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Religion: If you don't believe in it why does it bother you?
 Remora.Dubont
Serveur: Remora
Game: FFXI
Posts: 629
By Remora.Dubont 2010-03-20 00:33:11
Hades.Kvazz said: Remora.Dubont said: Hades.Kvazz said: There is no right or wrong when it comes to belief, it's just a belief.
Some people are stronger than others, some people dont need this whole "there is someone watching over me" thing, but some people do.
Do whatever makes you function, but dont push it on someone else
The biggest question for me still is, why is it like this?
Religion was initially put into place as a form of rule. The church was court and court was church. The Bible was used as the code of law. Over time, these two have seemingly spread apart but they are still combined and still used. It is like this b/c of our ancestors and how they ruled their people. Yet some people still put the beliefs aside, but some people keep them.
I'm from a christian country, but before Norway became a christian country, we belived in norse mythology.
BECOME CHRISTIANS OR DIE.
Kinda just shows how weak people are, they got a new religion, and after awhile they just put the old one aside because they had a new one.
It is the same way with the US. We were under whatever the hell england was....founded the US and started a new religion...then catholics...then Christian...now there are different branches of Christianity...Baptist, southern Baptist, Church of Christ. It is a bit ridiculous, but there isn't really anything we can do. People will be as they are raised.
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 Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
Game: FFXI
Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-20 00:35:33
Remora.Dubont said: Hades.Kvazz said: Remora.Dubont said: Hades.Kvazz said: There is no right or wrong when it comes to belief, it's just a belief.
Some people are stronger than others, some people dont need this whole "there is someone watching over me" thing, but some people do.
Do whatever makes you function, but dont push it on someone else
The biggest question for me still is, why is it like this?
Religion was initially put into place as a form of rule. The church was court and court was church. The Bible was used as the code of law. Over time, these two have seemingly spread apart but they are still combined and still used. It is like this b/c of our ancestors and how they ruled their people. Yet some people still put the beliefs aside, but some people keep them.
I'm from a christian country, but before Norway became a christian country, we belived in norse mythology.
BECOME CHRISTIANS OR DIE.
Kinda just shows how weak people are, they got a new religion, and after awhile they just put the old one aside because they had a new one.
It is the same way with the US. We were under whatever the hell england was....founded the US and started a new religion...then catholics...then Christian...now there are different branches of Christianity...Baptist, southern Baptist, Church of Christ. It is a bit ridiculous, but there isn't really anything we can do. People will be as they are raised.
I'm not a christian, yet I had a religios childhood, we have bibles, we have a "RELIGION" subject in school, heavily based on christianity, yet some(most people I know) put all this aside.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 68
By Asura.Karianna 2010-03-20 00:36:59
Caitsith.Silvaria said: Hmm...this is where religion often contradicts itself. It's impossible to be "against homosexuality" without judging the homosexual...and yet, judging others is not your job, it is the Christian god's job, and Jesus makes that quite clear.
The Old Testament does preach against homosexuality, but...Jesus preached love and acceptance, not judgment, and it is my understanding that the horrific laws dictated in the OT, such as stoning a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night, were in a sense nullified because accepting Jesus into one's heart negates the need for those laws. Which is good, since some of those laws were pretty unpleasant. 8(
In any case, Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, but was very clear about non-judgment. Therefore, it seems to me that the best way to make sure you're following Jesus' teachings about acceptance and love would be to not be "against" homosexuality, but accept it as part of God's Divine Plan. 8) I think you brought up a very, very good point, but I disagree. You can be against homosexuality without judging the homosexual. It's not easy, but it's very possible. It's just another case of loving someone even if they disagree with you. I hate alcohol with a passion, having watched three family members die from it. Am I incapable of being friends with people who drink alcoholic beverages? Certainly not. In the same way, if I were against homosexuality, I could be friends with a homosexual without conflict.
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 Ragnarok.Psyence
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 471
By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-03-20 00:45:13
Caitsith.Silvaria said: It's impossible to be "against homosexuality" without judging the homosexual...and yet, judging others is not your job, it is the Christian god's job, and Jesus makes that quite clear.
The Old Testament does preach against homosexuality, but...Jesus preached love and acceptance, not judgment
Sorry to break it to you but... 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
That's in the new testament and it basically says homosexuals will not enter God's kingdom. Sure, it's not Jesus, it's St-Paul... but even the 4 people who wrote the gospels didn't meet Jesus.
Religion is not as tolerant as you'd love to think. If you chose to be tolerant, you should disassociate yourself from it, it will give you more credibility.
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 Caitsith.Blurr
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 786
By Caitsith.Blurr 2010-03-20 00:49:02
Ragnarok.Psyence said: Caitsith.Silvaria said: It's impossible to be "against homosexuality" without judging the homosexual...and yet, judging others is not your job, it is the Christian god's job, and Jesus makes that quite clear.
The Old Testament does preach against homosexuality, but...Jesus preached love and acceptance, not judgment
Sorry to break it to you but... 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
That's in the new testament and it basically says homosexuals will not enter God's kingdom. Sure, it's not Jesus, it's St-Paul... but even the 4 people who wrote the gospels didn't meet Jesus.
Religion is not as tolerant as you'd love to think. If you chose to be tolerant, you should disassociate yourself from it, it will give you more credibility.
lets also not forget the bibles been revised/edited about a million times by PEOPLE.
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Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
Game: FFXI
Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-20 00:55:12
YOU SHALL NOT KILL.
Yet christianity invaded sevral counties in the past, killing thousands, just to convert them into christians.
All religious books (all religions) are books with _OLD_ stories, that some took 100-200 years before they got written down.
Do you belive all stories your grandparents tell you are 100% true? Imagine how much that got twisted and erased and made up before it finally got written down.
This is just random thoughts*
Allso, religion in it's own isnt that makes people think it's stupid, it's all the extremists that ruin everything. Christians, Muslims and all the others alike, there's allways some idiot that think he can change the world by killing people for his religion.
These are the people that make other people hate religion.
Caitsith.Silvaria
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 269
By Caitsith.Silvaria 2010-03-20 00:58:28
Asura.Karianna said: I think you brought up a very, very good point, but I disagree. You can be against homosexuality without judging the homosexual. It's not easy, but it's very possible. It's just another case of loving someone even if they disagree with you. I hate alcohol with a passion, having watched three family members die from it. Am I incapable of being friends with people who drink alcoholic beverages? Certainly not. In the same way, if I were against homosexuality, I could be friends with a homosexual without conflict.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because even in disliking alcoholics, you're judging their choices to be wrong...in your view. If you're against obesity, as a thread recently delved into, then you're judging those who make the choice to overeat to be wrong. You say it's not easy, but it's very possible...I say it's not possible at all, because to truly be non-judgmental, you have to literally accept all their choices and all their behaviors -without- labeling them as "wrong". By labeling, you are judging. IMO. 8)
Caitsith.Blurr
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 786
By Caitsith.Blurr 2010-03-20 01:02:38
just use common sense.. what kinda crazy *** would create life, let it be chosen by those how to live life, and then try to say, "noo no no. thats wrong."
that makes NO sense..
if you have the power to create life, and you want those lives to be lived a certain way.. youd just make them do it that way from the get go <.>
and for the sake of argument.. if it were just a mistake... and god did always intend for us to have free will, just being like "oops" after he saw how *** up of an idea it was. he could of wiped the slate clean >.>
if there IS a god.. idk, hes kinda acting like a child that wants something, but just doesnt know what..
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Caitsith.Silvaria
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 269
By Caitsith.Silvaria 2010-03-20 01:03:44
Ragnarok.Psyence said: Caitsith.Silvaria said: It's impossible to be "against homosexuality" without judging the homosexual...and yet, judging others is not your job, it is the Christian god's job, and Jesus makes that quite clear.
The Old Testament does preach against homosexuality, but...Jesus preached love and acceptance, not judgment
Sorry to break it to you but... 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
That's in the new testament and it basically says homosexuals will not enter God's kingdom. Sure, it's not Jesus, it's St-Paul... but even the 4 people who wrote the gospels didn't meet Jesus.
Religion is not as tolerant as you'd love to think. If you chose to be tolerant, you should disassociate yourself from it, it will give you more credibility.
Heh...first, there are a number of Christian scholars who aren't entirely convinced that Paul's teachings were in-line with Jesus'...but that's another thread. Jesus himself never said a word against homosexuality...and since Christians put a great deal of weight on his words, his silence is disconcerting, at best.
Second of all...you are preaching to the choir, pun intended. I am not religious, and I do not think organized, Western religions are tolerant at all. They are extremely judgmental, which is what I was trying to explain to the other poster...Christianity, IMO, creates a paradox by forcing it's adherents to judge certain behaviors to be wrong, i.e., sin...and yet, by judging, they are going against the advice of their messiah, who said that only God has the right to judge. As humans with emotions and opinions, it is impossible for us to not judge the actions of others, which makes the preaching of non-judgment impossible to follow. 8(
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Serveur: Asura
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Posts: 68
By Asura.Karianna 2010-03-20 01:05:42
Caitsith.Blurr said: just use common sense.. what kinda crazy *** would create life, let it be chosen by those how to live life, and then try to say, "noo no no. thats wrong."
that makes NO sense..
if you have the power to create life, and you want those lives to be lived a certain way.. youd just make them do it that way from the get go <.>
and for the sake of argument.. if it were just a mistake... and god did always intend for us to have free will, just being like "oops" after he saw how *** up of an idea it was. he could of wiped the slate clean >.>
if there IS a god.. idk, he kinda acting like a child that wants something, but just doesnt know what.. You'd make them do it unless you didn't want them to be robots. :p Do you have a pet? If you do, would you rather your pet willingly love and obey you or would you rather force it to?
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Caitsith.Blurr
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 786
By Caitsith.Blurr 2010-03-20 01:08:57
Asura.Karianna said: Caitsith.Blurr said: lets also not forget the bibles been revised/edited about a million times by PEOPLE. Let's also keep in mind that there are literal translations of the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic writings of the Bible available.
also all done by PEOPLE. from the original actual texts (if even exist(unless someone can prove something to me in front of my own eyes, its just hearsay)) all the way to what we can buy in a bookstore today.. its all been done by people. there isnt one piece of tangible evidence out there that supports the existence of a god, much less the word of.. just a lot of hearsay at this point <.>
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Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
Game: FFXI
Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-20 01:09:25
Maybe "god" is a humanoid race from another universe that made us in their image, as their slaves! >_> <_< for all we know it could be the case? lol
Serveur: Siren
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Posts: 2680
By Siren.Clinpachi 2010-03-20 01:10:55
Hades.Kvazz said: Maybe "god" is a humanoid race from another universe that made us in their image, as their slaves! >_> <_< for all we know it could be the case? lol
Star ocean 3 suddenly just came to mind LOL.
Caitsith.Blurr
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 786
By Caitsith.Blurr 2010-03-20 01:11:24
Asura.Karianna said: Caitsith.Blurr said: just use common sense.. what kinda crazy *** would create life, let it be chosen by those how to live life, and then try to say, "noo no no. thats wrong."
that makes NO sense..
if you have the power to create life, and you want those lives to be lived a certain way.. youd just make them do it that way from the get go <.>
and for the sake of argument.. if it were just a mistake... and god did always intend for us to have free will, just being like "oops" after he saw how *** up of an idea it was. he could of wiped the slate clean >.>
if there IS a god.. idk, he kinda acting like a child that wants something, but just doesnt know what.. You'd make them do it unless you didn't want them to be robots. :p Do you have a pet? If you do, would you rather your pet willingly love and obey you or would you rather force it to?
that was kinda my point.. if my dog shits and pisses all over my rug, im not going to say his free will is responsible, and/or that hes bad for doing it. that would make no sense since IM the one that penned him up.. IM the one that set it all up to happen. how can you fault the dog ?
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Odin.Liela
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10191
By Odin.Liela 2010-03-20 01:12:31
Caitsith.Silvaria said: Ragnarok.Psyence said: Caitsith.Silvaria said: It's impossible to be "against homosexuality" without judging the homosexual...and yet, judging others is not your job, it is the Christian god's job, and Jesus makes that quite clear.
The Old Testament does preach against homosexuality, but...Jesus preached love and acceptance, not judgment
Sorry to break it to you but... 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
That's in the new testament and it basically says homosexuals will not enter God's kingdom. Sure, it's not Jesus, it's St-Paul... but even the 4 people who wrote the gospels didn't meet Jesus.
Religion is not as tolerant as you'd love to think. If you chose to be tolerant, you should disassociate yourself from it, it will give you more credibility.
Heh...first, there are a number of Christian scholars who aren't entirely convinced that Paul's teachings were in-line with Jesus'...but that's another thread. Jesus himself never said a word against homosexuality...and since Christians put a great deal of weight on his words, his silence is disconcerting, at best.
Second of all...you are preaching to the choir, pun intended. I am not religious, and I do not think organized, Western religions are tolerant at all. They are extremely judgmental, which is what I was trying to explain to the other poster...Christianity, IMO, creates a paradox by forcing it's adherents to judge certain behaviors to be wrong, i.e., sin...and yet, by judging, they are going against the advice of their messiah, who said that only God has the right to judge. As humans with emotions and opinions, it is impossible for us to not judge the actions of others, which makes the preaching of non-judgment impossible to follow. 8(
I try to stay away from religion and all its bells and whistles. I do have a question for you, though. (not a troll question, an honest one.) I was raised in a strict Christian home, and the church of my parents taught the the Bible was written by men who were told by God what to write. In other words, nothing went into the bible that God did not intend. So if Paul's teachings were indeed different from God's and they ended up in the Bible anyways, then the church lied. Pure and simple. If Paul's teachings were the will of God and God 'told' him what to write, then Paul's teachings are in line with God's teachings and thus God or Jesus or whoever is supposedly in charge is against homosexuality. I find it disconcerting either way, if people are believing everything in the Bible as God's honest truth but in fact the Bible was written with the opinions of man, then people are following men, not God. If God inspired every single thing in the Bible, however, then apparently homosexuality, sex, fun, and ham sandwiches are all strictly forbidden. It can't go both ways, though, either the Bible is God's word or it's man's word, but it's not both.
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By Asura.Karianna 2010-03-20 01:12:31
Caitsith.Blurr said: also all done by PEOPLE. from the original actual texts (if even exist(unless someone can prove something to me in front of my own eyes, its just hearsay)) all the way to what we can buy in a bookstore today.. its all been done by people. there isnt one piece of tangible evidence out there that supports the existence of a god, much less the word of.. just a lot of hearsay at this point <.> Ahem. History text books are done by people. Should we disregard all world history because we haven't witnessed the stories ourselves? Of course not.
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Serveur: Asura
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Posts: 68
By Asura.Karianna 2010-03-20 01:17:33
Caitsith.Blurr said: that was kinda my point.. if my dog shits and pisses all over my rug, im not going to say his free will is responsible, and/or that hes bad for doing it. that would make no sense since IM the one that penned him up.. IM the one that set it all up to happen. how can you fault the dog ? Think about a mother telling her children to clean their rooms. Then she goes to their room and finds everything on the floor. She did not want this to happen, and yet, it is her will which has allowed it to happen. I would imagine a Christian would believe that God does not want men to sin, but His Will has allowed them to have their own free will to do it. Thus, the blame is on the man.
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Phoenix.Tealsic
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 128
By Phoenix.Tealsic 2010-03-20 01:17:38
walk across the street with your eyes closed i mean as long as you dont see the ford f150 going 100 MPH straight for you doesnt mean its gunna hit you....right....RIGHT!?!?!?!
or maybe have a friend put a fully loaded m9 to your head and close your eyes i mean even now you cant see it doesnt mean the bullets gunna even touch you right..... RIGHT?!?!?!
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Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
Game: FFXI
Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-20 01:18:55
Phoenix.Tealsic said: walk across the street with your eyes closed i mean as long as you dont see the ford f150 going 100 MPH straight for you doesnt mean its gunna hit you....right....RIGHT!?!?!?!
or maybe have a friend put a fully loaded m9 to your head and close your eyes i mean even ow you cant see it doesnt mean the bullets gunna even touch you right..... RIGHT?!?!?!
And? that was just stupid.
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 605
By Fairy.Specopsz 2010-03-20 01:20:33
I believe in LOLSAURESTOASTEROVERMIXERFIERANTHILLTERDLICKER
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Phoenix.Tealsic
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 128
By Phoenix.Tealsic 2010-03-20 01:21:58
saying you cant prove it so its not there is stupid ;b
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Caitsith.Blurr
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 786
By Caitsith.Blurr 2010-03-20 01:22:10
Asura.Karianna said: Caitsith.Blurr said: also all done by PEOPLE. from the original actual texts (if even exist(unless someone can prove something to me in front of my own eyes, its just hearsay)) all the way to what we can buy in a bookstore today.. its all been done by people. there isnt one piece of tangible evidence out there that supports the existence of a god, much less the word of.. just a lot of hearsay at this point <.> Ahem. History text books are done by people. Should we disregard all world history because we haven't witnessed the stories ourselves? Of course not.
call me a hypocrite or w.e, but yeah. i tend to believe things that have tangible evidence supporting. if me and 6 billion other people all look up at the sky and can agree is one color, and thats is x color.. ill believe it. however if 6 billion people look up at the sky, and see god, something you cant see hear taste smell or touch. im gonna be a lil skeptical personally
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Ragnarok.Psyence
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 471
By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-03-20 01:23:41
In the end, people will argue that their religion preaches peace and tolerance, but what they don't realize is: it is them who believe in peace and tolerance. I can preach peace and tolerance too, without even thinking there's a god out there. They do not need religion, religion needs them.
You have to at least partly blame the moderate followers for not either resigning from or protesting at an organization associated to so much misogyny, homophobia, killing and bigotry. For example, without a billion Muslims (who actually don't need a religion to believe in their God), the few Muslim extremists doing so much killing in their name, wouldn't have much to cling to. They'd be nothing without the hundreds of millions of fellow travelers who, by staying silent and living in denial, give their lunatic friends a reason to keep the nonsense going. I dislike the idea of have to dissociate the so-called moderates from the extremists in my head. If they truly wanted to dissociate, they could/should do it literally.
I thank you all for the talk, it was interesting to see some ideas clashing and people staying polite. What matters to me is that we we able to exchange. I don't think it will change the world, but if it made us think, it was useful. If it made some of us learn to doubt ourselves, even better.
Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
Game: FFXI
Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-20 01:25:58
Phoenix.Tealsic said: saying you cant prove it so its not there is stupid ;b
God is as obvious as a gun or a car everybody else can see?
When was the last time you could see god?
But that's true, because you cant prove it dont mean it's not true.
Science belive that there's parallel universes, and that we have more than 3 dimentions. But, do they teach this to everybody? No.
Can we see these others dimentions or universes? No.
Does science prove they are there? No.
Does this mean they arent there? No.
Does this mean they MIGHT be there? Yes.
Same thing with god, and I will belive what gets proven first.
Odin.Liela
Serveur: Odin
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Posts: 10191
By Odin.Liela 2010-03-20 01:26:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmHN3JtyUXg
Here, have a video to play with and argue over.
Edit: Not saying whether I agree or not with that vid, though most of you could probably guess. It's just something to think on, if you like. Or to ignore, if you don't like. Mostly I just like her accent.
Because it affects my life. That's the reason it bothers me. I wish for the demise of several organizations that I feel are destructive to me, my family, my friends and human evolution in general. Almost all countries in the world are ruled by religious people who, more than often, base their decisions on outdated beliefs rather than secular moral standards such as basic human rights, global awareness, tolerance towards difference and a genuine pursuit of peace.
That, my friend, is anything but reassuring.
Rationalists, those who chose, out of simple logic, not to believe in something supernatural, need to state their opinion, proudly and coherently. They need to have a place in society and politics, to be heard and to at least have a word on what the future's going to look like. Something as serious as the occupation of Iraq (close to 100000 have died in it) could probably have been avoided. If it wasn't for the fact that so many US voters based their vote on Bush's claim to have strong religious beliefs, rather than nonviolent ideologies, less people would be dead today.
Beliefs keep us from evolving because of what they are: Suppositions that were turned into artificial facts by irrational, although well intentioned people. The scientific approach goes in contradiction with the religious approach. I will show you that I have a baseball to prove that I own one. Instead, a religious person will dare you to prove that he doesn't have a baseball and your failing to demonstrate that he doesn't own one will make him feel justified.
Doubt, the very basis of knowledge: Doubt is the only way to keep our mind from falling into what I like to describe as "lazy mode". Doubt requires constant re-questioning of our assumptions and becomes harder as we grow old. We have to constantly remind ourselves that what we think we know... might be wrong.
Religions fundamentally discourage questioning; even when they pretend to do, they do it in a hypocritical way that discourages questioning even the relevance of believing. Oppositely, Science has, over the centuries, been re-evaluated from scratch, in the noble attempt to find some provable truths. Small truths, yes, but significant ones. The first scientists obviously believed in God; now, most don't.
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