have been doing overhaste with marches/indi haste. Haste and slow in all their forms iirc apply at the same time, just gotta subtract slow from your total haste to see where you're at as far as delay reductions go

So I'm not the only one confused by this entire topic, because that was my strat for Kei too: just overcap magic haste to annul the slow aura.

Slow aura stops magic haste effect on yourself.

Other forms of magic haste, if stacked, are additive to the slow aura you have.

Saying "slow aura means you cannot be affected by haste" is both true and misleading. The haste buff (from a rdm or whm or smn) won't land. Other forms of magic haste will.

You can overpower slow aura with forms of magic haste other than the haste spell like marches or a haste bubble from a geo - is the full answer.

Things like job haste from samba/hasso/LR also apply as far as overpowering a slow aura, only thing that's not known i think is just how much slow can be placed on a player. But no mob does more than i think 50% slow, i think in the case of kei his slow spikes are 30%

Is he not agreeing that's how it works right here?

Martel can clarify, but I just took as it as "the haste buff slot is taken by the slow aura effect".

On the topic of attack speed, can someone explain how Martial Arts (and gear) affects your attack speed? I'm trying to figure out if it is practical to carry around additional pieces of Martial Arts gear, for instances where I only have Haste 1 or 2 (solo Limbus with 3-trust limit or other random unbuffed scenarios). A simple "not worth it" is sufficient too, but I am trying to understand the formula involved.

Like I noticed on the "Attack Speed" wiki page, it shows a Dual Wield Cheat Sheet, but there is no version of this for Martial Arts. Is it functionally the same thing?

For example, 1200 JP MNK has 270 delay. With Verethragna (+81) that is 351 delay. How much Martial Arts in gear would I need with say Haste 1 or Haste 2 to reach the attack speed cap, or is it even possible (I see there is a minimum Martial Arts delay of 96)? I'm not even sure there's enough gear to make this worth it. Probably not, but curious from a math perspective (Mache +1, Empy+3 body is a given).

MA has the same 80% delay reduction cap but also has a 96 total delay cap, since MA is a static value and not a % and it applies before haste/s kick in, you need a lot to delay cap with say just haste II and gear cap; a lot being something liiiiike 102 total with a vere. That's with both gifts btw

Reason there's a DW cheat sheet is because DW is functionally similar to haste in that it's also a percentile decrease in attack speed, with MA being just a static amount, the amounts needed can just balloon as shown above well beyond what a mnk can reasonably equip

96 is just the limit for a bare fists mnk, weapon delay still factors into it so the limit is ((480+weapondelay)*0.2). I tested that here:

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36705/iipunch-monk-guide/171/#3286254

I don't know if anyone ever went back to figure out the discrepency, but it didn't actually match our understanding of delay even though it did clearly show that excess MA is wasted. Might be worth revisiting at some point.


Also, if you don't have JA haste, you need some martial arts depending on weapon to cap delay. To do the calculation...

With capped gear/magic haste, you have 704/1024 reduction. So, to get your target delay you create a constant:
1 / (1 - 704/1024) = 3.2

Godhands delay = base(480) + weapon(138) = 618
base delay(618) * (max reduction)0.2 = 123.6 minimum delay, round down
123 * 3.2(constant) = 393.6 (round down)

So, capping delay requires 393 delay before haste. MNK's base is 270, so 270+138 = 408. Thus, Godhands MNK needs 15 martial arts to cap delay without JA haste. PUP base is 275, so they need 20.

If you're not running capped magic haste, like your haste 2 example, the constant changes to 1 / (1 - 563/1024) = 2.22126. 123 * 2.22126 = 273.2 delay(round down). You'd need 135 additional MA to cap on MNK.

Thank you both. So to reiterate, unless you have capped magic haste, it's not possible to cap delay as a practical matter with Martial Arts gear. Is that accurate?

Until they start dropping gear with MA-30 or something on it, yeah. Even if you were /dnc running haste samba so gear cap, haste II and /dnc samba you're still looking at 70ish MA, which is still beyond what you'd reasonably have available as mnk(kkk pup actually might be able to pull that off lol)

It's not possible to cap practically, and really even single pieces are probably not worth the effort. With Vereth, your base delay is 351 so a 13 reduction is 13/351 = 1/(1-.037)=3.84% additional attack speed on Mache+1. But, it also potentially cuts your tp gain and there are a lot of strong earrings these days.

I wasn't agreeing with it, actually. But... I am now. lol.

I went to retest, and I've come to the conclusion that I messed up my last test.

My previous test used bolster geo-haste and slow II(non sabo) to compare haste and slow effects. Problem is, I hadn't actually calculated or tested just how potent that slow II was... I'd, apparently, just assumed that Bolstered geo-haste would be more than enough to counter it if it worked that way. And since the recast still increased, that led me to believe that magic haste and slow were not additive to the same term.

In my retest just now, I used slow I with no enfeeble potency+ gear. And... it did fully counter the slow. Exact same recast with Haste+Geo-Haste, and with slow I+Bolster Geo-haste. So haste and slow are behaving in an additive manner.

My prior test didn't list what gear I cast slow II in, but... If I cast it in full potency+ with capped dMND.. it would have been 61.7% slow... vs bolster geo-haste's 81.8% haste. That would have left me at 20.1% magic haste. So... no ***the recast changed in the original test. I wasn't magic haste capped at all anymore.

TLDR: I screwed up my previous test. Magic haste and magic slow do appear to be additive. And slow can be negated by sufficient magic haste.

My next question now is... is there some slow in game that's not "magic"?
Because slow (spell) and slow (aura) gotta be magic haste.
Is there something else that's not magic and, hence, not possible to counter with Marches and indi-haste?

I can't think of a debuff that's slow and not magic.
Weakened comes to mind, in theory it's 100% slow, wonder if that's considered "magic" or something else.

Indi-haste is ~41% magic haste, 3x Marches is ~64% magic haste (total: ~105%)
Respectively ~82% and ~128% with Bolster and SV (total: ~210%)

So IN THEORY to fully counter weakened, if we assume it to be magic slow and hence on the same term, you would either need 3x Marches and Bolster indihaste, or indi-haste and SV marches.


Did I miss anything?

I don't think the slow from weakness can be countered by over-capping haste.

It would be quite trivial to check.

Well, if it indeed is considered magic slow, then you can totally counter it, but you're gonna need A *** of haste, after all 100% is a huge number and >143.75% magic haste would be necessary.

If it's not magic slow but something else, then pretty confident you won't be able to counter it.
Or rather, you would be able to gain the normal 43,75% magic haste and anything above that would be moot.
Because after all this is what we were talking about, in other terms, right? Situations where you can benefit from more than 43,75% magic haste.

I haven't done testing myself so take it with a grain of salt but anecdotally, when weakened in sheol gaol, I usually get 2 marches from BRD, at least haste 1, and sometimes geo haste and the recast on arise is still ***. I think it takes your recast after gear and magic haste, then doubles it. Similarly with lots of haste buffs while weakened, you still attack slow as pisa

Honestly, this was my feeling as well.
But I haven't tested it in a methodic and schematic way, it's just a "feeling", so I can see three possible outcomes in this feeling we both shared:

1) Just a feeling. Even with all the haste we got, we were still far from the ~143.75% requirement, hence why we were still slow while meleeing and our recast were ***

2) Weakened 100% slow is not magic slow, which means different term. So adding magic haste will help up to 43,75% total magic haste, and be ignored past that, meaning you will still be somewhat slow even with lotsa magic haste.

3) Weakened is not 100% slow but something else that halves your speed/doubles recast, which means having a lot of haste will produce some effect but never fully counteract it

I thought I remembered using double SV marches/haste/indi-haste when a SCH stunner died previously and we needed to keep going.

This wouldn't take too long to test, really. >.>

143.75 is only a "requirement" if you want to CAP haste. You'd only need to get past 43.75% if you wanted to see a benefit of additional haste.

Say, for example, you're casting absorb-tp. 1 minute cooldown. With capped gear haste and magic haste, unweakened, you're at 19 seconds' cooldown.

If it works like 100% magic slow then you'd be at 79 seconds with the same magic haste and weakness.

If your timer with 60% magic haste is any shorter than 79 seconds then it overrides the weakness slow. You only really need like...45% magic haste to be able to notice a difference, especially on longer spells.

Then you need 143.75% if you wanted to get back to 19s (which frankly i think is impossible). You don't need to even remotely approach this number to test (or feel) the effects of "overcapping" haste to cover weakness slow.

I feel like abyssea lights campaign just sorta... *** up your ability to farm pop item chests (low amber light), doesn't it?

Do yall just wait for the campaign to be over and pick up farming then?

Trying to do apademak and Im almost entirely just getting blue chests, it completely ruins my ability to farm :/

Any workarounds or do I just suffer and wait for campaign to be over?

Correct assessment. It just *** you over. Period.

Nothing you can do.

Debating booking a day or two off work for the week of Sept 8~12 during the short window that abyssea lights go away.

I have time saved up so honestly could use a lil staycation to crush out some apademaks...

Farm Amber to 40 or 48, and just farm the NM cycles. You'll luck out while always making consistent progress with the NMs. Regardless of the campaign. Slower, sure, but not that bad.