Capital Punishment

It's the appeal process that drags it out, which is very necessary.

How can you argue that the judiciary branch of government is the same as the executive or legislative?

Especially in a murder case. There is a jury present who all have to decide that the person is guilty. It's in no way like the other branches of government.

No one has a right to take life, even if the person your punishing took a life.

The murderer has no right to decide who lives or dies, nor does anyone else, so what right as humans do we have to decide if people should be put to death for their crimes, the point of atonement, the point of "paying" for one's crime is to allow the one who did this act to know suffering in time and learn that, that sort of suffering can be avoid by following the law.

Clean up the inadequacys of the system to the point where guilty is guilty. If you were found to be guilty with NO reasonable doubt that should be enough. Will innocent people be killed? Not if people like you do your jobs properly. To my understanding if there is the slightest of doubts expressed by a jury the death penalty is not possible, or am i incorrect in that fact?

It's still government. Large, unwieldy bureaucracies led by judges and district attorneys that are often elected public officials.

My point is, because it's such a final and irreparable act, I'm increasingly unwilling to grant that absolute power to a system that is only "usually" or "mostly" accurate. I just can't trust the people or the government to get this one right, and there doesn't seem to be much demonstrable and objective benefit to the costs and risk anyway.

It's not a moral or ideological decision to me. Every fiber of my being still wants to personally rip the head off every murderer and child molester I see.

But social policy can't be about emotion. It has to be about cold, hard logic, applied in the least invasive and most ruthlessly efficient manner possible. And the death penalty just doesn't seem like it meets those criteria to me, anymore.

As I said, killing them is too nice, make them suffer in prison.

@Cata; Exactly. Prison is supposed to be a punishment, and I think inmates should get the bare minimum required to stay in reasonable health, nothing more. So that means basic food, exercise, social interaction (with other inmates) and unfortunately, health cover.

If the death sentence really must be active, there needs to be a fair amount of restraint involved. Something like no-one being put to death within 5 years of being committed, so that there's a good chance of the wrongly accused being found out. When they are put to death, why is it so damn expensive? These people are no better than animals, and we slaughter animals humanely by the hundreds of thousands every day.

Some of this may already be how it is, I have no knowledge on prison or the justice system, just saying how I think it aught to be.

Human Rights tend to make things a long process. it is something we have to accept.

You have a point when it comes to overly zealous prosecutors. It's true that a lot of people who seek the death penalty often do it for emotional reason.

It's still one issue I could go either way on.

All do it for an emotional reason, there's no logical reason in our system to murder prisoners.

As far as the Death Penalty goes, I'm on the border of the subject in general, for reasons I will explain:

I'm against the death penalty because of what others have already presented.
* The cost - yes it does in fact cost millions more to kill someone then it does to keep them in prison.
* Innocence - There is ALWAYS the chance that a convicted person maybe innocent, no science or evidence is 100% due to the very fact that we weren't present during the commitment of the crime. Perspectivsim~ Read up on it.
* Death "The Easy Way Out" - This argument varies, for the reasons that, like others have said, some prisons provide commodities to their prisoners such as t.v, an education, recreation, etc., so one could argue both ways.

And now:
I'm for the death penalty because if it were my family member, my brother, my sister, my parents, the convicted person harmed, I would want to kill the mother f*cker in the most painful way possible. I think we all would. An example I always use is, if you were out in the middle of no where with a gun in your hand and you had the man who murdered your wife and child right in front of you--given the opportunity of never being caught--what would you do? Would you seize him and call the police? Or??? Exactly~~

Which brings us back to the "Death is the easy way out" argument. The fact of the matter is, the Death Penalty can't be cruel and unusual as our constitution says and therefore, the convicted person can't die just as you would want him to (in the most painful way possible). On the contrary, the death penalty methods must be as least painful as it can possibly be to be considered "legal." Therefore it comes down strictly to the persons beliefs, (i.e - you're going to hell) because in reality death is "an easy way out" for crimes committed.

My Solution:
I believe we should eliminate the death penalty but place all those who were up for death row in solitary confinement. That is to say, take away all their recreation/freedoms prisons provide and stick them in a cell with nothing, no human contact, no T.V., no books, completely nothing. To me, arguably, that is a punishment far worse than death itself, just watch this documentary and be enlightened:

If you don't want to watch the whole thing skip to 6:30 and watch it from there:



Stick all those who committed haneous crimes which (would) qualify for the death penalty in solitary confinement, knowing the psychological and physical effects of it, I believe are a far worse punishment then "death;" I also believe it's something families would be more satisfied with.

Aye but the reason most people that are for the death penalty are for it for some false sense of justice that they don't really get and it's purely an illogical and emotional stance.

As far as solitary goes, I'm all for it but good luck trying to convince those who don't want to pay for their confinement IE: people who don't realize it's part of the cost of society.

Just throw them on some island to fend for themselves. Cheap and if they live it's up to them. Obviously gaurd said island. *** keep spending tons of money on people clearly not fit for society.

Or at least make the criminals work their time off. Chain gangs yes please. I'm sure there is alot of things we could build that we aren't right now for them. Make them work the jobs that no one wants except mexicans. At rediculous hours.

Yes, I agree; one of the greatest reason for support of the death penalty is in fact the illogical emotional false sense of justice. It all comes down to the persons capability of understanding (I usually refer to it as their education level because arguably the more educated you are the more proficient your perspectival understanding tends to be). For this we must recognize, if the victims or victims families are capable of understanding that death will only take life away from the convicted felon but that is it. On the contrary, the victim(s) must live with the life long pain from the aftermath of the crime committed. Instead, punishing the felon with a method concurrent to solitary confinement, is much longer retribution than a quick and painless death. Although, again, to a victim or victims family which is in emotional distraught, add to that (the possibility of) a lessened capability of understanding, a punishment like solitary confinement is far less (or not at all) favorable as opposed to the death penalty. In essence, the only solution to this is sitting the victim(s) or victims family down and enlightening them, making then recognize that a punishment like solitary confinement is far more detrimental both physically and emotionally then death itself, but we just don't do that or won't do that in our society. This is ultimately why a solution like solitary confinement will predominately fall through.

Along the same lines, there will always be someone who opposes an idea or set of ideas presented on any subject matter. Just as you said, those who don't recognize the underlying cost prisons have on our society, tend to automatically be against any new methodology presented within its system; I like to refer to these people as the close minded ignorant tools of society. Similarly, there will be those humanitarians who are against any form of punishment in general; then there are those whose beliefs conflict with punishment methods presented, etc, etc. There are too many oppositions to analyze and therefore the only thing we can do is present a solution to an ongoing debate such as the death penalty and hope it appeals to the majority. Furthermore, recognizing that the larger part of our society doesn't have (the education) level to understand perspectives and complex argumentation, a solution like the one I presented will typically receive little to know recognition.

P.S. Yes, I understand education levels aren't the only thing that influence ones level of understanding. Arguably some people who didn't go to college are greater at understanding arguments then those who did and vice versa, this is why I tend to put that commentary in parenthesis. Being a Humanities Major with a Minor in education, I tend to recognize that education "can" increase our level of understanding.

Throwing them on an island, I believe is the "Hollywood" influenced solution to the issue, the show Prison Break comes to mind, where they did just that. A inexpensive uncharted solution yes but sadly something like that would likely never patch through in the United States (possibly in other countries lol).

Criminals working their time off is an economically favorable solution to the issue; although, in terms of depth of punishment, seems a little lenient to me. This is why I ultimately lean toward solitary confinement, it's a punishment arguably worse then death itself.

I think a lot of people wpuld disagree with you here. When someone knowingly and purposefully takes the life of another person they are making a very clear statement on how much value they give to life.

I think an argument can be made that society should have a different value on the life of said person vs the life of someone who is innocent of the same crimes.

I'm not saying I agree with that view, but I can understand that perspective.

I don't see the point in killing someone because he killed someone.Makes you as much as guilty as the murderer is.

LOL that movie was awesome, but good thing it's not real lol

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Coincidental ad?

Jaerik's got good points, and I'm close to his camp, though not quite swung over yet.

I have a good friend who spent ~10 years in prison, and assures me it's not what you see on TV. The minimum security stuff can get pretty lax, but if you're in for life for murder, odds are pretty good life can't get much worse.

In a purely philosophical sense, I'm all for the death penalty, not to discourage offenses but to rid our society of the menaces that some people turn out to be. In fact, I'd apply it much more than it gets used. I would like to see it used in most murder cases, with minimal exceptions.

However, the practical application makes this too difficult. Since our legal system isn't able to do things in a more cost effective manner, and the frequency with which errors are made is too high, I'm mostly against it these days. My real preference would be to reserve capital punishment for very rare cases, where it is likely they will cause even more damage beyond what they've done. An example would be a repeat offender who is likely to attempt to take the lives of other convicts, guard staff, etc.

Will you offer your life up to be that innocent sacrifice then?

damn don't make me older then I am, it was 5 years ;)

Texas is notorious for our death row and capital punishment. While in there at the ripe age of 18 I worked in the maintenance department and did quite a bit of work in the ad-seg and solitary confinement sections of the prison. It was a living hell. Men that I hadn't seen in a year or two in the main part of the prison who were intelligent men who I could have an educated conversation with were nearly reduced to drooling idiots. The psychological impact of complete isolation is hard to explain and listening to these people talk, especially the woman mentioning the physical contact aspect is true. Even a simple handshake can make all the difference in an inmates life because its something that connects them to their life before whatever put them in prison.

Two weeks before my release when I was 23 years old I was able to tour the "death house" located in Huntsville and it was an eye opening experience. It really made me realize that every single action that I take has a reaction, and it could be just as easy for me to end up strapped down on that table as it was for me to walk away.

As for my view upon the death penalty, if there is absolutely no chance of rehabilitation of the individual and if the person is proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt through DNA testing or whatever means necessary and it will bring some form of closure to the family of the victims, then yes, I'm for the death penalty. I actually wish that they would publicize the executions again as to cement to the public the consequences of certain actions.

There also reaches a point when people become institutionalized beyond a point of rehabilitation. I've met numerous men who had been on death row and had their sentences commuted to life without parole. Being inquisitive by nature, I asked some of them if they were happier getting to live, many of them said its like being dead on the inside but having to continue to live.

That's not being institutionalized, but it is a point I've tried to make every time these threads come up.

First, institutionalized is when you just get so used to living on the inside, that you don't care about the outside, people who are institutionalized often serve 2-5 year sentences, get out, and go right back in, they repeat this process multiple times until they recognize what's going on and break the cycle, some never do. It's a bit like domesticated animals, they get used to a routine, and it's hard to break. The same reason domesticated, but regionally local animals into the wild after being cared for, is a near death sentence. Few will adjust, a lot will just die. Same thing applies, prisoners get used to a routine, they get used to the rules on the inside, and when you release them into the 'wild' they just can't handle it.

Second, I hate the fact that people hide behind the guise of "they did something bad, they deserve to die, they need to pay in the worst possible way" but in reality, they just want the cheap way out (which isn't even the case). You don't kill someone when you want them to suffer, you kill someone when you just don't want to deal with them. When you want them to suffer, you lock them up in a cell 23 hours a day with nothing but a metal toilet/sink combo, some paper and a mattress..

It may not seem bad at first, but after a few months, it becomes a true living hell. Hell isn't filled with fire and lava and demons, it's filled with cages.

I wasn't referring to the death penalty commutes being the institutionalized ones. I saw so many men get out and end right back up in there, hell I saw one guy rob someone right after he left the release unit before he even cashed his meager $100 check just cause he missed the strict routine in place in the prison and didn't want to cope with the outside. He was out maybe 3 whole minutes as a free man and committed the crime knowing full well it would send him back.

Some guys get used to it in there, they get a routine going, and that's what they're used to. They've been in so long that it's their life now and the events of the outside world don't matter.

I spent a month in solitary back in 1998 and by day 2 I was ready to lose my mind. It's pure hell. I can't really even define the sensory deprivation that takes place in there with no one to talk to, nothing to do, just absolutely nothing but think. Some men kill themselves, other men do stupid ***to get killed by other inmates, and others get defeated to the point, the resign themselves to living in the hell. Be it religious belief or personal morals, some men just live in the hell hoping that day will be their last.

Is it the same punishment that their victims endured? No by a long shot. Some victims are killed instantly, others suffer a long time. But one thing is for certain, each day in there no matter what you're in for, if your in a gang or not, each day the guy next to you can snap and kill you or make you wish you were dead. You never know who's making your food in the kitchen, and trust me, there's ways of making people suffer for the rest of their lives just by tampering with their food. Jailhouse justice is honestly more horrific then any capital punishment which could be imposed.

That's my point. I don't oppose the death penalty, because I'm not against killing people. But that's just simply not how you make someone suffer. I'm a Texan, and I've had a loved one murdered, I don't want him put to death, that's too simple. I want him (the one who did it) to spend the rest of his miserable meaningless life living in an 8x10 cell most of his day, and proving how much of a man he really is when some bigger, badder inmate decides he has a purty mouth the rest..

Maybe it's because I've spent extended times in jail, maybe it's because I'm not objective because someone I loved was taken from me, but I know how you make someone suffer, and I want people to suffer for crimes rather than giving them the easy way out.

I'd consider being locked away in a small cell for the rest of your life cruel and unusual punishment.

Morally, yes. Legally, no.

Although I would be happy to go back to executions as the real answer to everything, if we could go back to executions of older ages, and it could start with my brother's killer.

Brazen Bull, The Pear, Iron Maiden, Boiling in oil, Draw and Quarter, there's even this really nifty thing where you were hung by your ankles, legs spread, and two men with a saw would saw from your groin to you head, you actually would live through a surprising amount of it. Would be extremely painful, but you would probably be fully conscious up until they started getting to the chest cavity.