Your Opinion About Claustrum

While true, the number of situations where a PLD 'good enough' to have a Burtgang can't melee are becoming rarer and rarer. Burt is great for kiting (amazing in fact due to the reduced enmity loss) and blood tanking.

Dynamis is one one of the only places where PLD still blood tanks, but nearly any city mob can be tanked by a DD (and a PLD hasn't got a chance of holding hate) so that leaves northlands/CoP dynamis (wher a DD can't reasonably tank). Other blood tanking situations are DI and JoL (although Excal excels here in terms of melee DoT).

Kiting, well there is only 2 fights that I can think of that are still kited, KB and Kirin.

For everything else PLD is better off with Excalibur or even Joyeuse

what you're an idiot, yes i agree. burtgang is worthless

with aegis, burt, dring, shadow set and valhalla gear why ever go /nin?

Because getting hit for 0 > getting hit for 500. which is what a lot of endgame mobs will still do even with all of that gear.

the only mob that burtgang is remotely viable is on dark ixion, anything else excal will crush it

Because taking zero damage is better than taking not much.

/nin allows you to build more hate from atonement spam along with more damage and require less healing support.

I am failing to see a reason to want to blood tank.

While there are few situations a pld can't melee there are many many where it makes things more difficult. If you are going at it low man with little enough support and the mob has bad tp moves then yeah I wouldn't melee it. And dmg reduction is still nice /nin. Not to mention +emnity and emnity reduction lessening since plds will still get hit

Your PLD is Lv1. Your point of view on Burtgang is moot. Also, ***is situational. In a situation where you would not engage (or even if you were engaged, but shouldn't be feeding TP to a mob with Joytoy or something) Burtgang is a very nice thing to have. Saying Burtgang is worthless is like saying Hauteclaire is worthless. Yeah, sure, Excalibur is nice for Atonement spam. But outside those situations, what are you going to use?

Easy there, angry bear. The only point I was trying to make was that Burtgang isn't a piece of crap, and can certainly be better in some situations than Excalibur.

This is stupid. Why do people keep bringing up this "Your XYZ isn't 75, so gtfo" ***. I'm not a fking mathematician, but I can still tell people that 1 + 2 = 3.

If you aren't engaged, and you need your shield, and are taking only physical damage ( ie no TerraStaff/ IR Lance), then sure Burtgang beats Aegis/Joytoy. Arta said in general relic > mythic and you disagreed; hence everyone explaining the reasons that Excalibur > Burtgang. Of course ***is situational. There are some times where an Earth Staff is better than an Excalibur. Doesn't mean that the 10k AH item > Relic.

liberator > apocalypse

just sayin

I will admit, Excalibur is a very sexy weapon, but when it comes to true endgame, Excalibur has less uses than Burtgang. Granted, if you look at what each respective relic/mythic brings to the table, Excalibur is a far sexier weapon, however unless if you're in a skilled lowman linkshell where you really depend on the extra damage to beat a rage timer or kill Odin within 30 mins, Excalibur offers no significant value to a TANK.

Burtgang offers benefit in more situations than Excalibur does. Physical damage taken -10% is always helpful when a Paladin is caught with their pants down (no shadows up and neither recast is up). -10% isn't a game changer in most situations but if you're solo tanking Tiamat (or let's just assume your cotank blows and isn't capable of maintaining even levels of hate even if you nerf your usage of hate tools)... get hit with mighty strikes up AND he hits you twice in a row, the physical damage reduction may curb enough damage to keep you alive. Being hit for 700-800+ with each critical would mean instant death in many cases if you get hit twice in a row.

Also, the +10 enmity & enmity loss reduction from Burtgang makes it easier for Paladin to keep their C.E./V.E. hate capped, so you are less likely to have instances where a BLM will pull hate, even temporarily, over the PLD. Granted, this doesn't guarantee you'll hold hate but it gives you a slight advantage.

Excalibur does nothing but add more damage, and even then the additional effect damage is hate-free. Burtgang offers way more to a tank than Excalibur ever could. Unfortunately with the evolution of Pld/Nin & Atonement, Burtgang is overlooked. Yes, if you are in a fight where Atonement is necessary you are better off using a Joyeuse but most HNMs are typically tanked without drawing your sword. You're better off idle tanking and/or kiting in hauteclaire/burtgang/mac+1, not Excalibur.

One final point I want to add: With SCH/RDM brickwalling tanks, it is ridiculously easy to tank things with someone keeping stoneskin up. You will likely cast shadows even if you manage to get hit because the damage taken rarely breaks through stoneskin, especially if you have Phalanx up as well. If you were to stack that damage taken with a D.Ring, Hauteclaire, Burtgang, etc. you can understand why Pld/Nin tanking is considered broken by some.

Okay i'm done rambling.. [awaits the lolAFK @ JoL argument]

Lol + absorb duration

lol'd
Because PLD can't DD for ***, amirite? Damage is damage, faster kills are awesome and win. -10% PDT is a DRing and DRing is situational, thus so is Burtgang. It's a Hauteclaire +1, which means you basically use it in the same situations... depending on your shell, that's constantly (forced to turtle everywhere) or a handful of fights (Atonement PLDs 95% of the times you actually bring PLDs). The enmity borders on irrelevance because PLD like any other tank worth a damn has no issue with hate generation and once you cap hate all you have to do is maintain that hate level, which can be done with a cure cheat every so often.

Burtgang is arguably more situational than Excalibur...

On topic: not worth it, ever.

Oh yes, that old chestnut. I can't possibly know anything about a job as I haven't leveled it.

The point you seem to be missing is: Situations where you can spam atonement a FAAAAAAR more common than the situations where you can't (see my previous post where I posted the situations).

On what possible measure is Liberator better than Apoc?

I'd do a relic to set myself apart if I ever had enough gil.. like kikoku or kikoku

Claustrum is just a waste, no use other than trolling your dynamis shell

lrn2joke argietto^

Well I do know a guy that got blm mythic even after we knew how much it failed...

guy on valefor had stage4 last time I saw him which was quite a while ago.. I personally wouldnt go to a dynamis shell funding a claustrum

edit: well tbh it could have been stage 2/3/4 I dont remember, but it was a stage of relic staff.. looks like he quit though

http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=474237#home

<.<

Haut, Joytoy, Excal and Burtgang are all situational at best and none of them is "x" > "y"

Edit: I dont even know a situation when you would need to fulltime a Haut, maybe Lowmanning stuff using a -physical set, or Khim since hes resistant to Atonement, but thats still meh.

Double Edit: Yeah i didnt think of KB, Burtgang may be viable for that.

Oh I'm not saying Burtgang is the best thing since sliced bread. But to assume Excalibur brings more to the table to a TANK is not true. I never said a Paladin isn't capable of damage, because I generally parse pretty high on things like Cerberus compared to other damage dealers.

Burtgang is useful in every fight, but it is not a game breaking item. Unless you insist on straight tanking King Behemoth and melee'ing with your Excalibur, you must be willing to admit the fact that Burtgang has more uses in endgame than Excalibur does, even if it's not all that great.

Nightfyre, a PLD is first and foremost a tank. Damage output is secondary. Atonement does wonders for helping a PLD with hate but you don't rely on melee'ing. Also, let's look at your argument of "Atonement PLDs 95% of the times you actually bring PLDs)...

Fafnir/Nidhogg - usually TP'ed
King Behemoth - usually NOT TP'ed
Aspid - usually TP'ed
Dark Ixion - usually NOT TP'ed
Sandworm - usually TP'ed
Tiamat - usually NOT TP'ed
Khimaira - usually NOT TP'ed
Cerberus - usually TP'ed
Odin - usually TP'ed

With 8 HNMs and 1 Einherjar boss, you typically TP 5 of the 9 instances. That's hardly 95%. Now let's see if a Burtgang would benefit any of these fights:

Fafnir/Nidhogg - Can benefit from -10% PDT and enmity loss reduction
King Behemoth - Can benefit from -10% PDT and enmity loss reduction
Aspid - Can benefit from -10% PDT and enmity loss reduction
Dark Ixion - Can benefit from -10% PDT and enmity loss reduction
Sandworm - Can benefit from -10% PDT and enmity loss reduction
Tiamat - Can benefit from -10% PDT and enmity loss reduction
Khimaira - Can benefit from -10% PDT and enmity loss reduction
Cerberus - Can benefit from -10% PDT and enmity loss reduction
Odin - Can benefit from -10% PDT and enmity loss reduction

Although Burtgang is not the preferred weapon of choice in all of these fights (you'd likely be using Joyeuse on the TP'able fights) you can clearly see Burtgang has more uses than Excalibur on Paladin, even if it's not the sword of choice.

Damage on PLD is helpful but it's not their expected role. That's like arguing Mandau on BRD is more useful than Gjallarhorn because the added damage from Mandau makes fights go faster.

/facepalm

Anything I do I generally do low man. Extraneous tping is generally frowned upon in those situations even if normally it would be fine.

Agreed. I prefer not to feed HNMs TP personally. However, if we went with that argument Excalibur would be worthless, so I'm giving this guy the benefit of the doube we're willing to take on adequate risk and TP safer HNMs.

His argument is the same I get from everyone who believes Excalibur is a PLD's best friend. It's more epeen than practical, unless you do 6-8 man Fafnirs daily.

Guttler or go home

^

ahh I couldnt think of that one lol didnt want to wiki it.. guttler would be cool too

GUTTLER THIRSTY

Guttler is pretty sick. If war could use it omg wars might actually use axes again.

E.body BST with Guttler ftw :x

Giving Bst main E Body ftl >.>

well if they have a guttler... lol

As it is very late and I am tired I won't do the maths.

But if you have more than about 4-5 DDs on a mob, it will have effectively 'infinite' TP (it is getting TP as fast as it can use it). So having a PLD engage will not actually lead to more TP moves.

The only time a 'Turtle' PLD would be better is in low man situation or where you are trying to restrict TP feeding (Khim etc).

If you're going to DD with a claustrum just to get the 8MP refresh why not just use a normal stave and use the Spirit taker WS to gain MP ?

Other than that Claustrum is possibly the biggest waste of money in the game , screw the benefits for others or LS but its not even benificial for yourself .

Get some other relic or even a mythic so many other possibilities instead of this piece of crap.

Even Guttler is better than that because you at least get to DD as beast and it brings some sort of Joy.

Yeah I've never been in a shell that could support putting 4-5 DDs on a mob. For that matter I've been in very few could even field 4-5DDs after getting tank pt done even without support. So I've always had to limit tp gain. So blm and sam dmg ftw.

Also turtle implies max def/vit/-dmg but really you should still be in fast cast/haste gear a bit with all the flash/utsesmi casting regardless of weather you are meleeing or not.