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 Shiva.Brunwulf
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By Shiva.Brunwulf 2013-08-13 02:12:19
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Bahamut.Jaggerjack said: »
Shiva.Brunwulf said: »
What's a pretty good PDT set now? I am new back since adoulin and wondering if my pdt\mdt sets are still up to snuff. This is my current set and I know I can upgrade hands with other meeble hands and l. helm. Have two dark rings with both having 5% pdt. Need d.ring.


ItemSet 310815


thats not bad but magma gauntlets can *** up a raptor

good eye. Hasn't caused us any problems yet. Just makes him swing for more shield procs while holding.
 kenshynofshiva
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By kenshynofshiva 2013-08-13 10:48:14
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From the mathematical ffxi man himself: This is for mnk but the same theory works across classes as always math don't lie.

Fenrir.Motenten said: »
So, defense vs PDT.

We have a lot of PDT available as mnk, but there's one bit that bugs me -- some the PDT gear we have has significantly lower defense than some of the newer gear coming out.

PDT is obviously vs physical attacks, which means that defense should also apply in any situation you're considering PDT. So how much defense does it take to provide the equivalent of a given amount of PDT?

When figuring this out, the results depend on your existing defense, not on the mob's attack. Going from 400 to 440 defense (10% increase) will have exactly the same percent reduction in damage taken if the mob has 500 attack as if the mob has 1000 attack. The only times it wouldn't would be if the mobs is reaching the attack cap (eg: you're using Counterstance).

So then it's a question of scaling across your possible defense values to see what sort of range of impact a given defense increase amounts to.
Code 
        1%      2%      3%      4%      5%      6%      7%      8%      9%
350     4       8       11      15      19      23      27      31      35
375     4       8       12      16      20      24      29      33      38
400     5       9       13      17      22      26      31      35      40
425     5       9       14      18      23      28      32      37      43
450     5       10      14      19      24      29      34      40      45
475     5       10      15      20      26      31      36      42      47
500     6       11      16      21      27      32      38      44      50
525     6       11      17      22      28      34      40      46      52
550     6       12      18      23      29      36      42      48      55
575     6       12      18      24      31      37      44      51      57
600     7       13      19      26      32      39      46      53      60
625     7       13      20      27      33      40      48      55      62
650     7       14      21      28      35      42      49      57      65
675     7       14      21      29      36      44      51      59      67
700     8       15      22      30      37      45      53      61      70
725     8       15      23      31      39      47      55      64      72
750     8       16      24      32      40      48      57      66      75
775     8       16      24      33      41      50      59      68      77
800     9       17      25      34      43      52      61      70      80


For the above table, for a given amount of starting defense on the left, you'd need to add the provided defense values (which are conservatively rounded) to match the PDT value at the top.

Probably looking at roughly 375 (no Protect) or 550 (Protect V) for most scenarios. However, for a bit of buffer on the expectation, I'll consider 400 and 600 as the starting values.

Gear:

Arhat's Jinpachi: 4% PDT, 19 defense.
Need 17 to 26 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 45 def or better is probably worth using instead.

Options:
Uk'uxkaj Cap: 60 defense, 22 vit (71 total defense, extra fStr reduction).
Whirlpool Mask: 72 defense.
Chocaliztli Mask: 50 defense.



Arhat's Jinpachi +1: 6% PDT, 20 defense.
Need 26 to 39 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 60 def or better is probably worth using instead.

Options:
Uk'uxkaj Cap: 60 defense, 22 vit (71 total defense, extra fStr reduction).
Whirlpool Mask: 72 defense.
Chocaliztli Mask: 50 defense. Adequate if no Protect.



Arhat's Gi: 6% PDT, 38 defense.
Need 26 to 39 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 77 def or better is probably worth using instead.

Options:
Matanca Harness: 77 defense, 15 vit (84-85 total defense).



Arhat's Gi +1: 9% PDT, 39 defense.
Need 40 to 60 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 100 def or better is probably worth using instead.

Options:
Matanca Harness: 77 defense, 15 vit (84-85 total defense).
-- 15 vit is ~4 fStr. It would need to compensate for 2% damage taken to be worth using over Arhat's, which would be for mobs with 200 base damage attacks or lower. Anything significant enough to want to use PDT gear on probably has a higher base damage than that, so this is probably not a good swap.



Denali Wristbands: 2% DT, 17 defense.
Need 9 to 13 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 30 def or better is probably worth using instead.

Options:
Manibozho Gloves: 40 defense.
Leoht Gloves: 38 defense.
Usukane Gote +1: 32 defense.
Omodaka Gote: 31 defense.
Tenryu Tekko +1: 30 defense.
Khepri Wristbands: 30 defense.



Melaco Mittens: 3% PDT, 19 defense.
Need 13 to 19 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 38 def or better is probably worth using instead.

Options:
Manibozho Gloves: 40 defense.


Aside: The two highest defense hand options (and legs, for that matter) are both designed for ranged attacks. Meh. Buremte Gloves would have trounced any other option, if mnk could wear them :(



Darksteel Subligar +1: 3% PDT, 29 defense.
Need 13 to 19 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 49 def or better is probably worth using instead.

Options:
Nahtirah Trousers: 80 defense.
Xux Trousers: 58 defense.
Manibozho Brais: 51 defense.
Abatteur Subligar: 50 defense.
Usukane Hizayoroi +1: 50 defense.



Thurandaut Boots: 3% PDT, 27 defense, 14 vit (34 effective defense).
Need 13 to 19 defense to supplant the PDT value. Anything with 54 def or better is probably worth using instead. (That doesn't count the reduced fStr from the Vit, which should give you roughly 0.5% to 1% more -PDT.)

Options:
Plumb Boots: 46 defense, 5% PDT. These are the highest def feet mnk can wear (which doesn't beat the Thurandaut threshold), and if you have them you'd use for the PDT anyway.



Other gear slots don't tend to have high def options available right now.



Not many changes at the moment, but some things to consider for the future as new gear is added. This is about as maxed out a set as I can come up with for pure defense:

ItemSet 308396

48% PDT (49% with Wiglen Gorget, or capped in Legion)
7 Vit
341 defense (344-345 with the Vit)
19% haste

The more accessible Thurandaut Boots would put it at 22% haste, and you could cap haste with one of the haste hands which are roughly equivalent to Denali.

Mollusca Mantle is nearly the same as Shadow Mantle for long-term averages of physical damage, and you may want to have it for the MDT option in one slot as well.


However, in doing this we've changed our baseline. With Protect V, we'd be at somewhere in the 680-700 defense range (depending on race and a couple gear choices and day of week), which bumps up the required defense differential to match a given PDT value. We can also consider the possibility of food such as Rabbit Pie, which adds another 100 defense to the picture.

In general, if listed options are borderline they probably start falling slightly behind. However most of the top gear is far enough ahead that it stays viable even at a higher base defense.
 Shiva.Brunwulf
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By Shiva.Brunwulf 2013-08-13 12:06:45
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I'm trying to get this right. So if my defense is 650 with magma gauntlets then mikinak having 50 more defense would be roughly -9% pdt compared to the -4% on magma?
 kenshynofshiva
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By kenshynofshiva 2013-08-13 12:16:44
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Shiva.Brunwulf said: »
I'm trying to get this right. So if my defense is 650 with magma gauntlets then mikinak having 50 more defense would be roughly -9% pdt compared to the -4% on magma?

It would be between 7-8% 650 + 50 def if you havent must also factor in the vit adding to d as well not sure if you did. vit/2 = 1 def oh yeah so 9% pdt beating magma by 5% pdt.
 Shiva.Brunwulf
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By Shiva.Brunwulf 2013-08-13 13:32:37
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So this would be a better set to hold delve mobs with, if my math is right. And to test it out I let a top notch DRK beat on me in both sets and this one pulls ahead, considerably. Of course changing the sets the one from above in the original post would have been all dt/pdt pieces.

ItemSet 310815
 Valefor.Omnys
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By Valefor.Omnys 2013-08-13 14:12:13
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When making that comparison, you're forgetting the defense on magma gauntlets which should be good for 3% PDT so you're looking at 7% vs 7-8%.

And then there's physical moves that do flat damage like 1000 Needles, but of course, you can use different sets for different tasks.

Right now, it looks like levels of defense are neck and neck with a fair amount of past pdt gear, or will be soon. (Odin 2 stuff still wins, and will for a while for the additional hp too. Mekira probably has good PDT life left in it, but Ogier's may not--still great otherwise-dt pieces though). -DT gear like Odin's, Mekira's, and Ogier's has the added benefit of reducing all types of damage since few NMs are purely physical.

But yeah, defense's advantage is that the pdt affect doesn't have a cap so imo you'd probably want to aim for pdt cap and then maximum defense, or nice bonuses like that on Buremte Gloves, or Sanus Enis, if you can work it in.
 Lakshmi.Kwontess
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By Lakshmi.Kwontess 2013-08-13 15:45:51
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All of these comparisons depend on not only how much defense you have to begin with, but also how much -DT you have before considering a new piece.

For example, with -45% DT, an additional -4% DT will actually correspond to relative decrease of -7.27% damage.

Similarly, the damage formulas are not quite as simple as dividing your defense into the enemy's attack. The damage taken is definitely related to that number, but it's not always a one to one correspondence.
 Shiva.Brunwulf
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By Shiva.Brunwulf 2013-08-13 16:21:23
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What I did with the math is find out what the defense difference equated to in pdt then compared it to the pdt on the item. If the defense change equlled greater pdt then it wins. Base damage from old pieces was used as the first step.
 Lakshmi.Kwontess
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By Lakshmi.Kwontess 2013-08-13 19:02:37
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Estimating the setup you posted, you have about 950 defense. That includes protect V, but no food. You also have about -35% pdt (assuming your drk rings are -6% each).

Magma gauntlets give 34 defense. With the VIT factored in, Miki. Gauntlets give you 83 defense.

Therefore we are roughly comparing 950 defense at -35% pdt to 901 defense at -39% pdt. This difference of pdt corresponds to an additional reduction of 6.15%. On the other hand the defense is going to correspond to (roughly) a 5.16% reduction.

For a more extreme example 750 defense with -50% pdt will be roughly the same as 900 defense with -40% pdt. However, 900 defense is a 20% increase in defense and it only corresponds with -10% pdt.

If you want a quick way to compare two sets, I would recommend the following method:

1.) Figure out your pdt and subtract that from 100. (here I am counting pdt as a positive number as it sounds confusing to add it to 100)

2.) Divide that into your defense.

Compare the numbers for each set you are considering. Whichever set has the largest value is the better set.

For example if you had -40% pdt and 700 defense you would get:

700/(100-40) = 11.67.

But if you had -50% pdt and 600 defense you would get:

600/(100-50) = 12

Therefore the latter set would be slightly better. Comparing your set with miki. versus your set with magma we get 14.62 versus 14.77 respectively.

This is not exact, especially if two sets are close. Also if your defense gets really low this will also be less accurate. But if there is a significant difference, then this should allow you to quickly eyeball which is better.

Of course none of this speaks to magic evasion, attack, enmity, or anything else on the equipment.
 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-08-13 19:43:27
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You quoted the original analysis, but left out the bit where I got more into how existing PDT also affected it.

For simplicity, I put together a spreadsheet to run the calculations with. It's available in the same location as my DPS spreadsheets (.xlsx in the top folder, .xls in the subfolder): Google Drive link

Aside from the other things Kwontess noted, it also doesn't address how any vit on the equipment translates to damage reduction, since it should usually reduce the fStr portion of the mob's damage. Vit is not dependent on existing vit, but it does multiply with PDT. If you treat the PDT reduction as baseline, the more PDT you have, the less additional vit is worth when trying to look at the combined effect (mainly for the purpose of then comparing it with defense).

EG: If a mob has 200 nominal base damage, and you add 16 vit to reduce that by 4 fStr to 196 (thus, 2% reduction), and already have 30% PDT, you don't get a total of 32% damage reduction, you get 31.4% damage reduction.

It's probably safe to figure vit % reduction as 1/2 to 3/4 of what you would have originally estimated before adding it to PDT, if you're using the combined value to compare PDT with defense.
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 Valefor.Omnys
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By Valefor.Omnys 2013-08-15 00:17:40
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Thinking more about this, one key change I'd make to the set, if you really want to dequip Phorcys Sabatons, would be to use the new bayld feet over miki feet. 7 defense less, and 3% PDT.

New skirmish boots, augmented, will beat all 3.

Gorney Sollerets
 Shiva.Brunwulf
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By Shiva.Brunwulf 2013-08-15 11:18:00
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Not that I want to. I'm just trying to find the new best pdt set with -11% pdt sword. All the changes and item levels are a handfull. This is what happens when you trust me to do math for myself.
 Carbuncle.Galmaximas
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By Carbuncle.Galmaximas 2013-08-17 11:10:48
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all of this mathy stuff hurts my head can someone just post an overall optimal Def/PDT gear set for current end-game content (delve NM holding / supertanking fodder between NM?) Martel I choose you! lol
 Otomis
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By Otomis 2013-08-19 10:50:16
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If you are just kiting and sac'ing, would it be better to use a Terra's Staff + Eisen Grip? seeing as you are not blocking as much as having things hit you in the back?

EDIT:

Something like this:

ItemSet 299556

With right augments offer 50% PDT, + shadow mantle procs? for kiting?
 Otomis
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By Otomis 2013-08-22 05:56:19
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"Fenrir.Motenten said: »"
Code 
        1%      2%      3%      4%      5%      6%      7%      8%      9%
350     4       8       11      15      19      23      27      31      35
375     4       8       12      16      20      24      29      33      38
400     5       9       13      17      22      26      31      35      40
425     5       9       14      18      23      28      32      37      43
450     5       10      14      19      24      29      34      40      45
475     5       10      15      20      26      31      36      42      47
500     6       11      16      21      27      32      38      44      50
525     6       11      17      22      28      34      40      46      52
550     6       12      18      23      29      36      42      48      55
575     6       12      18      24      31      37      44      51      57
600     7       13      19      26      32      39      46      53      60
625     7       13      20      27      33      40      48      55      62
650     7       14      21      28      35      42      49      57      65
675     7       14      21      29      36      44      51      59      67
700     8       15      22      30      37      45      53      61      70
725     8       15      23      31      39      47      55      64      72
750     8       16      24      32      40      48      57      66      75
775     8       16      24      33      41      50      59      68      77
800     9       17      25      34      43      52      61      70      80


"For the above table, for a given amount of starting defense on the left, you'd need to add the provided defense values (which are conservatively rounded) to match the PDT value at the top."

Going PDT. Just asking for physical.

So: Cizin Helm
DEF:94 HP+28 MP+21 STR+21 DEX+16 VIT+21 AGI+16 INT+15 MND+15 CHR+15 Evasion+22 Magic Evasion+26 "Magic Def. Bonus"+1 Enhances "Fast Cast" effect Enmity+5 Haste+7%
LV 99 WAR PLD DRK DRG
(IF 3~4% PDT Aug)
Is better to use instead of.

Laeradr Helm
DEF:50 HP+75 VIT+13 Damage taken -8% "Slow"+2%
LV 99 WAR PLD DRK

But,Laeradr Breastplate
DEF:80 HP+100 Damage taken -11% Enmity+9 "Slow"+2%
LV 99 WAR PLD DRK

Nothing can beat Laeradr this still, Even if.
Cizin Mail: (Even with 4% PDT)
DEF:118 HP+43 MP+31 STR+25 DEX+17 VIT+25 AGI+17 INT+17 MND+17 CHR+17 Accuracy+10 Evasion+28 Magic Evasion+39 "Magic Def. Bonus"+3 Haste+3%
LV 99 WAR PLD DRK DRG

EDIT: Mainly trying to find the highest PDT + Def set for super tanking a horde of delve mobs while DD teams kill bosses. Would like to be able to hold all the way through with out laying my dead body all over the place in hall ways, often in main parties way. I would like to try and learn this roll instead of playing Cor/Whm becasue I am sick of PLDs not knowing how to sac and the mages getting wrecked but mobs that got let go while fighting bosses.

Having lots of kiting/Sac exp using many jobs to do so in old school content. Just want to find the optimal set for this using pld. Possible with out dying till I get to Tojil room.

/Sch for high enhancing +SS buffs and sublimation, or /War for just keeping defender up and having voke.
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By Sylph.Feary 2013-09-01 12:27:34
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i really wish this guide would be updated by someone actually playing or active on the forums.
 Valefor.Omnys
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By Valefor.Omnys 2013-09-01 12:42:14
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Otomis said: »
Having lots of kiting/Sac exp using many jobs to do so in old school content. Just want to find the optimal set for this using pld. Possible with out dying till I get to Tojil room.

I've been able to kite the whole zone since any of this high defense stuff. It's a bad idea for a few reasons though.

Things do go wrong sometimes, but more importantly you're very likely to lose some agro on such a wide pack, some will stop chasing you and hit a random person in the group.

What we do is, I pull mata, and any other NMs near him, we kill those 3, any trash if I have several, and then we take off. I grab everything, and if there's a lot, I'll deliberately twilight-die while they're fighting Kurma or peiste and usually weakness is gone by the time both are dead. In either case, Tojil is an easy pull, weakened or not (since you don't have aegis, you might invest in some weakened HP gear. I've never been one-shot by tojil, but it's possible?)

Quote:
/Sch for high enhancing +SS buffs and sublimation, or /War for just keeping defender up and having voke.

Honestly, tried them all and I prefer /war. Don't forget also, Tacos are cheap and at high levels of defensse, are good for about 12% more PDT based on Montenten's numbers. Hitting 1300 defense with defender and tacos is not impossible.

To be fair, my enhancing is capped, but if yours is lacking, /sch might do you better.

(I do like /dnc for foret, to erase Viruna off myself if I'm holding the Orobon for a bit)
 Phoenix.Neosutrax
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By Phoenix.Neosutrax 2013-09-05 14:33:26
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Sylph.Feary said: »
i really wish this guide would be updated by someone actually playing or active on the forums.

If you or someone wants to post/pm some updated replacement sets, I'd be happy to update the guide, and even include where each of the pieces come from.

As for someone still playing, I talked to one of the mods and asked if someone active could take it over, but they said that an interested party would just need to make their own from scratch.
 
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-09-05 15:17:50
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Well, now I've got the question of what I'd put in a PLD guide bouncing around in my head. Whether or not I'll actually write one remains to be seen. It'd be a fairly massive undertaking. Particularly as I'm a terrible typist, and not much better as a writer.
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 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-09-05 15:33:52
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Well, now I've got the question of what I'd put in a PLD guide bouncing around in my head. Whether or not I'll actually write one remains to be seen. It'd be a fairly massive undertaking. Particularly as I'm a terribly typist, and not much better as a writer.
You might also get cornered in to doing the drg guide.
 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2013-09-06 15:01:51
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I don't play pld (or even have it leveled.) But for other reasons i was just playing around, seeing if there were enough pieces to make a pure DT- set. Afterwords i came here to see if there were any other pieces id missed. But i am curious after reading some of the info in the pld guide in the OP.

This was the set i was merely playing around with:
ItemSet 312486

-46% DT and a -5%m/pdt dark ring

What I'm curious about were the following statements.

Quote:
And with the updates to Aegis it now defies the 50% MDT cap and allows the wearer to reach the new hardcap of 87.5% MDT

Quote:
The great and powerful, and shiny, Burtgang! This sword is one of the top trophies for Paladin these days, and fortunately has a lot of functionality. With the new update the sword now breaks the PDT cap, allowing the user to get to -68% PDT.

feasible or not aside, would that mean having that DT- set equipped with both a burtang and aegis would actually have a pld capped on each p/mdt at there higher lvls?
 
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2013-09-07 10:13:14
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Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »
Pdt caps at 87.5% yeah but only burtgang or pet mobs can surpass 50% so you'd need 47.5% pdt on that sword to cap as pld, will probably never happen But yeah it's easy for an aegis pld to reach 50%pdt 87.5% mdt at the same time sure.

Pdt caps at 87.5% as well as mdt? (inregaurds to these items)

and would the -50% DT set plus the Burtgang and aeiges leave a pld at -87.5%MDT and -68%PDT? (overkill on magic i no.)
 Bahamut.Gorion
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By Bahamut.Gorion 2013-09-07 14:03:55
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Anyone happen to know what the fast cast on the Cizin Helm is?
 Leviathan.Encyclopedia
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By Leviathan.Encyclopedia 2013-09-07 14:54:25
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Bahamut.Gorion said: »
Anyone happen to know what the fast cast on the Cizin Helm is?

For the fast cast:
-5% Spell Casting Time.
-2.5% Spell Recast
+ the 7% pure haste.

Tested Cizin Helm vs Creed Armet+Zoran's Belt using Hasso'd Reprisal.

With 2% or more PDT, this should stomp all over Ogier's Helm for purely physical damage.

Found this via Cizin Helm Item Page in the comments.
 
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2013-09-08 09:05:36
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and there is no other PDT items for pld that pass the 50% cap other then the sword? Making i impossible to reach that 87.5% cap
 
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2013-09-08 10:07:44
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just to make sure, only the sword can surpase the cap right? Not the sword allows cap to be surpassed. (meaning 60%- gear plus sword still only = 50% +sword)
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