League Of Legends

Yeah I agree with all that, just saying that even with the low hit rate and "unreliability" it's a thing.

I don't really think I'm bringing up terrible examples here. You haven't once yet provided an example that supports your position yet you just ignore any valid points people bring up.

I'm just saying that your point of view is pretty *** stupid is all.

You've made examples? I really don't remember any good examples that actually support your opinion though.

I do remember you calling skillshots unreliable, but that doesn't support the opinion that it's bad game design, so until you actually bring up a point that supports that opinion I will calmly stand by and wait for one.

Actually support your argument for once, I've brought up plenty of examples and am just growing tired of the same "It's unreliable and I can't land skillshots so they're bad game design" argument. It doesn't actually support your *** opinion.

Guys for the sake of my sanity I'm going to try and put a TLDR to both arguments.

Verda: Skill shots can't be considered reliable because of the unique player interaction in them hitting.

Lolserj: Skill shots can't be that unreliable or the skill shot dependent champions wouldn't be so in vogue.


Is that about right?

I've brought up the fact that they allow for counterplay not only because a player can suck and miss when they aim it, but a player can also predict movements to hit.

Players who are having skillshots thrown at them are able to wiggle around to dodge them and sometimes press the 's' key to stop moving and prevent skillshots from hitting them.

I've posted this video:



That shows that at a high level predictions can help aid against players just dodging skillshots.

I've given examples of how even today champions like Xerath, Rengar, Graves, and Ahri are all picked in the competitive scene while they all have skillshots in their kits and they're picked by the pros to utilize those skillshots.

I've brought up that Riot doesn't like the point and click mechanic because it doesn't allow for counterplay.

You as an *** came back saying "Skillshots have counterplay?!?! you mean if they miss????? LOLOLOL" so really I don't think I'm bringing up bad points, I believe you're just having a hard time understanding them or you really just have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to healthy game balance.

You brought up the fact that you can just stat buy to counter fed players, well sure you can. But the player to player interaction really isn't there when that's the only option. You should be able to skillfully dodge something and get rewarded for it. Flashing the skill shot that is going to take your life to kill an enemy, or predicting the flash to pick up the kill. Things like that just make the game.

I've agreed and said that they're unreliable, I'm just saying that that doesn't make it a bad game design mechanic but instead makes for healthy counterplay possibilities and for healthy game balance.

The madlife style play in Lolserj's video isn't just skillshot aim, or player prediction, its also a perfect knowledge of the exact distances and travel time of 1: rocket jump, 2: flay, 3: flash and 4: death sentence, all instinctively combined with the reaction speed to respond to a lanterns revealing of doublelift in a previously unseen bush.

While my opinion lies more toward Serj than Verda I'd have to differ slightly and say that skillshots are as reliable as the players aiming and dodging. Thus the better the player on both ends the more reliable the skill shots will hit - or miss in the case of the dodger. For me this is the most ideal contest of skill mechanics - something that Verda seems to dislike.

Tell me Verda, if you remove skillshots, what micro mechanics are left? There are tonnes but what can you pick up?

Landing and dodging skillshots take skill.

End of story.

Them messing up is your shallow opinion that is only informed on the outer-workings of the game. Whose advice should they follow? Who is better suited to run the game than them? Seriously, that's about the worst argument on the planet. It's painfully arbitrary.

You can have your opinion. It's largely based on arrogant assumptions and fiction though.

Dude landing and dodging skillshots aren't at all based on chance, there isn't some random chance that they'll veer off course because of wind or that they'll fall from the sky because of divine intervention. You aim them and then players have to react. It's player interaction. You're just falling back on that same argument, but it isn't chance. You're not saying how it's chance or even attempting to support your claim at all. Other than "they miss" which is actually a poor explanation of what happens.

Verda actually pick through my argument I've made in the past if you want to "win" this argument, but you can't so you haven't.

LMAO

Verda. Animation cancelling is still in existence, what was removed from riven was more animation meshing where 2 animations would go off simultaneously rather than cancelling one midway THEN launching the second.

Kalista's passive is absolutely not orb walking, you sacrifice some of her free movement to use her passive and while its useful its also easily predictable by her avatars movements during an auto attack.

I simply don't understand why you see skillshots as toxic. There is truly 0 randomness to them as skillshots are 100% player controlled. There is no RNG like with critical hits or shaco's minion dodge, theres a simple you hit or you miss. That hit and miss is on the player themselves not the game, and their ability to identify opponent patterns then predict them. I would like a reasonable example of how this is toxic please.

OMG I swear this guy isn't even good. Luckiest pro ever, right guys?

I made an argument and reiterated points above. Read through them or you're not actually arguing against my points. I'll take the win it's fine.

Truth

On a slightly different note I like the new ahri changes. Seriously improves her teamfight at the cost of assassination. Now you can play both styles equally as the game dictates and creates a much more rounded champion.

Forgive me but the example used was too unrelated to count. You just said that the control of skillshots is an illusion but failed to explain why. As long as there is no RNG involved and the players are entirely behind the aiming then there is no chance, only individual skill. An unrelated counter example that bears relevance would be chess. You predict your opponents movements then you move to counter - you predict then you aim.

The issue I have with this is the concept of 'chance' you apply to it. A players individual hit or miss rates can be given a % number, but the actual chance to hit cannot as that hit or miss is entirely dependent on the deliberate actions of 2+ players, thus leaving nothing to chance.

My example to you.

You are playing ziggs vs ahri, your opponent has a lee sin in the jungle. Ahri moves to receive blue and you want to steal it with mega inferno bomb. If lee sin starts the buff the moment ahri begins to move then you can estimate that with lee's level 5 clear speed the buff will take 7~ seconds to bring it within mega inferno's kill window. If lee starts it early and ahri just needs to q to take it then it'll miss, if lee is delayed and they kill it together then its potentially a miss. if lee knows what you're planning and pulls the buff out far enough then your bomb will miss. None of this is random.