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Is there a point in PLD anymore?
 Ramuh.Dasva
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 40469
By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-08-22 19:25:39
Phoenix.Avelle said: I would like to see this, don't believe I've ever seen a BLU tank anything at all, ever. Mostly cause no one lets them. So they stick to the DDing. Granted I've ended up tanking in most my abyssea pts just from DD. But you should check out the emnity value of blu spells. Even the buffs can be huge amounts of hate. Which can be AOEd once every 10-20 min.
Also Sanguine blade properly built (on a blu or rdm) can do comparable dmg to atonement on alot of harder targets but ya know gets you hp back
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By Leviathan.Catnipthief 2010-08-22 19:26:16
Cerberus.Excelior said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Shiva.Khimaira said: PLD is safer for one JAs with extended cooldowns do not make a job safer unless you need them less frequently than the duration of recast. That's not what I feel makes PLD a safer tank. For one, it doesn't rely as much on the support of others, granted it's more difficult to tank without it, but it's near impossible with unconventional tanking methods. It's easy to keep shadows up through blocking, with either Reprisal, and/or a Shield Skill set. PLD can also heal itself if the mages are having trouble, or to spike their hate, and though un-desirable, in the event the tank dies, a PLD is able to regain hate much quicker than other jobs. Blu can do all those things better than pld IMO Perhaps not the shadows... But like Ive been saying, basically since I entered this thread, Im not arguing what's more efficient.
Jobs that can tank:
PLD/nin
Whm/nin
RDM/nin
Blu/NIN
drk/nin
sam/nin
war/nin
thf/nin
nin/drk
blm/nin
sch/nin (probably)
brd/nin (used to with mazurka)
dnc/nin
K every job but bst and pup can tank.
/thread
Sure any job can tank /nin, but then aren't you gimping DD output by doing so? Or gimping healing capability.
Not really saying PLD is better cause ... well they kinda aren't, but if your gonna say any job can tank, shouldn't they be able to tank without /nin sub?
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
By Shiva.Khimaira 2010-08-22 19:26:26
Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Shiva.Khimaira said: PLD is safer for one JAs with extended cooldowns do not make a job safer unless you need them less frequently than the duration of recast. That's not what I feel makes PLD a safer tank. For one, it doesn't rely as much on the support of others, granted it's more difficult to tank without it, but it's near impossible with unconventional tanking methods. It's easy to keep shadows up through blocking, with either Reprisal, and/or a Shield Skill set. PLD can also heal itself if the mages are having trouble, or to spike their hate, and though un-desirable, in the event the tank dies, a PLD is able to regain hate much quicker than other jobs. Blu can do all those things better than pld IMO
Blu can't DD at all while tanking. For that reason its worse than pld.
Pld DD wasn't mentioned in that.
He's talking about Atonement, which no matter what your set up, is consistent damage.
I know what he's talking about. The point is it wasn't what *you* were talking about.
That's not the point, I was only getting pissed off because I was being trolled about something I hadn't even touched on..
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-08-22 19:27:00
Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Shiva.Khimaira said: PLD is safer for one JAs with extended cooldowns do not make a job safer unless you need them less frequently than the duration of recast. That's not what I feel makes PLD a safer tank. For one, it doesn't rely as much on the support of others, granted it's more difficult to tank without it, but it's near impossible with unconventional tanking methods. It's easy to keep shadows up through blocking, with either Reprisal, and/or a Shield Skill set. PLD can also heal itself if the mages are having trouble, or to spike their hate, and though un-desirable, in the event the tank dies, a PLD is able to regain hate much quicker than other jobs. Blu can do all those things better than pld IMO
Blu can't DD at all while tanking. For that reason its worse than pld.
Pld DD wasn't mentioned in that.
He's talking about Atonement, which no matter what your set up, is consistent damage.
I know what he's talking about. The point is it wasn't what *you* were talking about.
That's not the point, I was only getting pissed off because I was being trolled about something I hadn't even touched on..
No-one trolling you :/ I wish people would stop throwing that word out whenever they feel intellectually threatened.
[+]
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-22 19:27:58
Cerberus.Excelior said: Blu can't DD at all while tanking. For that reason its worse than pld. It is however safer than PLD for the most part, which is the crux of his argument. If Atonement was not a factor for whatever reason BLU would have a decent edge over PLD. ie, the situations where people used RDM tanks.
That said, BLU can use the Magian PDT sword... so in theory we could at least toss out a physical spell or two every now and then. I don't find it worthwhile for most situations, but it's an option. There's also Sanguine Blade, which we have better gear for.
Phoenix.Avelle said: I would like to see this, don't believe I've ever seen a BLU tank anything at all, ever.
It's basically RDM-1 (pre-patch) for tanking. Weaker Fast Cast, weaker Stoneskin, no Composure, no Phalanx, but similar hate gain and self-sufficiency along with goodies like Cocoon.
 Cerberus.Excelior
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Posts: 364
By Cerberus.Excelior 2010-08-22 19:28:00
Leviathan.Catnipthief said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Shiva.Khimaira said: PLD is safer for one JAs with extended cooldowns do not make a job safer unless you need them less frequently than the duration of recast. That's not what I feel makes PLD a safer tank. For one, it doesn't rely as much on the support of others, granted it's more difficult to tank without it, but it's near impossible with unconventional tanking methods. It's easy to keep shadows up through blocking, with either Reprisal, and/or a Shield Skill set. PLD can also heal itself if the mages are having trouble, or to spike their hate, and though un-desirable, in the event the tank dies, a PLD is able to regain hate much quicker than other jobs. Blu can do all those things better than pld IMO Perhaps not the shadows... But like Ive been saying, basically since I entered this thread, Im not arguing what's more efficient. Jobs that can tank: PLD/nin Whm/nin RDM/nin Blu/NIN drk/nin sam/nin war/nin thf/nin nin/drk blm/nin sch/nin (probably) brd/nin (used to with mazurka) dnc/nin K every job but bst and pup can tank. /thread Sure any job can tank /nin, but then aren't you gimping DD output by doing so? Or gimping healing capability. Not really saying PLD is better cause ... well they kinda aren't, but if your gonna say any job can tank, shouldn't they be able to tank without /nin sub?
PLD can't even tank without nin sub. Well, at least not without smn rotations or an army of healers for pld/rdm.
This game is completely shadow dependent.
Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2010-08-22 19:28:03
Shiva.Flionheart said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Shiva.Khimaira said: PLD is safer for one JAs with extended cooldowns do not make a job safer unless you need them less frequently than the duration of recast. That's not what I feel makes PLD a safer tank. For one, it doesn't rely as much on the support of others, granted it's more difficult to tank without it, but it's near impossible with unconventional tanking methods. It's easy to keep shadows up through blocking, with either Reprisal, and/or a Shield Skill set. PLD can also heal itself if the mages are having trouble, or to spike their hate, and though un-desirable, in the event the tank dies, a PLD is able to regain hate much quicker than other jobs. Blu can do all those things better than pld IMO
Blu can't DD at all while tanking. For that reason its worse than pld.
Pld DD wasn't mentioned in that.
He's talking about Atonement, which no matter what your set up, is consistent damage.
I know what he's talking about. The point is it wasn't what *you* were talking about.
That's not the point, I was only getting pissed off because I was being trolled about something I hadn't even touched on..
No-one trolling you :/ I wish people would stop throwing that word out whenever they feel intellectually threatened.
I'm not even implying anything o.o I just said blu can do better at what you said. Nothing about DD was mentioned
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Game: FFXI
By Shiva.Khimaira 2010-08-22 19:28:24
Shiva.Flionheart said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Shiva.Khimaira said: PLD is safer for one JAs with extended cooldowns do not make a job safer unless you need them less frequently than the duration of recast. That's not what I feel makes PLD a safer tank. For one, it doesn't rely as much on the support of others, granted it's more difficult to tank without it, but it's near impossible with unconventional tanking methods. It's easy to keep shadows up through blocking, with either Reprisal, and/or a Shield Skill set. PLD can also heal itself if the mages are having trouble, or to spike their hate, and though un-desirable, in the event the tank dies, a PLD is able to regain hate much quicker than other jobs. Blu can do all those things better than pld IMO
Blu can't DD at all while tanking. For that reason its worse than pld.
Pld DD wasn't mentioned in that.
He's talking about Atonement, which no matter what your set up, is consistent damage.
I know what he's talking about. The point is it wasn't what *you* were talking about.
That's not the point, I was only getting pissed off because I was being trolled about something I hadn't even touched on..
No-one trolling you :/ I wish people would stop throwing that word out whenever they feel intellectually threatened.
Un-true, and you kind of just did.
[+]
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-08-22 19:29:17
Shiva.Khimaira said: Shiva.Flionheart said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Bahamut.Serj said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Bahamut.Serj said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Shiva.Khimaira said: PLD is safer for one JAs with extended cooldowns do not make a job safer unless you need them less frequently than the duration of recast. That's not what I feel makes PLD a safer tank. For one, it doesn't rely as much on the support of others, granted it's more difficult to tank without it, but it's near impossible with unconventional tanking methods. It's easy to keep shadows up through blocking, with either Reprisal, and/or a Shield Skill set. PLD can also heal itself if the mages are having trouble, or to spike their hate, and though un-desirable, in the event the tank dies, a PLD is able to regain hate much quicker than other jobs. Blu can do all those things better than pld IMO
Blu can't DD at all while tanking. For that reason its worse than pld.
Pld DD wasn't mentioned in that.
He's talking about Atonement, which no matter what your set up, is consistent damage.
I know what he's talking about. The point is it wasn't what *you* were talking about.
That's not the point, I was only getting pissed off because I was being trolled about something I hadn't even touched on..
No-one trolling you :/ I wish people would stop throwing that word out whenever they feel intellectually threatened.
Un-true, and you kind of just did.
Learn the definition of troll before I facepalm myself to death.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-22 19:30:23
Trim your quotes people, annoying to scroll past 8 posts worth of quotes for a one-liner.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
By Shiva.Khimaira 2010-08-22 19:31:40
Shiva.Flionheart said:
Learn the definition of troll before I facepalm myself to death.
Quote: troll1 [trohl] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1.
to sing or utter in a full, rolling voice.
2.
to sing in the manner of a round or catch.
3.
to fish for or in with a moving line, working the line up or down with a rod, as in fishing for pike, or trailing the line behind a slow-moving boat.
4.
to move (the line or bait) in doing this.
5.
to cause to turn round and round; roll.
6.
Obsolete . to hand around, as a bowl of liquor at table.
–verb (used without object)
7.
to sing with a full, rolling voice; give forth full, rolling tones.
8.
to be uttered or sounded in such tones.
9.
to fish by trolling.
10.
to roll; turn round and round.
11.
to move nimbly, as the tongue in speaking.
–noun
12.
a song whose parts are sung in succession; a round.
13.
the act of trolling.
14.
a lure used in trolling for fish.
15.
the fishing line containing the lure and hook for use in trolling.
Which one ^^
Edit: I honestly don't care anymore, gonna clock out of this conversation now. Would just like to once again reiterate, I never so much as implied PLD was the most efficient tank. Simply stated the truth, it's currently, not obsolete, MEANING people still find use for it.
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Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-22 19:32:28
Quote: 1.
to sing or utter in a full, rolling voice. Is this for real? *** lol
Cerberus.Excelior
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 364
By Cerberus.Excelior 2010-08-22 19:33:03
Lol I wasn't trolling regarding that comment. You're aruging that blu does everything much more effectively than pld. (You didnt mention DD) You're just ignoring the fact the exact problem this entire thread was discussing is that pld is obsolete compared to DD tank. The statement that blu does less damage than pld logically means that blu is even further removed from effective tanking than pld.
[+]
Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2010-08-22 19:33:07
vocals = trolling.
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Posts: 23653
By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-08-22 19:33:33
Shiva.Khimaira said: Shiva.Flionheart said:
Learn the definition of troll before I facepalm myself to death.
Quote: troll1 [trohl] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1.
to sing or utter in a full, rolling voice.
2.
to sing in the manner of a round or catch.
3.
to fish for or in with a moving line, working the line up or down with a rod, as in fishing for pike, or trailing the line behind a slow-moving boat.
4.
to move (the line or bait) in doing this.
5.
to cause to turn round and round; roll.
6.
Obsolete . to hand around, as a bowl of liquor at table.
–verb (used without object)
7.
to sing with a full, rolling voice; give forth full, rolling tones.
8.
to be uttered or sounded in such tones.
9.
to fish by trolling.
10.
to roll; turn round and round.
11.
to move nimbly, as the tongue in speaking.
–noun
12.
a song whose parts are sung in succession; a round.
13.
the act of trolling.
14.
a lure used in trolling for fish.
15.
the fishing line containing the lure and hook for use in trolling.
Which one ^^ ED said: Merely being unpleasant is not trolling. Serial killers, dentists, IRS auditors, and so on are not trolls. Trolls do what they do to produce a reaction, not to be unpleasant for its own sake. Moreover, showing a disagreeing opinion with another party is not troll, no matter how much that other party tries to claim you're trolling. Being stupid or laughed at because of your own nature also is not trolling.
[+]
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By Shiva.Khimaira 2010-08-22 19:34:23
Cerberus.Excelior said: Lol I wasn't trolling regarding that comment. You're aruging that blu does everything much more effectively as pld. (You didnt mention DD) You're just ignoring the fact the exact problem this entire thread was discussing is that pld is obsolete compared to DD tank. The statement that blu does less damage than pld logically means that blu is even further removed from effective tanking than pld.
I didn't start the BLU stuff, I said, using it as an example, that it could tank one thing effectively.. JoL which PLD doesn't DD on either.
Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2010-08-22 19:34:39
Cerberus.Excelior said: Lol I wasn't trolling regarding that comment. You're aruging that blu does everything much more effectively as pld. (You didnt mention DD) You're just ignoring the fact the exact problem this entire thread was discussing is that pld is obsolete compared to DD tank. The statement that blu does less damage than pld logically means that blu is even further removed from effective tanking than pld.
I said I was only talking about what he said directly in the quote ._.
>_> You totally missed my comment about you not mentioning that mnk can tank <_<
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-08-22 19:34:39
Cerberus.Excelior said: PLD can't even tank without nin sub. Well, at least not without smn rotations or an army of healers for pld/rdm.
This game is completely shadow dependent.
RDM/BLU is a nice situational tank, mainly in a lowman context but yah. On the whole I agree! Utsusemi's damage reduction is really extreme.
 Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2010-08-22 19:35:08
Shiva.Flionheart said:
ED said: Merely being unpleasant is not trolling. Serial killers, dentists, IRS auditors, and so on are not trolls. Trolls do what they do to produce a reaction, not to be unpleasant for its own sake. Moreover, showing a disagreeing opinion with another party is not troll, no matter how much that other party tries to claim you're trolling. Being stupid or laughed at because of your own nature also is not trolling.
oh god that's beautiful
Cerberus.Excelior
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By Cerberus.Excelior 2010-08-22 19:37:07
Shiva.Khimaira said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Lol I wasn't trolling regarding that comment. You're aruging that blu does everything much more effectively as pld. (You didnt mention DD) You're just ignoring the fact the exact problem this entire thread was discussing is that pld is obsolete compared to DD tank. The statement that blu does less damage than pld logically means that blu is even further removed from effective tanking than pld. I didn't start the BLU stuff, I said, using it as an example, that it could tank one thing effectively.. JoL which PLD doesn't DD on either.
You stand at 13'-14' when you tank JOL. Your biggest VE hate spells are Temporal shift and Acetenic burst. They have a range of 5'ish. What rotation would you use for hate that only involves self range buffs and cures?
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-22 19:39:16
Cerberus.Excelior said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Lol I wasn't trolling regarding that comment. You're aruging that blu does everything much more effectively as pld. (You didnt mention DD) You're just ignoring the fact the exact problem this entire thread was discussing is that pld is obsolete compared to DD tank. The statement that blu does less damage than pld logically means that blu is even further removed from effective tanking than pld. I didn't start the BLU stuff, I said, using it as an example, that it could tank one thing effectively.. JoL which PLD doesn't DD on either.
You stand at 13'-14' when you tank JOL. Your biggest VE hate spells are Temporal shift and Acetenic burst. They have a range of 5'ish. What rotation would you use for hate that only involves self range buffs and cures? Exuviation, Blank Gaze (13.6' range), cure cheats.
Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-08-22 19:39:19
Bahamut.Raenryong said: Cerberus.Excelior said: PLD can't even tank without nin sub. Well, at least not without smn rotations or an army of healers for pld/rdm. This game is completely shadow dependent. RDM/BLU is a nice situational tank, mainly in a lowman context but yah. On the whole I agree! Utsusemi's damage reduction is really extreme. Or those times when rdm/blus dmg reduction can beat utsusemis ;). I'm told even half *** pdt gearing a rdm/blu can get thew bomblet nms hits down to 0 a decent portion of the time
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By Shiva.Khimaira 2010-08-22 19:40:31
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Lol I wasn't trolling regarding that comment. You're aruging that blu does everything much more effectively as pld. (You didnt mention DD) You're just ignoring the fact the exact problem this entire thread was discussing is that pld is obsolete compared to DD tank. The statement that blu does less damage than pld logically means that blu is even further removed from effective tanking than pld. I didn't start the BLU stuff, I said, using it as an example, that it could tank one thing effectively.. JoL which PLD doesn't DD on either.
You stand at 13'-14' when you tank JOL. Your biggest VE hate spells are Temporal shift and Acetenic burst. They have a range of 5'ish. What rotation would you use for hate that only involves self range buffs and cures? Exuviation, Blank Gaze (13.6' range), cure cheats.
Could also use Pollen due to low MP cost and fast recast, Chaotic Eye, and if /WAR provoke. If Im remembering correctly, Saline Coat also produces a fair amount of hate, though dont quote me on that.
Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-08-22 19:40:56
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Lol I wasn't trolling regarding that comment. You're aruging that blu does everything much more effectively as pld. (You didnt mention DD) You're just ignoring the fact the exact problem this entire thread was discussing is that pld is obsolete compared to DD tank. The statement that blu does less damage than pld logically means that blu is even further removed from effective tanking than pld. I didn't start the BLU stuff, I said, using it as an example, that it could tank one thing effectively.. JoL which PLD doesn't DD on either. You stand at 13'-14' when you tank JOL. Your biggest VE hate spells are Temporal shift and Acetenic burst. They have a range of 5'ish. What rotation would you use for hate that only involves self range buffs and cures? Exuviation, Blank Gaze (13.6' range), cure cheats. Aren't all the sleeps decent range too? Terror move as well.
Hell just battery charge and animating wail produce rather signifcant amounts of emnity. Start out fight with AOE exivuation is ALOT of emnity
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-22 19:41:12
Ramuh.Dasva said: Bahamut.Raenryong said: Cerberus.Excelior said: PLD can't even tank without nin sub. Well, at least not without smn rotations or an army of healers for pld/rdm. This game is completely shadow dependent. RDM/BLU is a nice situational tank, mainly in a lowman context but yah. On the whole I agree! Utsusemi's damage reduction is really extreme. Or those times when rdm/blus dmg reduction can beat utsusemis ;). I'm told even half *** pdt gearing a rdm/blu can get thew bomblet nms hits down to 0 a decent portion of the time like a boss
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By Shiva.Khimaira 2010-08-22 19:42:48
Ramuh.Dasva said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Shiva.Khimaira said: Cerberus.Excelior said: Lol I wasn't trolling regarding that comment. You're aruging that blu does everything much more effectively as pld. (You didnt mention DD) You're just ignoring the fact the exact problem this entire thread was discussing is that pld is obsolete compared to DD tank. The statement that blu does less damage than pld logically means that blu is even further removed from effective tanking than pld. I didn't start the BLU stuff, I said, using it as an example, that it could tank one thing effectively.. JoL which PLD doesn't DD on either. You stand at 13'-14' when you tank JOL. Your biggest VE hate spells are Temporal shift and Acetenic burst. They have a range of 5'ish. What rotation would you use for hate that only involves self range buffs and cures? Exuviation, Blank Gaze (13.6' range), cure cheats. Aren't all the sleeps decent range too? Terror move as well.
Sheep song and Soprofic have ***range, Yawn is decent, though I think still too low... Jettatura, I honestly cant remember but it has a long recast time, so probably worthless anyways. Blitztrahl has a long range also, though seeing as I only use it when soloing, I couldnt tell you how good the hate on it was.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-22 19:44:04
Ramuh.Dasva said: Aren't all the sleeps decent range too? Terror move as well. Didn't include Jettatura because I can't remember the range for the life of me. Don't think any of the sleeps fire at that range but I could be wrong, especially with Soporific since I use it least.
see "cure cheats"
1 CE 320 VE, not worth casting
lol. If it saves you some MP then sure I guess... but really?
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-08-22 19:45:42
Ramuh.Dasva said: Or those times when rdm/blus dmg reduction can beat utsusemis ;). I'm told even half *** pdt gearing a rdm/blu can get thew bomblet nms hits down to 0 a decent portion of the time
Capped PDT + Pro5 + Tacos + Cocoon takes him about 50+ hits to break my Stoneskin, and when it's off he does between 0-5 with the odd 10 and 25-30 criticals. Furthermore with Slow2 he's slow enough that you can cast Stoneskin between his melee rounds.
:D
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By Shiva.Khimaira 2010-08-22 19:46:12
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Ramuh.Dasva said: Aren't all the sleeps decent range too? Terror move as well. Didn't include Jettatura because I can't remember the range for the life of me. Don't think any of the sleeps fire at that range but I could be wrong, especially with Soporific since I use it least.
see "cure cheats"
1 CE 320 VE, not worth casting
Are you *** serious? When did keeping VE at/near capped become hard?
I wasnt sure if you were including pollen in that, considering the low amount healed. As for Chaotic Eye, I wasnt sure about, as for Provoke, was just saying, It's a nice tool for regaining hate quickly.. calm down. Also, nice ninja edit
Cerberus.Excelior
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By Cerberus.Excelior 2010-08-22 19:46:22
I remember Kaeko's blog discussing blu/pld for tanking using sentinel + difussion + exuviation. Not sure if that actually does cap hate like claims though lol.
Not trolling or anything... But really, wouldn't it be better to put a DD in where a PLD normally is in nearly every situation these days?
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