DNC Decent Tank?
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DNC decent tank?
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 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-23 15:51:57
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
without subbing thf or dnc and stabbing at your gear for more evasion, you spend more time casting shadows then actually doing anything in comparison to a dnc/nin for example
Um how so? Nin has 13 more base skill. Dnc has evasoin bonus for another 35 evasion. nin has yonin for another 30... also Blade HI nins actually use the agi from evasoin kat so no big loss of dmg there

So nin has more base evasion check. Nin gets 66% more shadows on Ni... how exactly is it spending more time casting shadows than dnc?
 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 15:53:53
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Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Asura.Tristean said:
Well thankfully I was in a shell that let me tank on DNC. But also refuse to wear pink gear. Not that I don't like pink... but I don't like shopping at walmart and abyssea gear is the equivalent of shopping at walmart... same with the the dominion daggers... ugh.

You should also look into getting an auric dagger for tanking. Angr Harpe is a decent main hand dagger for DDing.

I personally use my own NIN spells to trigger grellow and make the NIN come THF. The only booger sometimes is kurayami. But a full nebula set with lvl 5 weakened daze should fix that right up with merited ninjutsu.

BWAHAHAHA

you make me sad :(........

you just shat on this and said use angr harpe (which i thought was cool for maybe a week) which is far to heavy to even bother using with no real good stats added aside from dmg

Correct me if I am wrong, but the critical damage only works for WSs if main handed. I remember reading something about it, just can't remember at the moment.
that's crit rate

Meh, I will have to do some digging I guess.

Random lolakahzam thread. Found it, and now if it is true or not I leave to you.
it's true, even works with ranged attacks, for example i use that yata on my rng, and i dont need to use my parser to tell me that it increases dmg.
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By 2011-02-23 15:55:58
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 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 15:56:02
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Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
without subbing thf or dnc and stabbing at your gear for more evasion, you spend more time casting shadows then actually doing anything in comparison to a dnc/nin for example
Um how so? Nin has 13 more base skill. Dnc has evasoin bonus for another 35 evasion. nin has yonin for another 30... also Blade HI nins actually use the agi from evasoin kat so no big loss of dmg there

So nin has more base evasion check. Nin gets 66% more shadows on Ni... how exactly is it spending more time casting shadows than dnc?
had a similar arguement about this before, dnc winds up with about 40 more evasion than nin does even with yonin.
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 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-23 16:01:19
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
auric had it's use when it came out, but the only real thing it offers is a 5% increase in DW, which is nice for the casual Epeen "i hit delay cap without brd) but it kinda screws a 20 hit build, and the dps on it is easily replaced by even an Eva kila.
There is that subtle blow thing... also it's eva kila's dps only appears to be better because you aren't account for DW. Offhanding auric actually increases your dps by a very small amount
 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 16:03:56
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Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
auric had it's use when it came out, but the only real thing it offers is a 5% increase in DW, which is nice for the casual Epeen "i hit delay cap without brd) but it kinda screws a 20 hit build, and the dps on it is easily replaced by even an Eva kila.
There is that subtle blow thing... also it's eva kila's dps only appears to be better because you aren't account for DW. Offhanding auric actually increases your dps by a very small amount
the subtle blow is kind of negligiable with the other relevant gear out there, not to mention subtle blow's "reduced effectiveness" with the addition of agi affecting enemy TP gain.
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-23 16:04:04
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
without subbing thf or dnc and stabbing at your gear for more evasion, you spend more time casting shadows then actually doing anything in comparison to a dnc/nin for example
Um how so? Nin has 13 more base skill. Dnc has evasoin bonus for another 35 evasion. nin has yonin for another 30... also Blade HI nins actually use the agi from evasoin kat so no big loss of dmg there

So nin has more base evasion check. Nin gets 66% more shadows on Ni... how exactly is it spending more time casting shadows than dnc?
had a similar arguement about this before, dnc winds up with about 40 more evasion than nin does even with yonin.
Even assuming min yonin amount and fully merited closed position it would only be 27 more. At it's higher end and if dnc doesn't merit closed position nin will have more. I'd like to see where you are coming up with this 40
 Asura.Eeek
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By Asura.Eeek 2011-02-23 16:04:23
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Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
auric had it's use when it came out, but the only real thing it offers is a 5% increase in DW, which is nice for the casual Epeen "i hit delay cap without brd) but it kinda screws a 20 hit build, and the dps on it is easily replaced by even an Eva kila.
There is that subtle blow thing... also it's eva kila's dps only appears to be better because you aren't account for DW. Offhanding auric actually increases your dps by a very small amount

I don't know about anyone else, but when I equip one or two AGI Kilas, I have something in mind other than pure damage. Why would you even do a damage comparison between AGI Kila +2 and Auric Dagger?
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 Asura.Eeek
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By Asura.Eeek 2011-02-23 16:05:44
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Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
without subbing thf or dnc and stabbing at your gear for more evasion, you spend more time casting shadows then actually doing anything in comparison to a dnc/nin for example
Um how so? Nin has 13 more base skill. Dnc has evasoin bonus for another 35 evasion. nin has yonin for another 30... also Blade HI nins actually use the agi from evasoin kat so no big loss of dmg there

So nin has more base evasion check. Nin gets 66% more shadows on Ni... how exactly is it spending more time casting shadows than dnc?
had a similar arguement about this before, dnc winds up with about 40 more evasion than nin does even with yonin.
Even assuming min yonin amount and fully merited closed position it would only be 27 more. At it's higher end and if dnc doesn't merit closed position nin will have more. I'd like to see where you are coming up with this 40

Who *** cares about NIN or Triplus Dagger? Those have nothing to do with DNC. At least the Yataghan tangent was somewhat worthwhile.
 
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By 2011-02-23 16:06:03
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 Fenrir.Rinnsi
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By Fenrir.Rinnsi 2011-02-23 16:06:38
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speaking of closed position, would it be worth to merit that, if i plan to be a DNC Tank?
-Closed+fan?
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-23 16:07:37
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
auric had it's use when it came out, but the only real thing it offers is a 5% increase in DW, which is nice for the casual Epeen "i hit delay cap without brd) but it kinda screws a 20 hit build, and the dps on it is easily replaced by even an Eva kila.
There is that subtle blow thing... also it's eva kila's dps only appears to be better because you aren't account for DW. Offhanding auric actually increases your dps by a very small amount
the subtle blow is kind of negligiable with the other relevant gear out there, not to mention subtle blow's "reduced effectiveness" with the addition of agi affecting enemy TP gain.
dnc only has 20% you can only get another 12% without dipping into haste/DW slots. And the addition of the agi effect doesn't reduce it's effectiveness one bit.
 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 16:08:05
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Asura.Eeek said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
auric had it's use when it came out, but the only real thing it offers is a 5% increase in DW, which is nice for the casual Epeen "i hit delay cap without brd) but it kinda screws a 20 hit build, and the dps on it is easily replaced by even an Eva kila.
There is that subtle blow thing... also it's eva kila's dps only appears to be better because you aren't account for DW. Offhanding auric actually increases your dps by a very small amount

I don't know about anyone else, but when I equip one or two AGI Kilas, I have something in mind other than pure damage. Why would you even do a damage comparison between AGI Kila +2 and Auric Dagger?
perfectionist i guess, minor increase in dmg means a minor increase in hate holding and a minor increase of finishing the fight faster.

Asura.Eeek said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
without subbing thf or dnc and stabbing at your gear for more evasion, you spend more time casting shadows then actually doing anything in comparison to a dnc/nin for example
Um how so? Nin has 13 more base skill. Dnc has evasoin bonus for another 35 evasion. nin has yonin for another 30... also Blade HI nins actually use the agi from evasoin kat so no big loss of dmg there

So nin has more base evasion check. Nin gets 66% more shadows on Ni... how exactly is it spending more time casting shadows than dnc?
had a similar arguement about this before, dnc winds up with about 40 more evasion than nin does even with yonin.
Even assuming min yonin amount and fully merited closed position it would only be 27 more. At it's higher end and if dnc doesn't merit closed position nin will have more. I'd like to see where you are coming up with this 40

Who *** cares about NIN or Triplus Dagger? Those have nothing to do with DNC. At least the Yataghan tangent was somewhat worthwhile.
my apologies i kind of took a shot at nin earlier in the topic.
 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 16:11:06
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Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
auric had it's use when it came out, but the only real thing it offers is a 5% increase in DW, which is nice for the casual Epeen "i hit delay cap without brd) but it kinda screws a 20 hit build, and the dps on it is easily replaced by even an Eva kila.
There is that subtle blow thing... also it's eva kila's dps only appears to be better because you aren't account for DW. Offhanding auric actually increases your dps by a very small amount
the subtle blow is kind of negligiable with the other relevant gear out there, not to mention subtle blow's "reduced effectiveness" with the addition of agi affecting enemy TP gain.
dnc only has 20% you can only get another 12% without dipping into haste/DW slots. And the addition of the agi effect doesn't reduce it's effectiveness one bit.
hence the " " >.> capping subtle blow and agi subtle blow can be balanced easier. heed ring is a nice item for tanking, and additionally you (if you make it to shinryu) would be better off using twilight dagger's tp stealing trait.
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-23 16:14:39
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
hence the " " >.> capping subtle blow and agi subtle blow can be balanced easier. heed ring is a nice item for tanking, and additionally you (if you make it to shinryu) would be better off using twilight dagger's tp stealing trait.
I know about heed ring. Hence my 12% statement. And it's not really about balance between the 2. They are seperate with there own seperate caps.

In fact if you are going to bring up stealing tp the agi effect actually makes getting close to the subtle blow cap even more effective.

twilight + auric with only suppa for DW and capped agi effects and subtle blow would put you at only giving the mob 3.7 tp per attack round (discounting double/triple attack missed etc). Theoretically you could drain almost as fast as you give. Though doesn't twilight overwrite sambas?
 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 16:22:16
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Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
hence the " " >.> capping subtle blow and agi subtle blow can be balanced easier. heed ring is a nice item for tanking, and additionally you (if you make it to shinryu) would be better off using twilight dagger's tp stealing trait.
I know about heed ring. Hence my 12% statement. And it's not really about balance between the 2. They are seperate with there own seperate caps. In fact if you are going to bring up stealing tp the agi effect actually makes getting close to the subtle blow cap even more effective. twilight + auric with only suppa for DW and capped agi effects and subtle blow would put you at only giving the mob 3.7 tp per attack round (discounting double/triple attack missed etc)

charis casaque +2
charis necklace
slither gloves

etc etc etc

with 200 agi and capped subtle blow you should only be feeding the mob .3 tp a hit not 3.7.

edit: yes twilight overwrites samba, but if you are using haste samba only 1 of your daggers needs to recieve the haste samba affect to recieve the effect of it.
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 Asura.Eeek
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By Asura.Eeek 2011-02-23 16:23:49
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Asura.Eeek said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
auric had it's use when it came out, but the only real thing it offers is a 5% increase in DW, which is nice for the casual Epeen "i hit delay cap without brd) but it kinda screws a 20 hit build, and the dps on it is easily replaced by even an Eva kila.
There is that subtle blow thing... also it's eva kila's dps only appears to be better because you aren't account for DW. Offhanding auric actually increases your dps by a very small amount

I don't know about anyone else, but when I equip one or two AGI Kilas, I have something in mind other than pure damage. Why would you even do a damage comparison between AGI Kila +2 and Auric Dagger?
perfectionist i guess, minor increase in dmg means a minor increase in hate holding and a minor increase of finishing the fight faster.

But AGI Kila +2 isn't a damage dagger, at least I don't use it as such. I use one/two AGI Kilas to increase survivability, decrease the amount of time I spend recasting shadows, and decrease the amount of TP I use curing myself (I can't break the habit of curing myself after a big hit/nuke even with support around).

I go with other daggers for damage.

EDIT: And by the way (directed more at Dasva), my default TP set has 44% Subtle Blow: 20% from JT, 7% from Charis Casaque +1, 7% from Heed Ring, 5% from Charis Necklace, and 5% from Rajas Ring.
 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 16:27:38
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Asura.Eeek said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Asura.Eeek said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
auric had it's use when it came out, but the only real thing it offers is a 5% increase in DW, which is nice for the casual Epeen "i hit delay cap without brd) but it kinda screws a 20 hit build, and the dps on it is easily replaced by even an Eva kila.
There is that subtle blow thing... also it's eva kila's dps only appears to be better because you aren't account for DW. Offhanding auric actually increases your dps by a very small amount

I don't know about anyone else, but when I equip one or two AGI Kilas, I have something in mind other than pure damage. Why would you even do a damage comparison between AGI Kila +2 and Auric Dagger?
perfectionist i guess, minor increase in dmg means a minor increase in hate holding and a minor increase of finishing the fight faster.

But AGI Kila +2 isn't a damage dagger, at least I don't use it as such. I use one/two AGI Kilas to increase survivability, decrease the amount of time I spend recasting shadows, and decrease the amount of TP I use curing myself (I can't break the habit of curing myself after a big hit/nuke even with support around).

I go with other daggers for damage.
i was comparing it to auric, i have my personal tp set put me right at the point that any increase in dw will take me from a 20 hit to a 21 hit, while most of the time there are many other factors such as parrying, double/triple/qruadruple attacks, being hit etc etc etc, having to wait an additional attack round is the difference between auric and kila. i actually rage when i wind up with 99tp lolololol
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-23 16:28:14
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
hence the " " >.> capping subtle blow and agi subtle blow can be balanced easier. heed ring is a nice item for tanking, and additionally you (if you make it to shinryu) would be better off using twilight dagger's tp stealing trait.
I know about heed ring. Hence my 12% statement. And it's not really about balance between the 2. They are seperate with there own seperate caps. In fact if you are going to bring up stealing tp the agi effect actually makes getting close to the subtle blow cap even more effective. twilight + auric with only suppa for DW and capped agi effects and subtle blow would put you at only giving the mob 3.7 tp per attack round (discounting double/triple attack missed etc)
charis casaque +2
charis necklace
slither gloves
etc etc etc
with 200 agi and capped subtle blow you should only be feeding the mob .3 tp a hit not 3.7.

edit: yes twilight overwrites samba, but if you are using haste samba only 1 of your daggers needs to recieve the haste samba affect to recieve the effect of it.
Are you still capping haste like that? I don't think you are. Well not without atmas but then if you were using a haste atma you could put in more DW too...

And I said per round not attack... and how the heck are you getting .3? You are getting base 4.4 per hit in that setup which means the mob is getting base 7.4... 3.7 with capped subtle blow. Which would mean agis effect would have to cap at 92% to get .3 which last I heard it was 50% like subtle blow.
 Fenrir.Rinnsi
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By Fenrir.Rinnsi 2011-02-23 16:29:28
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Fenrir.Rinnsi said:
speaking of closed position, would it be worth to merit that, if i plan to be a DNC Tank?
-Closed+fan?
>.>
 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 16:30:54
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Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
hence the " " >.> capping subtle blow and agi subtle blow can be balanced easier. heed ring is a nice item for tanking, and additionally you (if you make it to shinryu) would be better off using twilight dagger's tp stealing trait.
I know about heed ring. Hence my 12% statement. And it's not really about balance between the 2. They are seperate with there own seperate caps. In fact if you are going to bring up stealing tp the agi effect actually makes getting close to the subtle blow cap even more effective. twilight + auric with only suppa for DW and capped agi effects and subtle blow would put you at only giving the mob 3.7 tp per attack round (discounting double/triple attack missed etc)
charis casaque +2
charis necklace
slither gloves
etc etc etc
with 200 agi and capped subtle blow you should only be feeding the mob .3 tp a hit not 3.7.

edit: yes twilight overwrites samba, but if you are using haste samba only 1 of your daggers needs to recieve the haste samba affect to recieve the effect of it.
Are you still capping haste like that? I don't think you are.

And I said per round not attack... and how the heck are you getting .3? You are getting base 4.4 per hit which means the mob is getting base 7.4... 3.7 with capped subtle blow. Which would mean agis effect would have to cap at 92% to get .3 which last I heard it was 50% like dual wield.
i mention hands and you *** at me for haste cap, which is easily made up with ocelots (hi it has 8 agi)

iirc agi subtle blow is capped at 95% and i have not heard anything about dw having a cap, i could be wrong, read about it and forgot about it, but the most dw a dnc can get is 58% and there IS a difference between 50 and 58.
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 16:32:24
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Fenrir.Rinnsi said:
Fenrir.Rinnsi said:
speaking of closed position, would it be worth to merit that, if i plan to be a DNC Tank?
-Closed+fan?
>.>
i personally didnt put in any closed position merits because i felt that capping no foot rise was more important to me, it's different from person to person, but yes there are many many dancers who have closed position merits
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-23 16:34:28
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
i mention hands and you *** at me for haste cap, which is easily made up with ocelots (hi it has 8 agi) iirc agi subtle blow is capped at 95%

and i have not heard anything about dw having a cap, i could be wrong, read about it and forgot about it, but the most dw a dnc can get is 58% and there IS a difference between 50 and 58.
Of course I do. You can't complain about a weapons dps if your subsitution for it loses you haste...

And the sure you put on the haste and lose the subtle blow.


95% is rather um rediculous does anyone have links to any testing on that?

And yeah meant subtle blow lol. Context
 Asura.Eeek
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By Asura.Eeek 2011-02-23 16:36:42
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Asura.Eeek said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
Asura.Eeek said:
Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
auric had it's use when it came out, but the only real thing it offers is a 5% increase in DW, which is nice for the casual Epeen "i hit delay cap without brd) but it kinda screws a 20 hit build, and the dps on it is easily replaced by even an Eva kila.
There is that subtle blow thing... also it's eva kila's dps only appears to be better because you aren't account for DW. Offhanding auric actually increases your dps by a very small amount

I don't know about anyone else, but when I equip one or two AGI Kilas, I have something in mind other than pure damage. Why would you even do a damage comparison between AGI Kila +2 and Auric Dagger?
perfectionist i guess, minor increase in dmg means a minor increase in hate holding and a minor increase of finishing the fight faster.

But AGI Kila +2 isn't a damage dagger, at least I don't use it as such. I use one/two AGI Kilas to increase survivability, decrease the amount of time I spend recasting shadows, and decrease the amount of TP I use curing myself (I can't break the habit of curing myself after a big hit/nuke even with support around).

I go with other daggers for damage.
i was comparing it to auric, i have my personal tp set put me right at the point that any increase in dw will take me from a 20 hit to a 21 hit, while most of the time there are many other factors such as parrying, double/triple/qruadruple attacks, being hit etc etc etc, having to wait an additional attack round is the difference between auric and kila. i actually rage when i wind up with 99tp lolololol

Aaaah, fair enough. I came to DNC from a THF background, so I was used to the near futility of an x-hit setup on that job. I do sigh when I hit 99TP, but I accept it on jobs like THF or DNC. I would nail down x-hit builds on 2hander DDs if I had them.

Oh ***...

BLM can use 2-handed weapons!

Brb making x-hit builds for my BLM.
 Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-23 16:37:40
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Asura.Eeek said:
Oh ***... BLM can use 2-handed weapons! Brb making x-hit builds for my BLM.
Fear the Vidohunir
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2011-02-23 16:38:18
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It's 75% reduction total. 50% from AGI, 50% from Subtle Blow.
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 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 16:39:01
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Bahamut.Dasva said:
Asura.Yunalaysca said:
i mention hands and you *** at me for haste cap, which is easily made up with ocelots (hi it has 8 agi) iirc agi subtle blow is capped at 95%

and i have not heard anything about dw having a cap, i could be wrong, read about it and forgot about it, but the most dw a dnc can get is 58% and there IS a difference between 50 and 58.
Of course I do. You can't complain about a weapons dps if your subsitution for it loses you haste...

And the sure you put on the haste and lose the subtle blow.

95% is rather um rediculous does anyone have links to any testing on that?

And yeah meant subtle blow lol
i was merely giving a couple examples of subtle blow gear, there is plenty more dnc can use.

as for agi cap it's on bg, i believe it was byrth that did the testing. a dnc can solo tank a nm without it having to tp move on them with 200 agi and twilight knife (unless of course it has regain or does tp moves at certain %'s)
 Asura.Yunalaysca
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By Asura.Yunalaysca 2011-02-23 16:42:11
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Lakshmi.Byrth said:
It's 75% reduction total. 50% from AGI, 50% from Subtle Blow.
o hi

and apparently idrc
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By Lakshmi.Sake 2011-02-23 16:45:37
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Asura.Eeek said:
But AGI Kila +2 isn't a damage dagger, at least I don't use it as such. I use one/two AGI Kilas to increase survivability, decrease the amount of time I spend recasting shadows, and decrease the amount of TP I use curing myself (I can't break the habit of curing myself after a big hit/nuke even with support around). I go with other daggers for damage. EDIT: And by the way (directed more at Dasva), my default TP set has 44% Subtle Blow: 20% from JT, 7% from Charis Casaque +1, 7% from Heed Ring, 5% from Charis Necklace, and 5% from Rajas Ring.

Bit off topic but.. What daggers do you typically use for a DD setup? I'm usually using AGI Kila +2 and Twilight offhand as thats about the best I have until I get a STR Kila +2. I also have Angr and Phurba but.. they don't see much use. Anything solo and I'm pretty much using 2x AGI Kila +2.
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-02-23 16:45:59
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Asura.Yunalaysca said:
i was merely giving a couple examples of subtle blow gear, there is plenty more dnc can use.
I know there are and that dnc cap easily. However you aren't capping without losing your haste cap or losing your DW from your neck without either auric or Vellaunus' mantle which alot of servers don't have and would lose out on double attack anyways.

I'm merely saying that auric has it's uses. Yeah it's dmg is slightly less than some DD daggers out there true. But the DW helps balance that a bit. And the subtle blow adds a bit of defensibility...

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