I'm not accepting any World First clears without evidence of each and every single player in the group (including outside buffers prior to entering fight) recording their entire run from a Nokia phone strapped to their head, while booting up their PS2 on a dial-up connection into POL.
I'll take nothing less.
Oathsworn Blade Master Trial - Cleared
Oathsworn Blade Master Trial - Cleared
RadialArcana said: »
【FF11】盟約の剣【マスタートライアル】
Video from Xolla 11 channel.
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Video from Xolla 11 channel.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Ovalidal said: »
As much as I love the FFXIV race scene, it's a bit of a catastrophe. It's also odd that you're so particular about this topic, Thorny. I think your clear of Black and White is pure awesome, but you aren't exactly above suspicion.
Whataboutism isn't a very effective defense to an accusation, TBH.
Thorny is obviously a massive cheater, he's said in at least 100 threads that he uses bots heavily.
The identity of people who are speaking up doesn't change anything about the burden of proof though, so I don't really see the point in bringing this up except randomly throwing ***at the wall to see if it sticks.
I don’t know why this is addressed to me. The only two people I’ve taken issue with are Eiryl (which, that’s on me) and Kadokawa.
I wasn’t criticizing Thorny, nor did I have any ill-intent with this comment. While I think he can be obtuse, this had nothing to do with my comment. I thought there was a double standard between him criticising the group’s use of tools while he himself uses plenty. I learned I was wrong though when he pointed out that he doesn’t credit his clears, due to the reliance on tools. As much as he lives up to his name’s sake, he has brought a lot of discussion to this topic, something that we can all agree is an overall good thing, even if you find yourself on the opposing side of that discussion.
He also has a very clear and reasonable logic behind his disapproval of Shiraj’s group’s clear. As do you. I don’t have any issue with this, everyone is free to hold to their own standard. As far as Eiryl and Kadokawa, they may have a reasonable standard too, but rather than bringing it up for discussion, they take cheap shots instead.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
OK sure, you "may" disagree. Do you disagree? Which of the things I listed do you consider OK for a "legitimate" world first clear? What makes you think those things are OK? What is your standard for a legitimate clear? Does it happen to be the way that your friends play?
The reason I say it doesn’t matter is because I haven’t pushed for my own standard. I’ve only taken issues with those taking cheap shots. As far as where we disagree, I don’t think a video is necessary to say that a clear is “legit”, but it’s also unfair for me to insist that. I’ve had the opportunity to talk to a couple of the members who cleared pretty extensively about a lot of this stuff. And no, despite what you say, I didn’t know these people from Adam before I reached out to BigT over the CP clear.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
I'm not involved in the "world first" discussion, I don't care if these guys have "the title" or want to claim that their win was legitimate. Go for it. But if YOU (plural) care about it, and want to assign that title to a specific group, you should probably be willing to have their record scrutinized and not spend the entire thread shutting down criticism and asking for praise instead. It is, as the kids would say, real sus.
Where have I been shutting people down for their criticisms of this group in this thread? Please point it out. If I have tried to “shut down” conversation outside of cheap shots, I owe everyone a public apology.
Maletaru, the title doesn’t really mean all that much at the end of the day. And I’m not really capable of giving it to anyone in any real sense. If you care about the topic, you get to pick for yourself who’s clear you consider first. I’m just a nerd, editing videos in my computer closet. It’s just something I find very interesting, and a couple of weirdos who were generous enough to sit through my poorly edited video think the topic is interesting too.
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Ovalidal said: »
The #1 reason they don't care to share info on here anymore is because there are a few people here who care way more about jumping on every misstep these players have then they do about discussing ideas / celebrating achievements.
This is the statement (of yours) that made me think of shutting down criticism and encouraging praise. There are others, but not from you.
In hindsight it could be seen to apply only to those "few people" but the call to action is still: don't criticize them, do praise them.
Ovalidal said: »
But the fact that, it was the "meanies" who stayed on AH, and not the top FFXI players has unfortunately made this a much less interesting place. After all, "meanies" are a dime a dozen, but top players don't exactly grow on trees.
This similarly irks me because it implies there are two classes of people who are entirely distinct: those who are great and those who are mean. There are plenty of people who are both, and plenty who are neither.
The drops from this fight can be sold for $ if the strategy can be replicated easily, keep this in mind.
A- what’s the most interesting is SE itself didnt if it was or not or can tell if the content was clear both… very interesting.
B- they couldn’t tell you if they cheated either. On 14, the first group to clear cheated all the way, got their rewards and SE said “we disappointed” //SlowClap.
C- some people love to just diminish others because well they are not them
D- pretty sure “6xbotting” is highly demanding, at least in any content that require something else than bats stuck in a tomb. For some people, Thorny/sil/sel/others must have a lot of knowledge, and maybe clearer picture of game mechanisms than purist.
E- then there’s Gav and us waiting patiently for a SB/BH strat, hurry up, why does it take so long.
Enjoy this Saturday with my stupid comments but stop throwing each other under the bus.
B- they couldn’t tell you if they cheated either. On 14, the first group to clear cheated all the way, got their rewards and SE said “we disappointed” //SlowClap.
C- some people love to just diminish others because well they are not them
D- pretty sure “6xbotting” is highly demanding, at least in any content that require something else than bats stuck in a tomb. For some people, Thorny/sil/sel/others must have a lot of knowledge, and maybe clearer picture of game mechanisms than purist.
E- then there’s Gav and us waiting patiently for a SB/BH strat, hurry up, why does it take so long.
Enjoy this Saturday with my stupid comments but stop throwing each other under the bus.
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Say whatever you want, everyone in Asura knows those people are cheaters, also that is why no one is defending them from Asura.
Cheating and asking for public recogintion and expect no one will expose them is plain stupid.
No one could say anything regarding Xolla's group because they are well known players for years that helped the community to beat many tough fights.
Cheating and asking for public recogintion and expect no one will expose them is plain stupid.
No one could say anything regarding Xolla's group because they are well known players for years that helped the community to beat many tough fights.
Who *** gives a ***
Genuinely
Game is so *** dead and so few people even cared about attempting this ***fight that you should celebrate any and all kills of it
The community is too *** small to fight over ***like this
This is how your community dies
*** off with this ***
Genuinely
Game is so *** dead and so few people even cared about attempting this ***fight that you should celebrate any and all kills of it
The community is too *** small to fight over ***like this
This is how your community dies
*** off with this ***
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Kadokawa said: »
Say whatever you want, everyone in Asura knows those people are cheaters, also that is why no one is defending them from Asura.
Cheating and asking for public recogintion and expect no one will expose them is plain stupid.
No one could say anything regarding Xolla's group because they are well known players for years that helped the community to beat many tough fights.
Cheating and asking for public recogintion and expect no one will expose them is plain stupid.
No one could say anything regarding Xolla's group because they are well known players for years that helped the community to beat many tough fights.
This is absolutely not true. And this is coming from a guy who would absolutely bully that group on a daily basis in Asura.
I haven't come across a single person that didn't appreciate them clearing and more especially being the first ones to do it.
Nobody I know downplayed their achievement. It actually made a lot of people want to beat it. Come up with a better approach etc.
So, for you.. stop it.. get some help! Try to outshine them by showing your accomplishment otherwise you are going to look like you are just channeling your jealousness.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Ovalidal said: »
The #1 reason they don't care to share info on here anymore is because there are a few people here who care way more about jumping on every misstep these players have then they do about discussing ideas / celebrating achievements.
This is the statement (of yours) that made me think of shutting down criticism and encouraging praise. There are others, but not from you.
In hindsight it could be seen to apply only to those "few people" but the call to action is still: don't criticize them, do praise them.
Look who its a response to though. It was a (second hand) response to Kadokawa taking cheap shots at the group. Taken out of context, I can understand why this would bother someone, but many things out of context can be bothersome. If I had issue with criticism, I would have been hounding Thorny since day 1, but I haven't because Thorny (regardless of whether you like his approach or hate his approach) has brought about the conversation, the exact thing I want to see more of. I suppose I worded that poorly, but this accusation towards me about wanting less honest discussion is bizarre, because it's the very thing I've been pushing for.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Ovalidal said: »
But the fact that, it was the "meanies" who stayed on AH, and not the top FFXI players has unfortunately made this a much less interesting place. After all, "meanies" are a dime a dozen, but top players don't exactly grow on trees.
This similarly irks me because it implies there are two classes of people who are entirely distinct: those who are great and those who are mean. There are plenty of people who are both, and plenty who are neither.
I concede, this is worded poorly. But again, look who it's addressed to. We both know, when Eiryl is in a trolling mood, nuanced conversation is lost on him. Beyond that, I don't know anyone in their right mind who would think that being rude and being a great player are mutually exclusive. I would hope that goes without saying. But I was referring to a common point I heard from multiple world-first players from the older (pre 2023) master trials that I've talked to.
All I want is more discussion about this topic. If my stance against cheap shots inhibits this, I'll refrain.
Why do you guys care so much about who gets first clear? You care more than us lol. The only thing we wanted from sharing any strat was to show people how to do it so more people could clear the fight. If we got first clear nice that's another one, if not then oh well, better luck next time. It's not as deep as you think. We don't care for world's first or recognition in a 23 year old MMO lmao. omg we got worlds first Team liquid is gonna sign us. Get a grip brother. We do not need, nor want any validation from people on ffxiah as if it's a sign of approval, nobody cares lol.
If we really wanted worlds first and recognition we'd keep everything hush hush and secretive until we won, right? So why would I go around personally asking to team up with people I know are attempting?
We got world's first Crystal Paradise clear but released no video and never got accused of cheating, people were able to replicate the writeup and get the win so what's different to this fight? Make up your mind what you're upset about, no wonder people are leaving this site with a bunch of idiots complaining about everything, critiquing everything as if anyone is in any position to critique anyone. Just be happy the fight got cleared again, that's a W for the ffxi community, but you *** are ruining it. Enjoy it man.
If we really wanted worlds first and recognition we'd keep everything hush hush and secretive until we won, right? So why would I go around personally asking to team up with people I know are attempting?
We got world's first Crystal Paradise clear but released no video and never got accused of cheating, people were able to replicate the writeup and get the win so what's different to this fight? Make up your mind what you're upset about, no wonder people are leaving this site with a bunch of idiots complaining about everything, critiquing everything as if anyone is in any position to critique anyone. Just be happy the fight got cleared again, that's a W for the ffxi community, but you *** are ruining it. Enjoy it man.
Asura.Shiraj said: »
We got world's first Crystal Paradise clear but released no video and never got accused of cheating, people were able to replicate the writeup and get the win so what's different to this fight?
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Asura.Shiraj said: »
The only thing we wanted from sharing any strat was to show people how to do it so more people could clear the fight.
Asura.Shiraj said: »
We got world's first Crystal Paradise clear but released no video and never got accused of cheating, people were able to replicate the writeup and get the win so what's different to this fight?
Asura.Shiraj said: »
Make up your mind what you're upset about, no wonder people are leaving this site with a bunch of idiots complaining about everything, critiquing everything as if anyone is in any position to critique anyone. Just be happy the fight got cleared again, that's a W for the ffxi community, but you *** are ruining it. Enjoy it man.
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Shiva.Thorny said: »
Despite how many of my comments in the first thread turned out to be valid for this strategy, you shut them all down with the attitude that it couldn't be possible. This applies to both larger strategy components like keeping range to prevent null field and small things like how bztavian shadows work or the viability of crowd control debuffs.
We tried a magic WS setup with Leaden etc but we only tried 2 CORs, because we thought we needed a bard to reach the Acc cap, at the time of initial prog during those times we could've optimised a couple things but those weren't found out till vod reviews later down the line. I did not want to be the "authority" on what was possible, I wanted to have a discussion with people doing the fight and discuss realistic things at the time with current knowledge.
If this really was just as simple as "keep August at range to avoid Null field" then why the hell did a group as good as Xolla's take 13 months to beat the fight...
Shiva.Thorny said: »
I don't think anybody cared about Crystal Paradise. Every solid group beat it as soon as they had a few hours to sink into it. It's a neat first kill, but it's not comparable to something that took months to be cleared. Further, the strategy you used for this would benefit substantially from certain cheats, and your team has a reputation for using those types of things. If you were fibbing about what was used, you'd have presented a strategy that may not actually be possible for legitimate players.
We wouldn't have given a strategy if we knew it wasn't doable though. That's stupid af, even if we did use all the automation in the world. If we did use all that good automation this dumb fight wouldn't have took us 10 months to beat. We were struggling so hard on dps to test stuff on Teodor until we added a ton of outside prebuffs which prevented roughly 1/3 of the regen from August from piling up. The only players who are going to beat this fight are the actual good players, not the people who think V25s are hard and luck based... They don't stand a chance, even with the addons. At least till another strat comes out.
Shiva.Thorny said: »
I really don't think Xolla would consider anyone evaluating your clear to be 'ruining' his own accomplishment. Yea, you don't want anyone looking deeper into it. But, you have the videos. If you're not doing anything shady, you could post them and there'd be a whole lot of egg on faces. This seems like more 'randomly throwing ***at the wall to see if it sticks'.
TL:DR - the strat is viable for "legit" players however you wanna define that, but the main thing is you'll need over 10 people outside prebuff you... Oh and Luck. A lot of luck. We only won with near perfect lottery numbers luck. We had around 10-15 (mostly CORs for resets) because the fight is dumb and we couldn't figure another method out to meet the dps check. Hopefully someone does and that method is easier.
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The thread more meaningful and engaging than the fight will ever be
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Shiva.Thorny said: »
and your team has a reputation for using those types of things
As do the majority of "endgame" NA players in this game, running around with Windower, gearswap, superwarp, etc. Everyone draws their own line in the sand in terms of what's unacceptable and what's just QoL. Frankly it's a boring conversation at this point in the game that's been beaten to death. Of course we wanted to release a video, but the fact is there is a large group in the JP community that are vanilla crusaders; if some content creator posts a video with UI addon usage, they spread it around to one another encouraging people in their group to report that person. If you're running icon packs in a random ambuscade video, you wouldn't have much to worry about, but for a fight like this that has more attention, it would be stupid of us to release a video in which the POV is using UI mods. You're reasonably intelligent so I assume you know this.
For that reason, we've ruled a video out - it's not happening. You're free to jump to whatever wild conclusions you want to from that. Aside from the release of a video, we've tried to be as transparent as reasonably possible with info sharing. Shiraj has already stated that he used anchor, at least during progression. I presume he was using it on the kill pull, but I don't even know offhand because its use is so inconsequential in that encounter. The knockback is small, and can be fully ignored by tanking up against a wall. There's also no strategic downside of having to tank up against a wall on that encounter; in fact we did tank him up against a wall on our clear. If you think that invalidates our kill, then you're of course entitled to that opinion, but I have to say that you'd be wildly overstating the value that anchor provides on that encounter. On the other hand, what does provide a massive advantage is finding an exploit that breaks August's AI to the point where he gets frozen into a loop and stops doing anything altogether. If only we had known about that "cheat" sooner...
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Asura.Bigtymer said: »
As do the majority of "endgame" NA players in this game, running around with Windower, gearswap, superwarp, etc. Everyone draws their own line in the sand in terms of what's unacceptable and what's just QoL. Frankly it's a boring conversation at this point in the game that's been beaten to death. Of course we wanted to release a video, but the fact is there is a large group in the JP community that are vanilla crusaders; if some content creator posts a video with UI addon usage, they spread it around to one another encouraging people in their group to report that person. If you're running icon packs in a random ambuscade video, you wouldn't have much to worry about, but for a fight like this that has more attention, it would be stupid of us to release a video in which the POV is using UI mods. You're reasonably intelligent so I assume you know this.
That's absolutely untrue. I don't mean to outer anybody here, but I actually learned automation from one of your sackholders. Half of your static use stuff that we use and pretend not to.
The reason why I have a major beef with you guys is that you guys actually downplay other people's achievement accusing them of not being vanilla. I have extensive chats with people in your group flat out saying that the only reason why we beat V25 so fast was because we cheated. When I confronted him about people in your own group using the same tools he proceed to say "I'm not responsible for their actions".
Look at how I defended you guys above and Shiraj proceeds to say dumb stuff like:
Asura.Shiraj said: »
The only players who are going to beat this fight are the actual good players, not the people who think V25s are hard and luck based... They don't stand a chance, even with the addons. At least till another strat comes out.
It took your group something like 20 tries to beat Kalunga the first time. So, was Kalunga hard, or you guys just suck? It really feels like you guys worst nightmare is to be seeing as just another really good group. You can't take the "we were the first to beat, and this is what we used". That would still make you guys outstanding players.
Asura.Bigtymer said: »
There's also no strategic downside of having to tank up against a wall on that encounter; in fact we did tank him up against a wall on our clear. If you think that invalidates our kill, then you're of course entitled to that opinion, but I have to say that you'd be wildly overstating how much of an advantage anchor provides on that encounter.
I don't think anybody is invalidating your accomplishment. It's just that you are pretending that it's something that it's not. It's not a Vanilla kill, because your static is not vanilla. Congrats on beating this fight. Now come get dirty in the swamp with the rest of us. Oink oink.
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Asura.Bigtymer said: »
Everyone draws their own line in the sand in terms of what's unacceptable and what's just QoL.
Asura.Shiraj said: »
We got world's first Crystal Paradise clear but released no video and never got accused of cheating, people were able to replicate the writeup and get the win so what's different to this fight?
You are my guy, so i'll help you out here. The difference is with CP you popped up online with the "we won". Congratulatory response ensued. For this MT you posted online asking for suggestions from people on a forum where 99.9% do not give a ***about Master Trials, have ever nor will ever attempt them, but the .1% who do are going to ask if you've tried A/B/C/D etc. You responded that you did all of those things, then when you won, it raised eyebrows (to Thorny really, remember, 99.9% do not give any fk about this, this is about you guys) as to how you were able to clear it and what changed. Nobody really gave any fack about what you did differently, but since you brought the discussion up, you encouraged the scrutiny by Thorny to ask how you were able to overcome the DPS check you said was not possible initially. So that's where this is coming from.
Not sure who Kadokawa is, but he's hiding behind some made up profile, which should tell you that he's not willing to stand behind his words with who he is and just say the damn thing with his chest. Quote responding to him is just enabling the discussion, idk why Ovalidal is even entertaining his commentary by responding to it, this just prolongs and keeps the "cheater" topic in the loop
edit: new squidward meme by Kadokawa unlocked every time Shiraj posts:
I'm not blaming you fam, I am saying be like Xolla from now on and just pop up one day like "we won"
[+]
It's a little sad that we kind of hold ourselves to a different standard on the NA side of the community. We all expect most things to be used without scrutiny, but I bet if anyone would get recognition from the dev team for this it would be the JP team. It's mostly an afterthought now, but all the crap we use like gearswap (especially modern ones) really elevates us above the average vanilla player. So I do look at their clears with some admiration as they are able to clear some of the hardest stuff with the garbage from the vanilla game. Its more sad SE never care to adjust them until years later like with equipsets.
I bet its like some badge of honor to them too. They are always playing this game with the ugliest looking UI like they are playing on a gameboy.. They love that retro feel of PS2 like games I guess. They rarely ever bother to adjust the graphics.
I bet its like some badge of honor to them too. They are always playing this game with the ugliest looking UI like they are playing on a gameboy.. They love that retro feel of PS2 like games I guess. They rarely ever bother to adjust the graphics.
[+]
JP players know they can't use gearswap etc cuz the powers that be pay attention to them. The dev team would be like "Whoa, people play this in North America?" in comparison
[+]
There's nothing you don't already know, that I can see in the post. Some guessing on dark meva, levels of the mobs etc
A slightly better explanation of health, but if they're correct it means they could see his HP and that means they're dirty cheaters too.
(4% hp regened per minute)
RUN's POV ; when the rdm claimed Cehuetzi, the aura did stay removed from the RUN until the RUN did (gambit or rayke) and started tanking
A slightly better explanation of health, but if they're correct it means they could see his HP and that means they're dirty cheaters too.
(4% hp regened per minute)
RUN's POV ; when the rdm claimed Cehuetzi, the aura did stay removed from the RUN until the RUN did (gambit or rayke) and started tanking
Asura.Eiryl said: »
A slightly better explanation of health, but if they're correct it means they could see his HP and that means they're dirty cheaters too.
(4% hp regened per minute)
(4% hp regened per minute)
The post says they estimate it at 4% per minute but are not entirely sure.
Draylo said: »
but I bet if anyone would get recognition from the dev team for this it would be the JP team
They aren't getting any recognition for this clear. Last time there was recognition for hard content, it was Incusion 135, the clearing group lost their KI, they complained on the OF, and SE said "Velkks are mean so they just take your upgraded KI, but congrats."
Draylo said: »
It's a little sad that we kind of hold ourselves to a different standard on the NA side of the community. We all expect most things to be used without scrutiny, but I bet if anyone would get recognition from the dev team for this it would be the JP team. It's mostly an afterthought now, but all the crap we use like gearswap (especially modern ones) really elevates us above the average vanilla player. So I do look at their clears with some admiration as they are able to clear some of the hardest stuff with the garbage from the vanilla game. Its more sad SE never care to adjust them until years later like with equipsets.
I bet its like some badge of honor to them too. They are always playing this game with the ugliest looking UI like they are playing on a gameboy.. They love that retro feel of PS2 like games I guess. They rarely ever bother to adjust the graphics.
I bet its like some badge of honor to them too. They are always playing this game with the ugliest looking UI like they are playing on a gameboy.. They love that retro feel of PS2 like games I guess. They rarely ever bother to adjust the graphics.
I was with you for the first half but then you had to go dump on the game you "love." These statements sound a lot like the things you criticize PS players, to me.
The vanilla game is garbage, the UI is trash, and the graphics look like a Gameboy. Sounds like you don't really like ffxi and pretty st4ongly dislike it. It's neat that you still love your modded version of it though, I guess.
I, for one, don't think base ffxi looks ugly or has any UI problems. In fact, the UI is a lot cleaner than the abominations that most players are using these days. The mechanics and macros are fine the way they are. I'm sure they could be better (i wouldn't hate a revamp to reduce the delay between equipsets) but they're not garbage or, as many other "fans" of ffxi say, unplayable. It's a very good game that doesn't need to be modded to hell and back to be played.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
I, for one, don't think base ffxi looks ugly or has any UI problems.
I'm sorry but you are not a bigger fan than me for this game. The base game with 0 adjustments looks blurry and bad. It makes me cringe to see videos in such horrible quality when this game is capable of beautiful graphics. It doesn't take much aside from editing the files. The aesthetic of the game is beautiful but it's still a ps2 game and needs adjustments to be crisp. As a real fan you can also note it's shortcomings.
Things like being completely trapped in an animation without ja0, is not "perfect". All the icons looking the same and having to look at each buff to see what you got is silly. The reason ppl complained about these things is why they added times to buffs and other optional UI changes. Don't be a boomer!
Things like being completely trapped in an animation without ja0, is not "perfect". All the icons looking the same and having to look at each buff to see what you got is silly. The reason ppl complained about these things is why they added times to buffs and other optional UI changes. Don't be a boomer!
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Draylo said: »
but I bet if anyone would get recognition from the dev team for this it would be the JP team
They aren't getting any recognition for this clear. Last time there was recognition for hard content, it was Incusion 135, the clearing group lost their KI, they complained on the OF, and SE said "Velkks are mean so they just take your upgraded KI, but congrats."
That's why I said if, I'm sure they don't care either way but surely someone saw it. You never know, they watch the JP side of things a lot more closely.
Shichishito said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
I, for one, don't think base ffxi looks ugly or has any UI problems.
Ok sure, maybe "no UI problems" is taking it a bit too far. The problems with the UI are trivial to deal with if you use your brain and are actively playing the game.
Berserk comes before warcry. Utsusemi shows shadows up to 4, beyond that in the extremely rare case that you need to know if it's 5 or 6 for some reason, you count. It's called playing a video game. Sometimes you have to use your brain to accomplish a task, and deduce things yourself instead of having someone write you a program to reduce the mental load so it's not so hard for you.
RE: Draylo clearly we're not going to agree here but for the record, I never said I was a bigger fan of ffxi than you; that's a ridiculous, completely immeasurable nonsense claim. What i said was that criticism to the point of actively changing the game is much more like the behavior of PS ghouls than it is fans.
In 99% of situations there's absolutely no reason to need to look at your buff bar with ++ to see what buffs you have or what buffs you got. There's a chat log showing all the buffs as you get them and also as they wear off. The buffs are always in the exact same order, with no relevant exceptions. The only things I can think of are songs/rolls, but with a BRD who knows what they're doing that's also in the 1% or less of the time.
I guess if you get used to your pacifier it becomes difficult to imagine life without it though. Trust me, if you know how to play the game and have a brain, it's not so scary.
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