Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
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 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-12-16 12:27:39
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Good god people.

Magic Damage Dealt = D × MTDR × Staff × Affinity × SDT × Resist × MB × MBB × Day & Weather × MAB/MDB × TMDA × Potency Multipliers

D: INT-adjusted Base Damage: D = mDMG + V + (dINT × M)

Variables:
V: Every individual damage-dealing magic spell has a base damage value denoted as V.
dINT: dINT represents the difference between caster and target INT: (Caster's INT - Target's INT).
M: Every individual damage-dealing magic spell has several INT multiplier values denoted as M for different dINT ranges.
Note: For offensive white magic, substitute dMND for dINT (Caster's MND - Target's MND)
mDMG: mDMG represents the "Magic Damage" statistic obtained from equipped weapons and armor.
D: INT and "Magic Damage" adjusted base spell damage calculated from the terms above.

The calculation of D is a piecewise function with the multiplier M changing at the following INT levels:
dINT = 0 ~ 49
dINT = 50 ~ 99
dINT = 100 ~ 199
dINT > 200
When determining D, the appropriate V and M values must be applied depending on the INT difference. For example, with dINT = 134, V100 should be chosen for the base damage, and the M which corresponds to dINT = 100 ~ 199 should be chosen as the multiplier. When choosing a V value, reduce the dINT by the amount factored into the V value to come up with the correct result (for example, at 134 INT, when using V100 in the calculation, use dINT = 134-100 = 34)

For example: A mob that casts Thundaja on you:

If you are within 0-50 dInt:
V = 1000
M = 4

If you are within 50-99 dInt:
V = 1200
M = 3.75

If you are within 100-200
V = 1387
M = 3.75

But that's not all! dInt counts twice really, because it factors into your V and M numbers AND your total Magic D value:

D = mDMG + V + (dINT × M)

Thus, the 17 Intelligence you get from Cizin (or similar ilvl gear) provides you with a magic damage reduction at THREE potential points in the equation (V, dInt, and M).

The majority of the time (depends on mob intelligence and other factors), this 17 intelligence will net you more than magic reduction than Nocturnus Mail's 5% magic damage absorb. AND THAT'S BEFORE counting the magic evasion, PDT, and defense of the ilvl armor.

There is no situation where Nocturnus Mail is useful. Not in kiting, not in old school JoL type fights, not in newer macro swaps. It is inferior as a magic damage reduction piece in every way.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Mckenzee
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By Quetzalcoatl.Mckenzee 2013-12-16 13:00:18
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I don't understand the arguments going on here. The way I've always looked at it, Nocturnous Helm and Shadow Mantle both function best when fitting into a set that already has capped pdt. During that situation they would contribute to the overall -dt above and beyond the pdt cap.

A question I'd like to pose is that given capped pdt- would the ~5%(?) proc rate on absorbs outweigh a significantly higher defense like a level 119 gear.

Reverence Coronet +1 has def:119 pdt-5, which would alleviate some other spaces for some other gears which might help out more, though in other aspects than pure -dt.

edit: i picked noct mail because it's badass town gear, helm was a very close second place. I'd still love to get the helm or god forbid if people actually got access to fiat lux. That's a fight that needs a hard mode (and access requirments eased).
 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-12-16 13:33:32
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Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
bgwiki
You're severely overstating the impact of 17 INT on a kiting PLD. A difference of 17 INT for a -ja spell only results in about 4% extra magic damage average, which for a 3k -ja on a kiting Aegis PLD is only ~19 damage, before resists and mdb. The amount healed by absorbs is calculated before damage reduction sources, so it's easy for Nocturnus Mail to win in magic damage reduction over time on any type of nuke.

The absorb might over-cure you and the 19 damage would probably do nothing so I would save the inventory slot and just use Cizin (or Reverence Surcoat +1, if you have it), but the mail is at least theoretically better than the alternatives for kiting.
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 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-12-16 20:44:17
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
bgwiki
You're severely overstating the impact of 17 INT on a kiting PLD. A difference of 17 INT for a -ja spell only results in about 4% extra magic damage average, which for a 3k -ja on a kiting Aegis PLD is only ~19 damage, before resists and mdb. The amount healed by absorbs is calculated before damage reduction sources, so it's easy for Nocturnus Mail to win in magic damage reduction over time on any type of nuke.

The absorb might over-cure you and the 19 damage would probably do nothing so I would save the inventory slot and just use Cizin (or Reverence Surcoat +1, if you have it), but the mail is at least theoretically better than the alternatives for kiting.

Really would depend on your target's intelligence, and you're correct to say that you're not actually getting the full benefit of the absorb most of the time (especially if you're topped off). I think you're generalizing at only 4% magic damage mitigated (though I'm not saying it's much more above that). Nocturnus mail has a "potential" of being 10% total magic damage mitigated, since it procs 5% of the time and could theoretically heal you for the full damage, so in theory saving you twice the HP. Though odds are it will just proc and heal you for 0 (if you're topped off like you should). Thus, the 17 int on Cizin provides similar to better magic damage mitigation over time, while providing other beneficial stats (both physical and magical).
 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-12-17 10:26:23
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Phoenix.Neosutrax said: »
Really would depend on your target's intelligence, and you're correct to say that you're not actually getting the full benefit of the absorb most of the time (especially if you're topped off). I think you're generalizing at only 4% magic damage mitigated (though I'm not saying it's much more above that). Nocturnus mail has a "potential" of being 10% total magic damage mitigated, since it procs 5% of the time and could theoretically heal you for the full damage, so in theory saving you twice the HP. Though odds are it will just proc and heal you for 0 (if you're topped off like you should). Thus, the 17 int on Cizin provides similar to better magic damage mitigation over time, while providing other beneficial stats (both physical and magical).
You can check out the magic damage spreadsheet to get some values. Model a mob with similar stats to a player, then treat the player as the mob. The experiments I tried gave me values in 4~5% range where the exact decimal didn't change the damage done by more than a few points.

On a 3000 damage nuke with 87.5% mitigated from Aegis/mdt, you're only left with 375 damage. 19*95 is still less than 375*5 so even in the worst possible case for the mail, where it never heals you at all and only annulls, it's still slightly in the lead for reducing damage taken over time.
 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-12-17 10:51:29
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I see what you're saying, I'll play around with the spreadsheet. You also need to look at mobs with stats far above the player and the effects the 17 int have as you change the peicewise step function.

For your scenario though:

19 * 95 = 1805

5 * 357 = 1875

That's a .038% difference BEFORE counting the added HP, magic evasion, and physical damage resistance of other iLvL pieces.

So that's what I'm saying: The mail doesn't (realistically) provide more damage mitigation over time, and leaves you more vulnerable the other 95% of the time, thus it has no real place in any build.

The argument is kind of silly at this point though, since the helm is only slightly better for physical resistance over time, and only applicable to a few (largely outdated) PLD roles.

In the end, perhaps everyone should just get a Ridill for their mannequin.
 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-12-17 12:02:16
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You mean 3.8%, not 0.038%. And remember that's a worst case scenario for the mail with the generous and very debatable assumption that a kiting PLD can eat every nuke with 100% HP.

I looked at at a range of 0~200 for dINT, crossing all dINT boundaries. I'm fairly sure that Motenten has them interpolated linearly between the boundaries though as there don't seem to be any large discrete jumps at the boundary points.

Anyway, folks should have enough info in the thread now to decide on their own.
 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-12-17 12:15:39
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Ya whoops didn't meant to put the decimal and % :D.

Thanx for the info.
 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-17 13:09:38
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anyone know what acc+ belt/legs i can use for AAs? im @ +97 acc not counting DEX+ still looking for a belt/legs
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By itchi508 2013-12-17 13:27:41
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Dynamic belt +1 & Miki legs R15 Dex path prob best bet,
ItemSet 317069
Could use beeline ring, ogiers breeches and enif corraza as options to as well as just keep on Portus collar over Houys gorget. Anguinus Belt has 15acc but no haste.
 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-17 13:41:49
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itchi508 said: »
Dynamic belt +1 & Miki legs R15 Dex path prob best bet,
ItemSet 317069
Could use beeline ring, ogiers breeches and enif corraza as options to as well as just keep on Portus collar over Houys gorget. Anguinus Belt has 15acc but no haste.
ah ty, think ill aim for this
ItemSet 317070
Acc+125 DEX+83(i don't have letalis still QQ)
 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-12-18 04:55:30
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
I looked at at a range of 0~200 for dINT, crossing all dINT boundaries. I'm fairly sure that Motenten has them interpolated linearly between the boundaries though as there don't seem to be any large discrete jumps at the boundary points.

From what I understand, mobs still use the old damage formulas for nuking (aside from maybe elemental spirits), so make sure to switch from New formulas to Old if you're comparing effects such as changing dInt.

Also, the old formulas were never really rigorously detailed the way the new formulas were, so there's less certainty on inflection points and such.

Also an error in Neo's assertion: V does not change based on dInt. Only M does. You may be confusing it with the accumulated damage for a lower dInt tier as dInt increases. For example, if V is 1000 and M is 4.0 for dInt 0-50, once you go above dInt 50 you might simplify and say that V is 1200, and accumulate further based on the new M. However that confuses the issue of what the terms stand for, so shouldn't be used that way.

In general, +Int only affects one part of the overall equation. However since it's a fundamental part, it's disingenuous to say that it becomes less useful as you add more MDT. If you add sufficient Int to reduce base damage by 5%, it will still reduce final damage by 5% regardless of if you have 0% MDT or 50% MDT.


An evaluation of Cizin:

At very high dInts (100+), it appears that adding 17 Int on the defender's side reduces the damage of T5/Ja nukes by about 1.5%. Below 100 dInt, 17 Int reduces damage by about 3% (and maybe a tiny bit better than 3% as dInt falls below 50).

However Cizin also provides MDB, which seems to be getting missed. 3 MDB should reduce damage by an additional ~2.3%-2.9%. Using 2.5%, overall magic damage reduction of Cizen Mail should be between 4% (for dInt above 100) to 5.5% (for dInt below 100).


Obviously the real answer is Reverence +1 body, though.
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 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-12-18 17:07:13
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Fenrir.Motenten said: »
In general, +Int only affects one part of the overall equation. However since it's a fundamental part, it's disingenuous to say that it becomes less useful as you add more MDT. If you add sufficient Int to reduce base damage by 5%, it will still reduce final damage by 5% regardless of if you have 0% MDT or 50% MDT.
In general, I'd agree with you, but in the context of evaluating absorb armor efficacy, it's relevant since absorption ignores MDT. As MDT increases, the damage taken to damage absorbed ratio moves in favor of absorption. Consider 100% MDT for a hyperbolic example.
 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2013-12-18 17:41:08
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Asura.Natenn said: »
itchi508 said: »
Dynamic belt +1 & Miki legs R15 Dex path prob best bet,
ItemSet 317069
Could use beeline ring, ogiers breeches and enif corraza as options to as well as just keep on Portus collar over Houys gorget. Anguinus Belt has 15acc but no haste.
ah ty, think ill aim for this
ItemSet 317070
Acc+125 DEX+83(i don't have letalis still QQ)

You going to get wrecked.
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 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2013-12-20 02:29:23
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I don't have pld but I'm interested in leveling pld. How effective is Pld without Ochain or Aegis for party/low-man activities? I rarely seen anyone playing Pld without having at least one of those shields.
 Quetzalcoatl.Jamiemadrox
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By Quetzalcoatl.Jamiemadrox 2013-12-20 03:14:39
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I bet you could guess why.
 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-12-20 03:37:58
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I pulled my pld out of retirement recently to help supertank the SKC fights. It was still in Creed gear (with Cizin hands, since I hadn't gotten any Cizin gear before then, and had 1 spare wing) until I could upgrade the Reverence pieces. Started with the Steadfast Shield from Delve, then bought a Killedar. Did fine on the Difficult fights; never really had any problems.

I certainly wouldn't expect to go for the Very Difficult fights, but for moderately difficult stuff (Difficult SKC, Normal AA) that you're doing with friends, it's entirely feasible.

On the other hand, when at all possible I leave the pld job to those who've dedicated more time to it.
 Asura.Natenn
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By Asura.Natenn 2013-12-20 05:51:17
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Leviathan.Draylo said: »
Asura.Natenn said: »
itchi508 said: »
Dynamic belt +1 & Miki legs R15 Dex path prob best bet,
ItemSet 317069
Could use beeline ring, ogiers breeches and enif corraza as options to as well as just keep on Portus collar over Houys gorget. Anguinus Belt has 15acc but no haste.
ah ty, think ill aim for this
ItemSet 317070
Acc+125 DEX+83(i don't have letalis still QQ)

You going to get wrecked.
from what?
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By Pantafernando 2013-12-20 06:12:42
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Whats the minimum lv an ochain must have to face the current hardest content?
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