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 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 17:44:10
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Siren.Seiri said: »
Asura.Lolserj said: »
Siren.Seiri said: »
Asura.Lolserj said: »
Siren.Seiri said: »
Asura.Lolserj said: »
Basically if skillshots were as random or bad pro players and players in general would work to avoid them at all costs, and they clearly do not.

The thing is, skillshots exemplify the idea of high risk for high reward. Skillshots are usually more effective than point and click - not always, but usually - and are therefore given more practice by the pros who want to master them.

Whats more is that pros are very quick to notice player patterns like I said earlier, which reduces the uncertainty of the skillshots even more.

That's pretty much my point. They aren't "Random"

Pros still pick poke comps on occasion for *** sake and those are generally all skill shots.

The difference I'll point out between poke and pick comps though is this.

Pick comps rely on 1 or 2 key CCs landing to secure a rapid blitz kill. If those CC miss then the pick will often fail.

Poke comps rely on saturation rather than accuracy. You often see 2/3 shots miss even at the pro level (especially at the pro level) but if 20 or 30 shots are fired from a safe position, enough damage still comes through.

Well I never really brought up pick comps, and I do know the difference between the two. Just saying there was no real need to explain there.

My point was the difference in that 1 needs the skillshots to land 90%+, the other can manage with a 33% hit rate.

Yeah I agree with all that, just saying that even with the low hit rate and "unreliability" it's a thing.
 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 17:45:13
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Verda said: »
Siren.Seiri said: »
Verda said: »
Asura.Lolserj said: »
Verda said: »
Siren.Seiri said: »
Asura.Lolserj said: »
Basically if skillshots were as random or bad pro players and players in general would work to avoid them at all costs, and they clearly do not.

The thing is, skillshots exemplify the idea of high risk for high reward. Skillshots are usually more effective than point and click - not always, but usually - and are therefore given more practice by the pros who want to master them.

Whats more is that pros are very quick to notice player patterns like I said earlier, which reduces the uncertainty of the skillshots even more.
If you have an 80% chance to win a game by picking said champion you take them. In a best of 3 match it won't matter one game was lost due to unreliability. It's still a stupid design mechanic though.

Oh is 80% the number?
Yes. That's it now you got it. I have divined the one number and examples are for plebs.

What champion has a 80% win rate in your opinion?
No one, it's a counter example to Lolserj's terrible examples.

I don't really think I'm bringing up terrible examples here. You haven't once yet provided an example that supports your position yet you just ignore any valid points people bring up.

I'm just saying that your point of view is pretty *** stupid is all.
 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 17:49:21
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Verda said: »
I've only made examples and repeated myself 20 times. You just refuse to accept them because you can't stand being wrong and your under the false presumption that being a belligerent asshat makes you anything other than a belligerent asshat.

You've made examples? I really don't remember any good examples that actually support your opinion though.

I do remember you calling skillshots unreliable, but that doesn't support the opinion that it's bad game design, so until you actually bring up a point that supports that opinion I will calmly stand by and wait for one.

Actually support your argument for once, I've brought up plenty of examples and am just growing tired of the same "It's unreliable and I can't land skillshots so they're bad game design" argument. It doesn't actually support your *** opinion.
 Siren.Seiri
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By Siren.Seiri 2015-01-29 17:51:31
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Guys for the sake of my sanity I'm going to try and put a TLDR to both arguments.

Verda: Skill shots can't be considered reliable because of the unique player interaction in them hitting.

Lolserj: Skill shots can't be that unreliable or the skill shot dependent champions wouldn't be so in vogue.


Is that about right?
 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 17:56:44
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I've brought up the fact that they allow for counterplay not only because a player can suck and miss when they aim it, but a player can also predict movements to hit.

Players who are having skillshots thrown at them are able to wiggle around to dodge them and sometimes press the 's' key to stop moving and prevent skillshots from hitting them.

I've posted this video:

YouTube Video Placeholder


That shows that at a high level predictions can help aid against players just dodging skillshots.

I've given examples of how even today champions like Xerath, Rengar, Graves, and Ahri are all picked in the competitive scene while they all have skillshots in their kits and they're picked by the pros to utilize those skillshots.

I've brought up that Riot doesn't like the point and click mechanic because it doesn't allow for counterplay.

You as an *** came back saying "Skillshots have counterplay?!?! you mean if they miss????? LOLOLOL" so really I don't think I'm bringing up bad points, I believe you're just having a hard time understanding them or you really just have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to healthy game balance.

You brought up the fact that you can just stat buy to counter fed players, well sure you can. But the player to player interaction really isn't there when that's the only option. You should be able to skillfully dodge something and get rewarded for it. Flashing the skill shot that is going to take your life to kill an enemy, or predicting the flash to pick up the kill. Things like that just make the game.
 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 17:57:42
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Siren.Seiri said: »
Guys for the sake of my sanity I'm going to try and put a TLDR to both arguments.

Verda: Skill shots can't be considered reliable because of the unique player interaction in them hitting.

Lolserj: Skill shots can't be that unreliable or the skill shot dependent champions wouldn't be so in vogue.


Is that about right?

I've agreed and said that they're unreliable, I'm just saying that that doesn't make it a bad game design mechanic but instead makes for healthy counterplay possibilities and for healthy game balance.
 Siren.Seiri
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By Siren.Seiri 2015-01-29 18:04:34
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The madlife style play in Lolserj's video isn't just skillshot aim, or player prediction, its also a perfect knowledge of the exact distances and travel time of 1: rocket jump, 2: flay, 3: flash and 4: death sentence, all instinctively combined with the reaction speed to respond to a lanterns revealing of doublelift in a previously unseen bush.

While my opinion lies more toward Serj than Verda I'd have to differ slightly and say that skillshots are as reliable as the players aiming and dodging. Thus the better the player on both ends the more reliable the skill shots will hit - or miss in the case of the dodger. For me this is the most ideal contest of skill mechanics - something that Verda seems to dislike.

Tell me Verda, if you remove skillshots, what micro mechanics are left? There are tonnes but what can you pick up?
 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 18:05:05
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Verda said: »
Siren.Seiri said: »
Guys for the sake of my sanity I'm going to try and put a TLDR to both arguments.

Verda: Skill shots can't be considered reliable because of the unique player interaction in them hitting.

Lolserj: Skill shots can't be that unreliable or the skill shot dependent champions wouldn't be so in vogue.


Is that about right?
Skill shots aren't reliable. Unreliable mechanics in a game of skill and strategy is bad design. You don't want tournaments determined by flukes and randomness. You don't want that for even one game if you're serious about making a competitive game. Skillshots are bad for that reason. They're counter to skillful play. Over enough sample size, one can even consider them chance. Because there is always a chance you miss. Skill only closes the % gap of misses. It doesn't eliminate the fact they are unreliable. It doesn't mean they can't be balanced around, but if you do that you're going to end up with situations where flukes, instead of skill determine a match and that is undeniably bad game design. End of story.

Landing and dodging skillshots take skill.

End of story.
 Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2015-01-29 18:10:11
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Verda said: »
Cerberus.Tikal said: »
You said they suck at game design and cite DFG's removal as an example. DFG has been in the game longer than I've been playing, which is early S2, and if you think the gamers were the only ones aware of DFG's negative impact on the game, you're dead wrong. Riot has known for a long time, but they don't just theory-craft. They can't just say: "I think X is Y." and then implement it. It's not that easy, and anyone who trivializes the process doesn't comprehend it. There's hundreds of man-hours that go into minor fixes and adjustments, let alone complete overhauls. And itemization changes are among the most impactful changes, as they modify every single champ.

You're more forgiving than I am. They *** up way too much already imho. They don't even follow the advice of people that know better. I'm not much a fan of riot and it seems you are so we'll just have to disagree. I'm not over simplifying the task. I'm just saying they've handled it incompetently more times than I'm willing to forgive.
Them messing up is your shallow opinion that is only informed on the outer-workings of the game. Whose advice should they follow? Who is better suited to run the game than them? Seriously, that's about the worst argument on the planet. It's painfully arbitrary.

You can have your opinion. It's largely based on arrogant assumptions and fiction though.
 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 18:11:20
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Verda said: »
Asura.Lolserj said: »
Verda said: »
Siren.Seiri said: »
Guys for the sake of my sanity I'm going to try and put a TLDR to both arguments.

Verda: Skill shots can't be considered reliable because of the unique player interaction in them hitting.

Lolserj: Skill shots can't be that unreliable or the skill shot dependent champions wouldn't be so in vogue.


Is that about right?
Skill shots aren't reliable. Unreliable mechanics in a game of skill and strategy is bad design. You don't want tournaments determined by flukes and randomness. You don't want that for even one game if you're serious about making a competitive game. Skillshots are bad for that reason. They're counter to skillful play. Over enough sample size, one can even consider them chance. Because there is always a chance you miss. Skill only closes the % gap of misses. It doesn't eliminate the fact they are unreliable. It doesn't mean they can't be balanced around, but if you do that you're going to end up with situations where flukes, instead of skill determine a match and that is undeniably bad game design. End of story.

Landing and dodging skillshots take skill.

End of story.
Enjoy your tournament wins and losses that happen due to chance instead of skill.

Siren.Seiri said: »
The madlife style play in Lolserj's video isn't just skillshot aim, or player prediction, its also a perfect knowledge of the exact distances and travel time of 1: rocket jump, 2: flay, 3: flash and 4: death sentence, all instinctively combined with the reaction speed to respond to a lanterns revealing of doublelift in a previously unseen bush.

While my opinion lies more toward Serj than Verda I'd have to differ slightly and say that skillshots are as reliable as the players aiming and dodging. Thus the better the player on both ends the more reliable the skill shots will hit - or miss in the case of the dodger. For me this is the most ideal contest of skill mechanics - something that Verda seems to dislike.

Tell me Verda, if you remove skillshots, what micro mechanics are left? There are tonnes but what can you pick up?
I'm more a fan of animation canceling. But Riot seems to hate those removing it from Riven just recently. And adding people like Kalista that basically get the ability orb walk for free. As you said there's lots of mechanics one can pick and choose from or even invent. And they don't have to be toxic to the games intended purpose.

Dude landing and dodging skillshots aren't at all based on chance, there isn't some random chance that they'll veer off course because of wind or that they'll fall from the sky because of divine intervention. You aim them and then players have to react. It's player interaction. You're just falling back on that same argument, but it isn't chance. You're not saying how it's chance or even attempting to support your claim at all. Other than "they miss" which is actually a poor explanation of what happens.
 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 18:12:03
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Verda actually pick through my argument I've made in the past if you want to "win" this argument, but you can't so you haven't.
 Bismarck.Misao
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By Bismarck.Misao 2015-01-29 18:12:31
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By Areayea 2015-01-29 18:13:19
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Bismarck.Misao said: »

LMAO
 Siren.Seiri
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By Siren.Seiri 2015-01-29 18:16:28
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Verda. Animation cancelling is still in existence, what was removed from riven was more animation meshing where 2 animations would go off simultaneously rather than cancelling one midway THEN launching the second.

Kalista's passive is absolutely not orb walking, you sacrifice some of her free movement to use her passive and while its useful its also easily predictable by her avatars movements during an auto attack.

I simply don't understand why you see skillshots as toxic. There is truly 0 randomness to them as skillshots are 100% player controlled. There is no RNG like with critical hits or shaco's minion dodge, theres a simple you hit or you miss. That hit and miss is on the player themselves not the game, and their ability to identify opponent patterns then predict them. I would like a reasonable example of how this is toxic please.
 Ramuh.Urial
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By Ramuh.Urial 2015-01-29 18:16:35
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OMG I swear this guy isn't even good. Luckiest pro ever, right guys?

YouTube Video Placeholder
[+]
 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 18:17:04
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Verda said: »
Asura.Lolserj said: »
Verda actually pick through my argument I've made in the past if you want to "win" this argument, but you can't so you haven't.
I won the moment you started frothing at the mouth you have zero control and your arguments were based at me not the idea.

I've already said skill closes the gap % of misses. Or can you not read now too? I have never claimed that skill has no effect on landing. I just said it doesn't ever free it from being unreliable. But you don't care. Because you can't stand being wrong so wtv.

I made an argument and reiterated points above. Read through them or you're not actually arguing against my points. I'll take the win it's fine.
 Asura.Lolserj
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By Asura.Lolserj 2015-01-29 18:17:31
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Ramuh.Urial said: »
OMG I swear this guy isn't even good. Luckiest pro ever, right guys?

YouTube Video Placeholder

Truth
 Siren.Seiri
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By Siren.Seiri 2015-01-29 18:20:09
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On a slightly different note I like the new ahri changes. Seriously improves her teamfight at the cost of assassination. Now you can play both styles equally as the game dictates and creates a much more rounded champion.
 Siren.Seiri
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By Siren.Seiri 2015-01-29 18:27:35
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Verda said: »
Siren.Seiri said: »
Verda. Animation cancelling is still in existence, what was removed from riven was more animation meshing where 2 animations would go off simultaneously rather than cancelling one midway THEN launching the second.

Kalista's passive is absolutely not orb walking, you sacrifice some of her free movement to use her passive and while its useful its also easily predictable by her avatars movements during an auto attack.

I simply don't understand why you see skillshots as toxic. There is truly 0 randomness to them as skillshots are 100% player controlled. There is no RNG like with critical hits or shaco's minion dodge, theres a simple you hit or you miss. That hit and miss is on the player themselves not the game, and their ability to identify opponent patterns then predict them. I would like a reasonable example of how this is toxic please.
It's the illusion of control. You influence it. Which was never a point I made it doesn't influence things. I can blindfold you, spin you around, and ask you to throw a dart at a target as an extreme unrelated example. You're going to miss most the time. Statistics dictate there's a chance given a enough throws that you will miss or hit. It's not magic it's math. The same holds true for skill shots. While you can influence the outcome and have limited control the nature of their being doesn't change. They're a mechanic to create unreliability. Them being able to balance around it doesn't change their nature. If you want to have flukes ever have a built in designed in say in the outcome of competitive games go ahead on with your point of view. Because that is the single reason they are bad design.

Forgive me but the example used was too unrelated to count. You just said that the control of skillshots is an illusion but failed to explain why. As long as there is no RNG involved and the players are entirely behind the aiming then there is no chance, only individual skill. An unrelated counter example that bears relevance would be chess. You predict your opponents movements then you move to counter - you predict then you aim.
 Siren.Seiri
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By Siren.Seiri 2015-01-29 18:41:42
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Verda said: »
It's not a difficult concept. Your chance is not 100% chance to hit a skillshot no matter your skill level. Undeniable truth. The nature of them is unpredictable, and unreliable. Undeniable truth. In a game of strategy, and skill, having unreliablilty baked into the game design is a poor choice as it can lead to situations where wins are an unreliable indicator of skill. It doesn't matter if that is .1% or 20% its' a bad design. Not something a pro player wants millions riding on especially if it falls outside their favor.

The issue I have with this is the concept of 'chance' you apply to it. A players individual hit or miss rates can be given a % number, but the actual chance to hit cannot as that hit or miss is entirely dependent on the deliberate actions of 2+ players, thus leaving nothing to chance.

My example to you.

You are playing ziggs vs ahri, your opponent has a lee sin in the jungle. Ahri moves to receive blue and you want to steal it with mega inferno bomb. If lee sin starts the buff the moment ahri begins to move then you can estimate that with lee's level 5 clear speed the buff will take 7~ seconds to bring it within mega inferno's kill window. If lee starts it early and ahri just needs to q to take it then it'll miss, if lee is delayed and they kill it together then its potentially a miss. if lee knows what you're planning and pulls the buff out far enough then your bomb will miss. None of this is random.
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