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Religion: If you don't believe in it why does it bother you?
 Ragnarok.Psyence
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 471
By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-03-19 23:51:24
Asura.Karianna said: Every problem with religion presented thus far has to do not with the religion itself, but what people do with their religion. I've yet to see a convincing argument that religion is bad. We’ve already had our great experiment of eradicating religion. It was called the twentieth century, the most secular century in the history of mankind. What happened? Let’s see… Marxism, Communism, Fascism, Nazism, two World Wars, the Holocaust and other genocides, the atomic bomb, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Cold War, and the bloodiest century in human history… all in the name of secularism and scientific “progress”.
Let's see... Where do YOU live... Hmm... The United States. Alright. How many people in the US senate are non-believers. I'll give you 100$ if you find one. And that's a country with free speech, setting up the example to the world. Yet 16% of your population claims to be a non-believer. 20% of people under 30... There's never been killing in the name of non-believing, that would make no sense whatsoever. About history, you can't deny what religions did. It's still happening today. Rwanda being one of the MANY examples.
One of my points was that we non-believers are not represented. And that needs to change, whether you like it or not. We're just a little bit afraid of what you'll do with our future.
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Posts: 2680
By Siren.Clinpachi 2010-03-19 23:51:42
Asura.Israfel said: Siren.Clinpachi said: I don't personally believe in god but i understand the importance of religion in other people's lives.
Some people want to believe they are doing good with their life for a greater cause. They want to think they will be taken care of in the afterlife.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
I do have a problem with people trying to preach at me or try to persuade me into their religion.
I don't have issues with my life and take things as they come head on. I always strive to be a decent human being, open doors for people or at least hold them. I do what's right or courteous to other people.
Any true atheist/nonbeliever(or other fancy words for it)that isn't a 12 year old looking for attention or a way to disrupt the general public focuses on their self and common decency.
Otherwise your an anarchist. Many people get that confused.
I love the science theory where scientific explanation or theory come into play. AKA the sky is blue because of the gas in the atmosphere... not because a random god decided to make it that way.
I like the idea of why people think god exist and i could spend hours on the subject but i think i'll leave it at that.
/cheer ^-^ ~ I like you, you seem to be very level headed ^^
Thanks :D I really do see the importance for religion in people's lives and thats good. It makes for a more sensable population. If people need to feel a reason or path to follow then it's nobodys place to tell them otherwise.
But it's a double edged sword.
If you try to preach at me or persuade me you'll be sadly disappointed lol.
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Serveur: Asura
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By Asura.Israfel 2010-03-19 23:51:50
Leviathan.Chaosx said: Asura.Israfel said: @Chaos XD np dude! NP lol! You can quote me on saying this tho: Me said: As an Christian Atheist I can say:
I am not against homosexuality, regardless of what the Bible says.
I am not against other religions, I won't force my beliefs on others You too have earned cool points my friend! :)~
Leviathan.Terriel
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14
By Leviathan.Terriel 2010-03-19 23:52:23
I just keep this short and (not so) sweet. The moral pillars from which organized religions were based upon were meant to serve as guides for humans to live by (treating others with respect, stance against murder, stealing, etc.) However, they were simply guides. It is up to us as humans to interpret them in a manner which benefits us all. Instead, certain people choose to use the ideals of religion to suit their own needs, rather than those of the community as a whole. Others take religion too seriously and literally, to the point of the exclusion of others, case & point when someone is condemned for not following said religion to the letter.
It's not so much the idea of religion that is the culprit, it's our lack of responsibility to utilize religion in a universally beneficial manner which is.
One last point, although the freedom to choose one's own faith and practice it without fear of reprisal is noble in theory, it's impossible to satisfy and nurture the beliefs of each person because there will inevitably be clashes in opinion. In that sense, the only solution would be to have everyone following one faith to the letter, and we all know that won't happen don't we....It is what it is, but we can always strive to be better than what we currently are.
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 Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
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Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-19 23:53:26
Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
[+]
Serveur: Siren
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Posts: 2680
By Siren.Clinpachi 2010-03-19 23:53:36
On a related note... I am facinated by the ideas of Shintō or Buddhist ideals lol.
It's at least useful to learn what people worship and respect them.
It's sad that 90% of people reading this keep there ideas in the USA as if we were the only people on earth. Sad sad mcdonalds loving USA.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-03-19 23:53:59
Ragnarok.Psyence said: Let's see... Where do YOU live... Hmm... The United States. Alright. How many people in the US senate are non-believers. I'll give you 100$ if you find one. And that's a country with free speech, setting up the example to the world. Yet 16% of your population claims to be a non-believer. 20% of people under 30... There's never been killing in the name of non-believing, that would make no sense whatsoever. About history, you can't deny what religions did. It's still happening today. Rwanda being one of the MANY examples. Make it $1,000,000 and I'll try to run for senate. xD
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Posts: 1085
By Asura.Israfel 2010-03-19 23:54:51
@ Clinpachi -- Lol I don't like to preach to others, I think the choice of a path to follow should be made by oneself, not dictated by the people around them.
I fully respect your choices ^^ It takes courage and still takes a lot of work and effort to follow any path, regardless of what is said to be at the end of it ^0^
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-03-19 23:55:21
Leviathan.Terriel said: I just keep this short and (not so) sweet. The moral pillars from which organized religions were based upon were meant to serve as guides for humans to live by (treating others with respect, stance against murder, stealing, etc.) However, they were simply guides. It is up to us as humans to interpret them in a manner which benefits us all. Instead, certain people choose to use the ideals of religion to suit their own needs, rather than those of the community as a whole. Others take religion too seriously and literally, to the point of the exclusion of others, case & point when someone is condemned for not following said religion to the letter.
It's not so much the idea of religion that is the culprit, it's our lack of responsibility to utilize religion in a universally beneficial manner which is.
One last point, although the freedom to choose one's own faith and practice it without fear of reprisal is noble in theory, it's impossible to satisfy and nurture the beliefs of each person because there will inevitably be clashes in opinion. In that sense, the only solution would be to have everyone following one faith to the letter, and we all know that won't happen don't we....It is what it is, but we can always strive to be better than what we currently are. Amen!
 Caitsith.Blurr
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 786
By Caitsith.Blurr 2010-03-19 23:55:39
Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
kinda comparing apples and oranges there.. human self awareness is a lot different than say a tigers or a fish.
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Ragnarok.Psyence
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 471
By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-03-19 23:55:44
Leviathan.Terriel said: I just keep this short and (not so) sweet. The moral pillars from which organized religions were based upon were meant to serve as guides for humans to live by (treating others with respect, stance against murder, stealing, etc.) However, they were simply guides. It is up to us as humans to interpret them in a manner which benefits us all. Instead, certain people choose to use the ideals of religion to suit their own needs, rather than those of the community as a whole. Others take religion too seriously and literally, to the point of the exclusion of others, case & point when someone is condemned for not following said religion to the letter.
It's not so much the idea of religion that is the culprit, it's our lack of responsibility to utilize religion in a universally beneficial manner which is.
One last point, although the freedom to choose one's own faith and practice it without fear of reprisal is noble in theory, it's impossible to satisfy and nurture the beliefs of each person because there will inevitably be clashes in opinion. In that sense, the only solution would be to have everyone following one faith to the letter, and we all know that won't happen don't we....It is what it is, but we can always strive to be better than what we currently are.
faith = making a virtue out of not thinking
religion = using believers to do your bidding
guess what the result always is : lots of well intentioned people ending up doing *** up ***in the name of God
religion is dangerous, it's proven to be
believing is not dangerous, but when believers regroup and have leaders, then I have to oppose
we have to keep pretending that it's not destructive
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Posts: 2680
By Siren.Clinpachi 2010-03-19 23:56:42
Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
Good point and easy to argue but why trouble yourself on other people's life choices. That's my biggest thing unless your an anarchist why does it matter what other people think. Keep to yourself and family and you'll find you get through the day much easier lol.
I DO however agree that people without religion make it past problems coming out stronger and this is why:
1) They feel as if they made it through themselves and earned the right to say "it's over i made it".
2) People with religon come to expect or thank the god in question for solving the problem for them aka "God helped me through it i knew i would be ok".
That could probably spark a huge argument but in the human theory coming to "expect" vs "i made it through" WILL favor the person who feels they made it past the life trial themselves.
Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
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Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-19 23:57:44
Caitsith.Blurr said: Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
kinda comparing apples and oranges there.. human self awareness is a lot different than say a tigers or a fish.
But, why does some humans have the strenght to get through it, and some people need to belive in a god telling them it's going to be allright?
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 68
By Asura.Karianna 2010-03-19 23:57:50
Ragnarok.Psyence said: One of my points was that we non-believers are not represented. And that needs to change, whether you like it or not. We're just a little bit afraid of what you'll do with our future.
...Why are you associating me with the believers? I said I wasn't taking either side. All I did was point out the poor arguments being made against one of the sides, that being the religious side. And I don't see how what you just said has anything to do with what I said. I agree, both sides needs to be represented.
Ragnarok.Psyence
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Posts: 471
By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-03-19 23:57:52
the only thing I have faith in, is the ability of the human race to stop clinging to beliefs and take its destiny into its own hands
believing provides some comfort, but comes at a terrible price
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By Siren.Clinpachi 2010-03-19 23:58:31
Ragnarok.Psyence said: the only thing I have faith in, is the ability of the human race to stop clinging to beliefs and take its destiny into its own hands
believing provides some comfort, but comes at a terrible price
THAT is a nice quote. Goes with what i said above too.
Ragnarok.Psyence
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 471
By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-03-19 23:58:35
Asura.Karianna said: Ragnarok.Psyence said: One of my points was that we non-believers are not represented. And that needs to change, whether you like it or not. We're just a little bit afraid of what you'll do with our future.
...Why are you associating me with the believers? I said I wasn't taking either side. All I did was point out the poor arguments being made against one of the sides, that being the religious side. And I don't see how what you just said has anything to do with what I said. I agree, both sides needs to be represented.
Wow, must have gotten mixed up. lol
Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
Game: FFXI
Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-19 23:58:35
Siren.Clinpachi said: Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
Good point and easy to argue but why trouble yourself on other people's life choices. That's my biggest thing unless your an anarchist why does it matter what other people think. Keep to yourself and family and you'll find you get through the day much easier lol.
I DO however agree that people without religion make it past problems coming out stronger and this is why:
1) They feel as if they made it through themselves and earned the right to say "it's over i made it".
2) People with religon come to expect or thank the god in question for solving the problem for them aka "God helped me through it i knew i would be ok".
That could probably spark a huge argument but in the human theory coming to "expect" vs "i made it through" WILL favor the person who feels they made it past the life trial themselves.
I agree.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-03-19 23:58:38
Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's because animals can't reason. It has to do with brain function and whatnot. Give a creature the ability to reason and eventually they want to know what are they are doing existing so to speak. Whether or not that makes you weaker or stronger is another question.
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By Asura.Israfel 2010-03-19 23:59:34
Hades.Kvazz said: But, why does some humans have the strenght to get through it, and some people need to belive in a god telling them it's going to be allright?
Some things are just too much to tackle alone sometimes ><, Whether you look to moral support from a friend or from your 'deity', it all helps I think^^;... or atleast it helped me haha
Serveur: Garuda
Game: FFXI
Posts: 464
By Garuda.Feifongwong 2010-03-19 23:59:45
Siren.Clinpachi said: I don't personally believe in god but i understand the importance of religion in other people's lives.
Some people want to believe they are doing good with their life for a greater cause. They want to think they will be taken care of in the afterlife.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
I do have a problem with people trying to preach at me or try to persuade me into their religion.
I don't have issues with my life and take things as they come head on. I always strive to be a decent human being, open doors for people or at least hold them. I do what's right or courteous to other people.
Any true atheist/nonbeliever (or other fancy words for it) that isn't a 12 year old looking for attention or a way to disrupt the general public focuses on their self (or close few family/relatives) and common decency.
Otherwise your an anarchist. Many people get that confused.
I love the science theory where scientific explanation or theory come into play. AKA the sky is blue because of the gas in the atmosphere... not because a random god decided to make it that way.
I like the idea of why people think god exist and i could spend hours on the subject but i think i'll leave it at that.
Personally I love scientific theory too. It is able to prove a lot, although its not perfect. However, there is 1 fact in life and death. You and no living person knows what happens when a person dies. So, why does anyone care about it? There is no way to prove either way as of yet. We should all believe what we want until the final time when we all find out.
 Remora.Dubont
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Posts: 629
By Remora.Dubont 2010-03-20 00:00:22
Ragnarok.Psyence said:
faith = making a virtue out of not thinking
religion = using believers to do your bidding
guess what the result always is : lots of well intentioned people ending up doing *** up ***in the name of God
religion is dangerous, it's proven to be
believing is not dangerous, but when believers regroup and have leaders, then I have to oppose
we have to keep pretending that it's not destructive
Ok so this is actually turning into something more than just u ranting about religion. It comes down to this: Yes it may be destructive but it is what people have lived with all of their lives. For example, the Christian religion is very young, but it is older than you are. YOU AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE IT. Please stop trying. Until the world sees their religion do something entirely destructive, it will always be here. Take Mormons for instance....1 man..many wives...sex with children...no caffeine...fire doesn't exist really? but it is still here so stop crying and just live with it. Debate at a debate but don't ever EVER straight up bash a religion until you are legitimately provoked sir.
Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
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Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-20 00:01:14
Asura.Israfel said: Hades.Kvazz said: But, why does some humans have the strenght to get through it, and some people need to belive in a god telling them it's going to be allright?
Some things are just too much to tackle alone sometimes ><, Whether you look to moral support from a friend or from your 'deity', it all helps I think^^;... or atleast it helped me haha
Personally I've had no problems handling tough stuff all by myself, a friend of mine killed himself because "god didnt asnwer him" when he had a bad time.
It's all very personal I guess >_>
[+]
Ragnarok.Psyence
Serveur: Ragnarok
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Posts: 471
By Ragnarok.Psyence 2010-03-20 00:01:39
Hades.Kvazz said: Caitsith.Blurr said: Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
kinda comparing apples and oranges there.. human self awareness is a lot different than say a tigers or a fish.
But, why does some humans have the strenght to get through it, and some people need to belive in a god telling them it's going to be allright?
they don't need it... they are being told by dangerous religious organizations that's there's a hole in their heart, something missing, that they need to fill with faith... i've yet to see a religion that tells you you don't need something, they want you to be dependent, they don't want you to self-determine yourself
that ***is wicked i tell you...
[+]
Caitsith.Blurr
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 786
By Caitsith.Blurr 2010-03-20 00:01:51
Hades.Kvazz said: Caitsith.Blurr said: Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
kinda comparing apples and oranges there.. human self awareness is a lot different than say a tigers or a fish.
But, why does some humans have the strenght to get through it, and some people need to belive in a god telling them it's going to be allright?
just part of the human complex. through a combination of nature and nurture we all turn out however we turn out, no reliable/practical ways of controlling it.
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Posts: 2680
By Siren.Clinpachi 2010-03-20 00:02:19
Garuda.Feifongwong said: Siren.Clinpachi said: I don't personally believe in god but i understand the importance of religion in other people's lives.
Some people want to believe they are doing good with their life for a greater cause. They want to think they will be taken care of in the afterlife.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
I do have a problem with people trying to preach at me or try to persuade me into their religion.
I don't have issues with my life and take things as they come head on. I always strive to be a decent human being, open doors for people or at least hold them. I do what's right or courteous to other people.
Any true atheist/nonbeliever (or other fancy words for it) that isn't a 12 year old looking for attention or a way to disrupt the general public focuses on their self (or close few family/relatives) and common decency.
Otherwise your an anarchist. Many people get that confused.
I love the science theory where scientific explanation or theory come into play. AKA the sky is blue because of the gas in the atmosphere... not because a random god decided to make it that way.
I like the idea of why people think god exist and i could spend hours on the subject but i think i'll leave it at that.
Personally I love scientific theory too. It is able to prove a lot, although its not perfect. However, there is 1 fact in life and death. You and no living person knows what happens when a person dies. So, why does anyone care about it? There is no way to prove either way as of yet. We should all believe what we want until the final time when we all find out.
Another woosh! For all we know.. we may be dug up 5000 years from now like we are the Egyptian mummies. Looking into the past and wondering how it was to be us.
Dinosaurs, Aztecs/Mayans... it all shows the same path in history. Science and TECHNOLOGY however will probably continue making things different... it's only a matter of time until we shoot the departed into space lol.
 Gilgamesh.Andras
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Posts: 705
By Gilgamesh.Andras 2010-03-20 00:02:42
Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
We are stronger than other animals... cause we eat them
[+]
Caitsith.Blurr
Serveur: Caitsith
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Posts: 786
By Caitsith.Blurr 2010-03-20 00:03:47
Gilgamesh.Andras said: Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
We are stronger than other animals... cause we eat them
win
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2680
By Siren.Clinpachi 2010-03-20 00:03:55
Wooshx2
[+]
Hades.Kvazz
Serveur: Hades
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Posts: 341
By Hades.Kvazz 2010-03-20 00:03:57
Gilgamesh.Andras said: Hades.Kvazz said: Basicly, the human race is weak. Other animals dont need to belive in a higher power to get through problems in their lives.
What makes so many of us humans need to belive in this higher power? Allways wanted to know the answer to that question..
Stupid if you ask me >_>
People who dont belive in god get through the same problems just as well, to me these people seem stronger, but that's just the way I see it.
We are stronger than other animals... cause we eat them
Animals eat us too.
Because it affects my life. That's the reason it bothers me. I wish for the demise of several organizations that I feel are destructive to me, my family, my friends and human evolution in general. Almost all countries in the world are ruled by religious people who, more than often, base their decisions on outdated beliefs rather than secular moral standards such as basic human rights, global awareness, tolerance towards difference and a genuine pursuit of peace.
That, my friend, is anything but reassuring.
Rationalists, those who chose, out of simple logic, not to believe in something supernatural, need to state their opinion, proudly and coherently. They need to have a place in society and politics, to be heard and to at least have a word on what the future's going to look like. Something as serious as the occupation of Iraq (close to 100000 have died in it) could probably have been avoided. If it wasn't for the fact that so many US voters based their vote on Bush's claim to have strong religious beliefs, rather than nonviolent ideologies, less people would be dead today.
Beliefs keep us from evolving because of what they are: Suppositions that were turned into artificial facts by irrational, although well intentioned people. The scientific approach goes in contradiction with the religious approach. I will show you that I have a baseball to prove that I own one. Instead, a religious person will dare you to prove that he doesn't have a baseball and your failing to demonstrate that he doesn't own one will make him feel justified.
Doubt, the very basis of knowledge: Doubt is the only way to keep our mind from falling into what I like to describe as "lazy mode". Doubt requires constant re-questioning of our assumptions and becomes harder as we grow old. We have to constantly remind ourselves that what we think we know... might be wrong.
Religions fundamentally discourage questioning; even when they pretend to do, they do it in a hypocritical way that discourages questioning even the relevance of believing. Oppositely, Science has, over the centuries, been re-evaluated from scratch, in the noble attempt to find some provable truths. Small truths, yes, but significant ones. The first scientists obviously believed in God; now, most don't.
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