Oathsworn Blade Master Trial - Cleared

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Oathsworn Blade Master Trial - Cleared
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 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2025-03-20 17:22:18
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Bambusal said: »
Here is the literal translation in case it helps:
"When Stymie Sleep lands, Cehuetzi's Aura will temporarily act only on the Red Mage due to the enmity it has generated." (スタイミースリプルが入るとセフエジのスフィアがヘイトを入れた一時的に赤だけに作用するようになります。)
But what I don't understand is when the Lion popped for us, the aura was already out affecting anyone inrange before anyone established enmity on it, that's the confusing part. The only time we had anything happen like that was when we dropped party.

Apologies about the size, snipping tool'd them and didn't resize. But yeah you can see the lion is unclaimed but the aura is still up which is why I'm so confused how that happened.
I just went back into a random vod to nab these screenshots:

 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2025-03-20 17:28:27
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It says after the rdm claims it, the aura temporarily drops from the run

so... I don't see the confusion

You don't get to see the run's pov though
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By Bambusal 2025-03-20 17:32:06
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Asura.Shiraj said: »
Bambusal said: »
Here is the literal translation in case it helps:
"When Stymie Sleep lands, Cehuetzi's Aura will temporarily act only on the Red Mage due to the enmity it has generated." (スタイミースリプルが入るとセフエジのスフィアがヘイトを入れた一時的に赤だけに作用するようになります。)
But what I don't understand is when the Lion popped for us, the aura was already out affecting anyone inrange before anyone established enmity on it, that's the confusing part. The only time we had anything happen like that was when we dropped party.

Apologies about the size, snipping tool'd them and didn't resize. But yeah you can see the lion is unclaimed but the aura is still up which is why I'm so confused how that happened.
I just went back into a random vod to nab these screenshots:


I just checked the video again and there is nothing else that gives a hint. The only thing I can see is that the RDM gets close, I assume to be inside the aura. Maybe that's it?
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2025-03-20 17:32:40
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Hmm ok, I misread/misunderstood that part tbh. The only thing I remember is that aura never going away from me ty for clearing up
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2025-03-20 17:37:04
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You also see (hear) the geo casting paralyna on the RUN

Xolla having animations off makes it much harder to notice.
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By Bambusal 2025-03-20 17:43:47
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Just in case, I went back and translated more literally the entire part related to the Lion:
"In Cehuetzi's case, once he is in position, we put him to sleep with Stymie-Sleep. During this time, the Rune Fencer will not get hate on Cehuetzi. When Stymie-Sleep lands, Cehuetzi's Aura will temporarily act only on the Red Mage due to the enmity it has generated. Thanks to this, it becomes possible for the Rune Fencer to use Rayke with 3 dark runes at the beginning of the fight without getting paralyzed. Once Rayke has landed, the Corsairs start doing damage with Leaden Salute. Without Rayke, Cehuetzi takes half damage from Leaden. From here on out, we will stay at range. "
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By Bambusal 2025-03-20 17:58:28
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Ovalidal said: »
So, translating the captions, it sounds like Xolla says they messed up a gimmick which is why August used Null Field. It sounds like you can avoid Null Field altogether.

Whatever "state" the gimmick put him in, it kept him from summoning naakuals, delaying the 99% dt and regen.

Again, this info is from our friend G-Translate, so who knows.

Correct. At 2:45 in the video, he says they messed up at the beginning of the fight and had to deal with Null Field.
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 Asura.Dexprozius
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By Asura.Dexprozius 2025-03-20 18:08:13
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How many attempts do they not show where they fail to 'lock' Augusts TP moves? In exchange for doing Teodor the 'right' way by not having to zombie him, they seem to exploit Augusts AI in some way. We need more understanding on how these conditions are met, as from Shiraj's explanation in testing, they found it wasnt JUST distance from August right? Otherwise it's just Aita on steroids for the 1st leg.

Grats to them for going it their own way and solving it differently. I just wish it was more clear what was being done and how they arrived there. Atleast w/ BigT/Shiraj's team theres an extensive write up and what not. With this we're meant to analyze the vid and guess
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2025-03-20 19:13:12
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Asura.Dexprozius said: »
I just wish it was more clear what was being done and how they arrived there. Atleast w/ BigT/Shiraj's team theres an extensive write up and what not. With this we're meant to analyze the vid and guess

I mean, the big difference is the writeup is in English for us native speakers :), and you can communicate freely with the victors to get more information if something is unclear (but no video to analyze). This video is fully in japanese, and we have no connection to Xolla's circle. I'm sure if someone could communicate with them it would be clearer what they did. Maybe they have a discussion board somewhere outlining everything they did, we just can't understand it (yet)
 Asura.Dexprozius
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By Asura.Dexprozius 2025-03-20 19:27:12
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Dexprozius said: »
I just wish it was more clear what was being done and how they arrived there. Atleast w/ BigT/Shiraj's team theres an extensive write up and what not. With this we're meant to analyze the vid and guess

I mean, the big difference is the writeup is in English for us native speakers :), and you can communicate freely with the victors to get more information if something is unclear (but no video to analyze). This video is fully in japanese, and we have no connection to Xolla's circle. I'm sure if someone could communicate with them it would be clearer what they did. Maybe they have a discussion board somewhere outlining everything they did, we just can't understand it (yet)

Well by all accounts, that's by design. Xolla intentionally doesnt release as much info as possible, as least with EN speakers who've expressed the desire to
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By Kadokawa 2025-03-21 06:13:38
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Congrats for the First Authentic Clear without any cheating/exploits.
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By Ovalidal 2025-03-21 07:01:44
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I'll re-ask the question since you didn't elaborate before. What do you consider cheating?

As far as this being a legitimate clear, of course it's a legitimate clear. But, Xolla's group isn't vanilla, and what they did with August in the first phase seems very much like an exploit. I'm not saying it is an exploit, just saying if you're calling anything in the first clear an exploit, this first phase may also fit the bill.
 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2025-03-21 07:05:15
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We don't really know what the English group used, because despite telling us they use VOD to review their gameplay, they weren't willing to publish a video of their clear.

That alone is enough to suspect they probably used something they wouldn't be proud of. Whether or not Xolla's group is vanilla, they showed the entire clear start to finish and they're not doing anything particularly suspect.

I wouldn't say that kiting in a way such that August can't reach tank to use his moves is exploiting either; it's a strategy that's been used in other fights and it's using game mechanics.
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By RadialArcana 2025-03-21 07:20:35
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Quote:
Authentic Clear

I don't think it's fair to devalue the accomplishment the first group achieved with talk like that, that's not what the thread is about. Western and JP players have different values as to where the line is, and just leave it at that.

A thread like this should not become negative, if it goes down there people will stop sharing altogether.
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By Ovalidal 2025-03-21 07:22:16
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Shiva.Thorny said: »
We don't really know what the English group used, because despite telling us they use VOD to review their gameplay, they weren't willing to publish a video of their clear.

That alone is enough to suspect they probably used something they wouldn't be proud of. Whether or not Xolla's group is vanilla, they showed the entire clear start to finish and they're not doing anything particularly suspect.

I'm not saying the first group is above suspicion, anyone is free to have their own standard when it comes to gameplay integrity.

Kadokawa has been less than agnostic in saying that the first clear wasn't legitimate. Again, he's perfectly free to hold that opinion, there's nothing wrong with that. But the last time some asked about his standard, everything he provided was irrelevant to the clear.
 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2025-03-21 07:27:18
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Ovalidal said: »
everything he provided was irrelevant to the clear.

The issue is that without a video, we don't know anything besides 'take our word for it'. Shiraj already downplayed the use of Anchor, but they post screenshots tanking near the middle without geo-gravity, so it's pretty clear their tank was using it if not others. Xolla's tank is visibly getting knocked around, no anchor.

We know the damage threshold is absurdly high for their strategy and it's commonplace for NA to use automatic RA tools to increase the output of ranged and hover shot past what vanilla client can do. We also know that JA0Wait increases the maximum output of a RNG using hover shot substantially. Xolla is manually hitting his macro every ranged and we can see nobody is using JA0Wait.

We know they recorded their runs. We know they aren't afraid of publicity, they did all of your youtube stuff and shared their progress as well as posting as soon as they cleared. A reasonable person can conclude that they probably did use some of these grey area tools or we would've seen the video. I'm not saying it invalidates all of their work, but Xolla has proven they did it legitimately, and I think that counts for something.

That's without even getting into the arguments actual purists would have about gearswap and other advantages that we've made so ubiquitous we accept at face value.
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By Ovalidal 2025-03-21 07:29:01
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RadialArcana said: »
Quote:
Authentic Clear

I don't think it's fair to devalue the accomplishment the first group achieved with talk like that, that's not what the thread is about. Western and JP players have different values as to where the line is, and just leave it at that.

A thread like this should not become negative, if it goes down there people will stop sharing altogether.

I'll repost this so it's in 2 places, and because Radical is exactly right. I've been interviewing plenty of players with either 1st or early clears on the older master trials. The #1 reason they don't care to share info on here anymore is because there are a few people here who care way more about jumping on every misstep these players have then they do about discussing ideas / celebrating achievements.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2025-03-21 07:31:34
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Sounds like they need thicker skin if they're saddened by what meanies say on ah.com

That said, I wouldn't be stupid enough to post my vods of me cheating to clear this either. It's obvious they used anchor at a minimum, and posting evidence of tos breaking is dumb as ***.
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 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2025-03-21 07:39:05
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
That said, I wouldn't be stupid enough to post my vods of me cheating to clear this either. It's obvious they used anchor at a minimum, and posting evidence of tos breaking is dumb as ***.

That's exactly the point. I would say they probably used more than Anchor, since every screenshot they've posted has been extremely clipped. Just this page, Shiraj mentioned going back through a vod and he clipped out just his buffs and cehuetzi's hp bar into 2 seperate pictures.
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By RadialArcana 2025-03-21 07:39:32
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XI has too much of a "tear people down" mindset, this is not helpful to the game or the community. We all know the arguments, this isn't necessary here. Everything doesn't need to be negative.
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By Ovalidal 2025-03-21 07:53:29
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Sounds like they need thicker skin if they're saddened by what meanies say on ah.com

I usually wouldn't disagree with you, the Internet is a harsh place, and thick skin is a good thing to have in general. But the fact that, it was the "meanies" who stayed on AH, and not the top FFXI players has unfortunately made this a much less interesting place. After all, "meanies" are a dime a dozen, but top players don't exactly grow on trees.
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 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2025-03-21 10:34:51
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Ovalidal said: »
But the last time some asked about his standard, everything he provided was irrelevant to the clear.

Was that in a different thread? In this thread the only thing I see him posting specifics about is:

Kadokawa said: »
Some of them got banned and bought new character, some cheats like advanced Lua, speed hackig and knows all location of nm and exits in sortie. SE ban tako but don't ban anchor, ja0 advanced Lua, or sortiebuddy users.

And umm...I'd have to say that, at least for me, Anchor, Ja0, and "advanced lua" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean (RNG helper?), are definitely not "irrelevant to the clear".

I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to claim that the first clear with video evidence is the first legitimate clear. I wouldn't personally make that statement because it's unnecessarily inflammatory and I don't give a ***who is the world first of anything in FFXI.

Considering the statement on the merits though...I don't think there are too many other video game competitions where "trust me bro" is the standard for a legitimate clear, especially in climates where there are shitloads of cheats readily available and commonly used.

Inb4 someone puts words in my mouth and does a psycho-analysis on this post to determine how what I really meant was the opposite of all the words I wrote.
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By Ovalidal 2025-03-21 11:34:35
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This is more of a subjective point, but when asking what makes a clear “invalid", I think explaining a bit more than “they’ve cheated before in Sortie" would be a bit more helpful. A great example of this is your explanation, actually.

Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »

I'd have to say that, at least for me, Anchor, Ja0, and "advanced lua" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean (RNG helper?), are definitely not "irrelevant to the clear".

I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to claim that the first clear with video evidence is the first legitimate clear. I wouldn't personally make that statement because it's unnecessarily inflammatory and I don't give a ***who is the world first of anything in FFXI.

Considering the statement on the merits though...I don't think there are too many other video game competitions where "trust me bro" is the standard for a legitimate clear, especially in climates where there are shitloads of cheats readily available and commonly used.

Inb4 someone puts words in my mouth and does a psycho-analysis on this post to determine how what I really meant was the opposite of all the words I wrote.

Like I've mentioned, this is a great (and even productive) standard you ask any group to adhere to, including the first group. I may disagree with certain aspects, and that's okay. But when someone says something along the lines of:
Quote:
Congrats for the First Authentic Clear without any cheating/exploits.

this does not add to, or further any discussion. I also think it's fair to ask for a bit more clarification on what about this specific clear this person takes issue with.
 Fenrir.Richybear
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By Fenrir.Richybear 2025-03-21 11:50:10
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
words.

I can't believe you said Vize can solo this
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2025-03-21 11:55:28
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Fenrir.Richybear said: »
Vize

I hope this man is doing well. I miss the Caladbolg Cyclops around these parts.
 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2025-03-21 12:00:39
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I think the bigger takeaway is that FFXI has a more casual environment and people don't typically question things like this. If you look at world first races on WoW or FFXIV, a clear that wasn't streamed or recorded gets basically no recognition now because everyone assumes they cheated. The bar they use to decide someone was cheating is much lower, too.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/436dce7bd078c914009957f2221c13e6a5cb497d
When a guild in FFXIV used a plugin to zoom out further than vanilla client allows to see mechanics better, they were all made to drop their reward weapon and Yoshida outright posted that he doesn't recognize them as world first.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2025-03-21 12:20:15
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Shiva.Thorny said: »
a clear that wasn't streamed or recorded gets basically no recognition now because everyone assumes they cheated.

It's like that even with relatively smaller titles. I.e. Pokemon Go Battle League has a seasonal leaderboard with all of the top players rushing to hit Legend Rank. Nearly all of them publicly stream their progress, and they question anyone's leaderboard position who doesn't stream.

At this point in any competitive gaming setting (and even outside of video games), there is virtually no scenario anymore where you can simply tell someone you did something and not have it be scrutinized without posting visual proof (i.e. video evidence), and even then, people are skeptical until it's thoroughly reviewed by peers of the community. I don't think FFXIAH forums are any more critical than really any other area
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By Ovalidal 2025-03-21 12:44:57
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Shiva.Thorny said: »
I think the bigger takeaway is that FFXI has a more casual environment and people don't typically question things like this. If you look at world first races on WoW or FFXIV, a clear that wasn't streamed or recorded gets basically no recognition now because everyone assumes they cheated. The bar they use to decide someone was cheating is much lower, too.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/436dce7bd078c914009957f2221c13e6a5cb497d
When a guild in FFXIV used a plugin to zoom out further than vanilla client allows to see mechanics better, they were all made to drop their reward weapon and Yoshida outright posted that he doesn't recognize them as world first.

FFXIV is a bad example for this. Many top players still credit the actual world first groups, despite being shunned by SE or the race orgs, regardless of tool use. In fact, that conversation is more contentious in FFXIV than most realize. Yoshida says that using calculators is a no-no, and the main orgs overseeing the Race says anything against ToS is an automatic DQ from the competition. Yet, literally, every group credited by both SE and the race orgs use ACT, a blatant break of the ToS. You can see their parses on FF logs.

As much as I love the FFXIV race scene, it's a bit of a catastrophe. It's also odd that you're so particular about this topic, Thorny. I think your clear of Black and White is pure awesome, but you aren't exactly above suspicion.
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 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2025-03-21 13:14:33
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Ovalidal said: »
It's also odd that you're so particular about this topic, Thorny. I think your clear of Black and White is pure awesome, but you aren't exactly above suspicion.

I shouldn't be above suspicion. I had a video, and I didn't post it. I used an autora that was far and away better than anything anyone else had at the time; I also admitted it in my own thread along with the reasoning.

I don't remember what else I used or how people would have felt about it. I'm not going to say I deserve any credit for a first for that, and I haven't posted any of my other clears that were first or close because I know that others aren't on equal footing with a 6boxed automation group.
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 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2025-03-21 18:31:59
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Ovalidal said: »
As much as I love the FFXIV race scene, it's a bit of a catastrophe. It's also odd that you're so particular about this topic, Thorny. I think your clear of Black and White is pure awesome, but you aren't exactly above suspicion.

Whataboutism isn't a very effective defense to an accusation, TBH.

Thorny is obviously a massive cheater, he's said in at least 100 threads that he uses bots heavily.

The identity of people who are speaking up doesn't change anything about the burden of proof though, so I don't really see the point in bringing this up except randomly throwing ***at the wall to see if it sticks.

Ovalidal said: »
I may disagree with certain aspects, and that's okay.

OK sure, you "may" disagree. Do you disagree? Which of the things I listed do you consider OK for a "legitimate" world first clear? What makes you think those things are OK? What is your standard for a legitimate clear? Does it happen to be the way that your friends play?

I'm not involved in the "world first" discussion, I don't care if these guys have "the title" or want to claim that their win was legitimate. Go for it. But if YOU (plural) care about it, and want to assign that title to a specific group, you should probably be willing to have their record scrutinized and not spend the entire thread shutting down criticism and asking for praise instead. It is, as the kids would say, real sus.

Not to put too fine a point on it but...if the programs in question really are "irrelevant to the clear" then...why not turn them off for attempts? Seems like a pretty easy way to ensure that nobody attributes your win to the programs, makes your clear video cleaner and easier to provide to the public, and costs you nothing. The logic doesn't seem internally consistent.
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