New Games Suck... Or Is It Just Me?

Yeah you have a very different view, I believe most people do not regard the publisher or any external entity outside of the author/artist team as part of the "creative" design behind a product. whether the stance that those external parties are not part of the creative design is correct or not can be up for debate.

But if they are asking a creative team to remove elements or add elements with out regard for the product and only in the goal of crossing of line items on an arbitrary list, this is where the concerns around "forced" inclusion and "censorship" that Nynja and Thorny have been talking to you about stems from.

You could rightfully push back that many of those decisions are from creatives, after all most of the outrage around these issues come after posts from "lead designers" making aggressive statements backing their decisions.

At any rate, it seems clear to me now that this is just a disagreement about who is on the first, second or third party to the creation of the product.

Are we going down the translation localization activism rabbithole now?

Not really, I would just argue Afania lives in an interesting land of sunshine and rainbows, where random executive A actually knows the product they are making and not just shouting random buzz words to be added or removed.

(my CEO made a huge blunder just the other day during an AEM, where he said we were not in a market that is our primary market...)

Also your opinion on "censorship" is weird, lol.

To me censorship isn't inherently anti-LGBTQ, to me censorship means telling people to shut up with their ideology.

Say if my ideology is anti-LGBTQ, so I want to make a game that attack LGBTQ people. Then my game is banned in California because SJW say this is homophobic. This is still censorship.

Censorship isn't inherently tied to one ideology, it's the act of telling people not to express ideology.

Of course a publisher who said "no LGBTQ" in the creation process isn't censorship. They are the one who paid the mangaka and own the IP. They are allowed to insert whatever ideology they like.

There is a serious problem with you if you constantly need to make conditionals, circunstances and exceptions just to justify your flawled values.

Keep bending values, and you gonna end up bending yourself in the end

This thread is now about Smurfs and Single Man Under Red Flag. Gargamel is an evil capitalist

No, I don't think every CEO is perfect but I don't think it matters.

I don't care if a CEO knows product or not. The fact that the company own the IP means they are allowed to do anything they want. Whether the result is bad or good does not matter in this discussion.

I agree that bad products should not be bought as well, I believe we should have consensus on this matter.

Afaik editor absolutely has great power on final creativity input in manga. A lot of mangaka submitted their idea and it got rejected or changed by the editor.

Also most manga publisher has their preferred style and theme. Mangaka can't create whatever they want, they still need to follow publisher's guideline.

I think it's reasonable to say publisher is part of creative process. Very big part, in fact.

**removed because it's unhealthy to engage Afania. **

You aren't any healthier if you don't have a point except personal attacks.

Although I had disagreement with Thorny and Niflheim in this discussion, at least I recognize they both made logical points and I don't entirely disagree with all of them, just minor disagreement on some details.

Even their posts are healthier because it's real discussion.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2658450/LOLLIPOP_CHAINSAW_RePOP/

https://www.thegamer.com/trust-video-game-reviewers/

lol

kinda related to the censorship topic

Smurfs are blue. This is blatant pandering to the blueberry lobby and must not be tolerated.

OBLUETERATE THE BLUEBERRY LOBBY!!!!

Can't get rid of them, they're wearing Adaberks and they're saying the colour is actually Smurple

Ok just to make sure I understand you correctly.


Publishers should have creative control, and any changes they make should not be viewed as "negatively altering" the creative work, but simply part of "the creative process".

Licensors should have no creative control, and any changes they make are "negatively altering" the creative work and are not part of "the creative process".


You used an example of english dubbers and how they are "bad" for changing the works to fit some statement they wanted to make.

If those same licensors become publishers on future products and make the same types of changes but those changes happen earlier and as part of "the creative process" that is perfectly ok? is that a correct understanding of your stance?

Negative is a strong word. I only said I am not a fan because it's not original, doesn't mean it's negative.

If you like English dub, it's your choice. I only view it as an alternate version that isn't the original, and I prefer original.

I would say the scripts written by localization team is still creativity technically, just alternate version of creative work that doesn't represent the original team's vision.

What's so unclear about this?


It depends on what kind of involvement they did in the creative process. Can you give me an example of specific case in your mind?

If the publisher is indeed involved in the creative process I fail to see why they aren't part of creative team.

Honestly I feel we have fundamental different understanding on what creative process really is. And I have no idea where the difference came from.

Can you tell me how would you imagine a creative work is really like? Otherwise it's hard for me to figure out why our perspective on creative process is so different.


Example 1: Say if you are an artist working for a client and their project, the client told you one character should be black, so you made the character black. Is this client's idea part of creative process to you? Even though they are the idea person, not the one who draw the character.


Example 2: If you are a producer who send your scripts to an external script consultant, the consultant suggested you change character A, B and C. You only changed A and B but not C. The movie flopped. Who is responsible for this decision?


Example 3: As far as localization goes, say if you are a producer who finally finished a script and you send them to external localization team, then the team made some major story changes for different region culture based on their understanding of the culture. Would you go out and say that the idea of change is your own creativity?

I have very clear pov on questions in example 1,2 and 3. But I feel you have different opinion. That's why I asked.

they get a copy of the working script, just like some random exec or manager might, and can have the authority to make demands regarding removals and additions of story elements as they see fit. The group who provided the working script must incorporate the requested changes.

For a better example, we can use the fairly infamous "localization" of the episode 12 of Miss Kobayashi's dragon maid, the seen where Tohru's character states "what's with the outfit" and Lucoa responds "everyone was always saying something to me, so I tried toning it down"

On the review of the script the "publisher" see these lines and demands they be changed to reference "pesky patriarchal societal demands" that plague women in this day and age

If you need more examples just look up all wacky english dub "localization", and pretend they were happening as a demand from a publisher at a script review.


If you would like you can even pretend these people actually care about the creative integrity of the story or you can pretend these people only care about spreading/normalizing their world view or any other option go wild.

Well yeah, but that's how it's often like to work in creative industry though. See the example 1 in my last post.

The "people in power", let it be producer or client or whoever has money, they ARE the one with ideas and paid to make an idea come true. So why they aren't part of creative process?


Localization is technically "creative work" too, it's rewriting scripts using writing skills.

so you can technically say rewritten localized script is still "creative work", and I wouldn't deny such statement. I just wouldn't view "rewritten work(localized script)" the same as "original work" because they are different entity. If I can choose I will pick original work to consume.




I feel you are still discussing this issue with a political lens, that's why their intention on starting a project is so important to you.

Not to me though.

I also have to point out rl working is often not this black and white. I've tell my client their ideas are aweful plenty of times, and made suggestions on changes. Then they either listen or they don't, it depends on them. But they usually listen to me.

You sound like people working for clients or managers have absolutely no way to influence the final result because they have no power, this is not always true, it's case by case.

And I thought it is a reasonable take.

No its not
They have one *** job and that is to translate what is written from one language to another while retaining the original intent as best as possible.

I cant wait for AI to put these translator activists out of a job. This is probably one of the few instances I approve of AI takeover.

inb4:

And thats the beauty of it, you spoony bard! These things make for memorable quotes that will stand the test of time and if some people dont like it, I, Nynja, will knock you all down!

Brazillian Chihuahua waiting to be kicked...

What separates them out is the Hero's Journey. As long as the protagonist, male or female, is likeable and goes through that process, then the story will at least be decent. That process involves admitting weakness, imperfections and faults, then working hard (training montage etc..) to overcome those weakness's and faults to eventually attain the goal. The process is humbling and address's the fact that we are all flawed creatures.

Most ... "woke" crap today tries to do the heroes journey but skip out on the admission of weakness and imperfection. If the character is likable enough then the audience might enjoy it anyway, otherwise it's just not fun.

today i played RDR2 for 40 minutes i felt it was crap move here go there walk with this guy on a horse for 15 mins than shoot a deer it was so F*** boring

Anyway who has the marvel collection wana play sometime online!?

I've been afraid to start it despite all the amazing reviews people give it because all the gameplay footage I see is just slowmo walking on a horse lol

Thunderjat is a bad parameter for game quality.

He like WoW and FF14, so take his opinion with a ton of salt

i like wow classic! they are not the same, Retail wow is a bad mmo
I dont like 14 gameplay just the story

You dont like cats u like dogs (_(_===============D head!
Cats are better
Anyway who has the marvel collection to play some time!?

Literally any opinion is hereby invalidated