Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-12-24 10:17:42
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Asura.Natenn said: »
When they let us 119 aegis they should make it look like this

DEF:80
Shield Bash+1000
MDT-50%
Extends "Palisade" & "Reprisal" Duration
Shield Skill+242
At which point, we'd have one shield to rule them all.

Based on my Killedar shield Tests from when it had +215 shield skill on the test server, a +242 skill Aegis would be maybe 10% block rate behind Ochain. Easily capped with reprisal. And still overall better dmg- when not capping. Aegis already has -81% dmg on block. adding 40 more def, would push this to -100% dmg on block. <,<;;

If SE ever did this, Ochain would become a MP vert toy, and PLD would be invincible to everything but breath dmg. At which point SE would start making more evil mobs like AA EV, but nastier. lol.

Which is largely why if we ever do get ilvl shields, they won't get such a large boost. But even a modest increase to shields would be nice.
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 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-24 10:36:57
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Asura.Natenn said: »
When they let us 119 aegis they should make it look like this

DEF:80
Shield Bash+1000
MDT-50%
Extends "Palisade" & "Reprisal" Duration
Shield Skill+242
At which point, we'd have one shield to rule them all.

Based on my Killedar shield Tests from when it had +215 shield skill on the test server, a +242 skill Aegis would be maybe 10% block rate behind Ochain. Easily capped with reprisal. And still overall better dmg- when not capping. Aegis already has -81% dmg on block. adding 40 more def, would push this to -100% dmg on block. <,<;;

If SE ever did this, Ochain would become a MP vert toy, and PLD would be invincible to everything but breath dmg. At which point SE would start making more evil mobs like AA EV, but nastier. lol.

Which is largely why if we ever do get ilvl shields, they won't get such a large boost. But even a modest increase to shields would be nice.
well if they did that id assume they would give ochain a mirrored boost too, aegis alone doesn;t allow for lower maint for pld, you will quickly run out of MP. when i do t5 AAs i dont get refresh or ballad or anything im treated as a dd but ochain keeps my mp capped pretty much all the time even though im /nin.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-12-24 11:40:56
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I think they are afraid to make any other changes to aegis or ochain. It's hard to make anything better than them without pushing it over the top. If we see an ilvl change of that size, it wouldn't matter if we saw a mirrored change to ochain, ochain would still be just a toy and aegis would make you practically immortal to anything that can be blocked or is magic damage.

Status effects, breath damage and ranged damage would be the only thing that could deal any damage and they would have to use sneaky irritating mechanics just to kill you. Not really the route I'd prefer.
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-12-24 16:04:54
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Asura.Natenn said: »
When they let us 119 aegis they should make it look like this

DEF:80
Shield Bash+1000
MDT-50%
Extends "Palisade" & "Reprisal" Duration
Shield Skill+242
At which point, we'd have one shield to rule them all.

Based on my Killedar shield Tests from when it had +215 shield skill on the test server, a +242 skill Aegis would be maybe 10% block rate behind Ochain. Easily capped with reprisal. And still overall better dmg- when not capping. Aegis already has -81% dmg on block. adding 40 more def, would push this to -100% dmg on block. <,<;;

If SE ever did this, Ochain would become a MP vert toy, and PLD would be invincible to everything but breath dmg. At which point SE would start making more evil mobs like AA EV, but nastier. lol.

Which is largely why if we ever do get ilvl shields, they won't get such a large boost. But even a modest increase to shields would be nice.

Could you post some of this testing? I didn't think the +skill would bring a shield past it's hard cap on block rate (thus an Aegis with 250 skill would still be capped at merely 60~% block rate).

Though they're going to HAVE to add some skill to the shields if they expect our block rates to be anything other than complete trash as our opponents move to iLvL 150..

As for what improvements we should see, I usually take my expectations of what I think would be a fair boost, then cut it by 1/3rd.

So Ochain and Aegis will likely receive merely a boost in shield skill, and nothing else.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-12-24 16:06:47
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Asura.Natenn said: »
well if they did that id assume they would give ochain a mirrored boost too, aegis alone doesn;t allow for lower maint for pld, you will quickly run out of MP. when i do t5 AAs i dont get refresh or ballad or anything im treated as a dd but ochain keeps my mp capped pretty much all the time even though im /nin.
With an Aegis like that, you'd be taking literally 0 dmg from all physical attacks. And you'd take the same 0 dmg even with no PDT gear at all. Wouldn't even need phalanx. What would you be using all that MP on?

As for a mirrored boost for Ochain, Adding shield skill to Ochain wouldn't do much. It's already got capped of near capped block rate on nearly everything. The issue lies in it's low block -dmg%. Currently -66%. Even if you give it 80 def, like this dream Aegis, that puts you at -86% compared to -100%.

If I were to do anything for Ochain at that point, it'd be to give it a big chunk of shield mastery, and let it be the DD shield. Hopefully SE wouldn't say +10 then give us +1 again...
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-12-24 16:07:46
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Neo, do you not see the link in the post you just quoted? <,<
 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-12-24 16:14:59
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Was on my phone, didn't load :<. Sitting in an airport on christmas eve..

edit: Read the tests, great work as usual Martel.

That being said, it confuses the living hell out of me.

We see hard caps when we're way over skill on lower tier mobs. Yet when we apply a metric ton of skill at lvl 70-100+ mobs, we're not seeing it.

Or perhaps SE just made iLvL shields have no hard cap, so they can be just as overpowered as their weapon counterparts. - Seems more likely than assuming the shield block equation is even wonkier than we previously thought.

That being said, has anyone done testing on the Eminence shield? Could see pretty easily whether we're noticing it pass the expected cap rate.
 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-12-24 17:03:05
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Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
That being said, has anyone done testing on the Eminence shield? Could see pretty easily whether we're noticing it pass the expected cap rate.
Martel did more Killedar tests shortly after it went live. It has the same +skill as Eminent shield (but is better overall, which is why you should buy the ones I make!). This doesn't really answer your question but the info is still relevant and interesting.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-12-24 18:01:30
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Honestly, it confuses the hell outta me too. Either the hard caps were lifted at some point.. Or there's some kinda skill tiers required to breach certain levels of block rate, regardless of mob level. Said tiers could have previously emulated a hard cap for us, cause we couldn't reach skill+ values to reach the next tier.

For example, after the level caps went up(I forget which cap it was at) I had tests on normal size 3 shields with as high a 70% block rate. On trash mobs, mind you. But a hard cap of 60% or 65% should have prevented that no matter how weak the mobs. I had just assumed that previous testing was in error.
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 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-24 18:22:12
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Maby this then
DEF:60?
Shield Bash+1000
Augments Pallisade & Reprisal
MDT-50%


and not give the shield skill?
but yea shield mastery on one or both would be touchdown
 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-12-24 22:32:06
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Ya I was Mathing some possibilities out Martel. I'll give it some more thought.

And Natenn you know as well as I do that SE won't give us anything reasonable as an upgrade :/.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-12-25 00:05:29
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Ochain 119
Dispense: Hi-Ether +2
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 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-25 09:30:36
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Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
Ya I was Mathing some possibilities out Martel. I'll give it some more thought.

And Natenn you know as well as I do that SE won't give us anything reasonable as an upgrade :/.
we can always hope/speculate, the Shield mastery+10 idea sounds good since anymore defensive buffs are pretty much out of the question, another good idea might be to give us Augmented reprisal which inflicts back the dmg we would of taken instead of the peanut dmg it usually does. Maby even add some Acc or Atk or add a dispel effect to shield bashetc, im sure you guys have some other ideas. They said they would let us upgrade em eventually
 Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2013-12-25 10:51:42
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Enmity +10 on Aegis, conserve mp +10 on Ochain is what you'll get
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-12-25 10:59:09
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Asura.Natenn said: »
we can always hope/speculate, the Shield mastery+10 idea sounds good since anymore defensive buffs are pretty much out of the question, another good idea might be to give us Augmented reprisal which inflicts back the dmg we would of taken instead of the peanut dmg it usually does.
There is one major problem with this Idea. And since you suggested it, I'm assuming you didn't know this.

Reprisal has a spike damage dealt cap. When you reach that cap, reprisal will wear off early. The cap is determined by Max hp/2 at the time of cast. So yes, macro in HP+ in any non haste/fastcast slots on reprisal cast.

The cap is rarely noticed, precisely because reprisal doesn't do much dmg. To ever see it wear early, you'd need lots of really hard hitting, non-resistant mobs. Two traits that do not generally mix. And then you have to be watching closely through all the dmg/spikes spam.

So, if reprisal reflected the full unblocked( or even blocked) dmg we would have taken, rather than hitting for peanuts, It'd wear off really fast. And considering it's recast, that would not be helpful at all.

On your other ideas. I think a dispel on shield bash is fairly reasonable. But post bash acc/atk seems kinda weird. And of course, I'm always in favor of more shield mastery.... As long as it's not on a crappy shield(hi beatific! -.-)

Asura.Ccl said: »
Enmity +10 on Aegis, conserve mp +10 on Ochain is what you'll get
Oddly enough, I would be entirely for +10 enmity on either shield. not that I don't want more than that, but. Conserve MP on Ochain would be pretty obnoxious though. lol.
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 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-25 11:14:04
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Asura.Natenn said: »
we can always hope/speculate, the Shield mastery+10 idea sounds good since anymore defensive buffs are pretty much out of the question, another good idea might be to give us Augmented reprisal which inflicts back the dmg we would of taken instead of the peanut dmg it usually does.
There is one major problem with this Idea. And since you suggested it, I'm assuming you didn't know this.

Reprisal has a spike damage dealt cap. When you reach that cap, reprisal will wear off early. The cap is determined by Max hp/2 at the time of cast. So yes, macro in HP+ in any non haste/fastcast slots on reprisal cast.

The cap is rarely noticed, precisely because reprisal doesn't do much dmg. To ever see it wear early, you'd need lots of really hard hitting, non-resistant mobs. Two traits that do not generally mix. And then you have to be watching closely through all the dmg/spikes spam.

So, if reprisal reflected the full unblocked( or even blocked) dmg we would have taken, rather than hitting for peanuts, It'd wear off really fast. And considering it's recast, that would not be helpful at all.

On your other ideas. I think a dispel on shield bash is fairly reasonable. But post bash acc/atk seems kinda weird. And of course, I'm always in favor of more shield mastery.... As long as it's not on a crappy shield(hi beatific! -.-)

Asura.Ccl said: »
Enmity +10 on Aegis, conserve mp +10 on Ochain is what you'll get
Oddly enough, I would be entirely for +10 enmity on either shield. not that I don't want more than that, but. Conserve MP on Ochain would be pretty obnoxious though. lol.
ahhh i have noticed reprisal wearing kinda fast a few times but didnt think nothing of it since its kinda meh w/ ochain, i meant them making reprisal last X duration and returning all blocked dmg unresisted since on higher tier stuff it only does 1~4 dmg
 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-25 11:14:53
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Asura.Ccl said: »
Enmity +10 on Aegis, conserve mp +10 on Ochain is what you'll get
14 died get back to xi so i can do more EG stuff
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By Fafnir 2013-12-25 11:15:18
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DEF:40
Shield Strike
MDT-50%
[ItemLevel:109]

DEF:40
Shield Strike II
MDT-50%
[ItemLevel:119]

And so on :o
 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-25 11:16:23
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Fafnir said: »
DEF:40
Shield Strike
MDT-50%
[ItemLevel:109]

DEF:40
Shield Strike II
MDT-50%
[ItemLevel:119]

And so on :o
Touche sir, that does seem kinda nice since ev is a skank with it knock back and all
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-12-25 11:42:02
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Fafnir said: »
DEF:40
Shield Strike
MDT-50%
[ItemLevel:109]

DEF:40
Shield Strike II
MDT-50%
[ItemLevel:119]

And so on :o
I like that idea. Shield strike is such nasty move. Long cone AoE, and much longer/stronger stun is very appealing.

But one issue. Mob positioning can be tricky enough as it is. Particularly when dealing with large numbers of mobs. I don't think I really want knock back. It might make a wave of mobs that I had nicely settled in front og me go all over the place. <,<;;

Also, It's rather a shame that they didn't make the AA Elvaan's shield a drop. It's such a unique model. Could have been made to be a pretty good shield.
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 Phoenix.Cliamain
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By Phoenix.Cliamain 2013-12-25 12:04:03
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I'm in the making of a burtgang. Anyone have any idea what i'd use for an Aftermath set?
 Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2013-12-25 12:12:52
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Asura.Natenn said: »
Asura.Ccl said: »
Enmity +10 on Aegis, conserve mp +10 on Ochain is what you'll get
14 died get back to xi so i can do more EG stuff


14 didn't die, my free time outside of EU time zone did and no EU play this game anymore!
 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-25 12:21:05
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Phoenix.Cliamain said: »
I'm in the making of a burtgang. Anyone have any idea what i'd use for an Aftermath set?
what do you mean?
 Phoenix.Cliamain
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By Phoenix.Cliamain 2013-12-25 12:58:48
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I mean, i've seen people make AM 3 Sets for say. Liberator, Conqueror etc etc.

Like if i was in a all out damage situation, what kind of things would I want to slot in? Would I get rid of double attack gear and slot in some acc/att gear?

I've heard that the DA% on gear takes priority over the twice/thrice on Burt.
 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-12-25 13:10:14
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I'd stick with the current best DOT set Cliamain, but swap out Ares+1 Hands/Legs for Buremate hands and maybe legs for other iLvL alternatives.

And as for shield skill results, I got bored and decided to rework the shield skill equation. I think I have a potential answer:

Me working it out:

Conclusion:

Essentially my hypothesis is that the results were weird for us because of two factors: We have a level correction factor similar to pdif level correction that only comes into play for mobs above us. Additionally, shield skill works like summoning magic skill in that we get bonus for the amount above our base level skill:

Shield Block Rate = Base_Block_Rate + [Block Rate Bonus – LevelCorrectionFactor]

Block Rate Bonus = ((Shield Skill – Base_Skill)/SkillDivider), and only acts as a bonus, (so if your skill is below level, it won't hurt you, similar to summoning magic).

Base_Block_Rate = Depends on shield type, ~50% for Type 3 (proposed, though it could be lower, as I'm oversimplifying the skill divider).

Skill_Divider = 1~6 (depending on skill level tiers, I'm guessing a stepwise increase every 100skill or so).

LevelCorrectionFactor = (MobLevel-PlayerLevel)/2, and only applies to mobs above our level, similar to pdif level correction.

The above equation explains all our previous results.. I think :D.

Also, this makes me think Ochain use has a hidden +skill on it, and nothing else.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-12-25 13:31:58
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Fafnir said: »
DEF:40
Shield Strike
MDT-50%
[ItemLevel:109]

DEF:40
Shield Strike II
MDT-50%
[ItemLevel:119]

And so on :o
I like that idea. Shield strike is such nasty move. Long cone AoE, and much longer/stronger stun is very appealing.

But one issue. Mob positioning can be tricky enough as it is. Particularly when dealing with large numbers of mobs. I don't think I really want knock back. It might make a wave of mobs that I had nicely settled in front og me go all over the place. <,<;;

Also, It's rather a shame that they didn't make the AA Elvaan's shield a drop. It's such a unique model. Could have been made to be a pretty good shield.
The knockback effect could always be the same as Head Butt, where its graphic only, the monsters don't actually change position!
 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-25 13:47:50
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stun duration/shield mastery yes pls
 Valefor.Omnys
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By Valefor.Omnys 2013-12-25 14:05:03
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In a perfect world where PLD got Fencer, it'd be nice to see Fencer on one shield and SM on the other. (Naturally PLD doesn't need Fencer to get fencer-enhancing gear, just makes it less likely se would do it).
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-12-25 14:20:02
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They are the only job that would get a practical use out of it. Not sure why they decided not to. Afraid of the little pld's out dd'ing someone I guess...
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-12-25 14:38:07
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Works out new shield block equation... And everyone talks about Pld not getting fencer.
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