The Botulus is 100% not 50% damage from behind, or 50% WS damage from behind or anything of the sort. I'm sure you stick with a strategy doing this that is just picking up the real method along the way, but I can say with certainty that there is more to it. We always do about 75% of the damage from behind. Have done this both melee and mage style. Turning him mid-fight is the only thing that we have noticed that happens every last time he doesn't grant the chest. We though it was hold enmity for X amount of time, but that seems to be wrong now also. There has only been one time that we turned him and he still gave us the chest after his hp was below 75% and I have no idea what we did.
edit: I'll correct myself. It could be something of the sort. But it is not as simple as those two things.
Ixion Lore And Proc Attempts
Ixion Lore and Proc Attempts
Uhh I think I may have disproved that.. *edit: that being 50% from the back) or at least opened it up to further scrutiny. I did not do 50% from the back.. on purpose.
I'll go in in about 20 minutes to just play with the pony, if anyone has any suggestions for me to try. (Ignoring what get's said that has already been ruled out).
As far as i can tell, August never lost hate. Im certain this is because all my stuff from behind was magic and then i flubbed my first 3 step leaden, only doing enough to spike hate on the killing blow.
I will add that when I tried to isolate the 50% from behind a few days ago while eliminating all the other ideas... I did not eliminate some kind of "dont lose hate" from that. We had an alt 30 yalms away that didn't tag anything. I did 50%+ from the back then came from the front and killed him with darkness sc dmg. I had an actual RUN holding it. Hate was not transferred.
Just so I'm clear.. here's why I care about botulus lol. If he's not 50% dmg related, the chance of the horse being 50% dmg plummets imo. And if its merely "only one person atop the hate list", not sure the inverse of that is a thing. Everyone gets atop the hate list? Like one after the other? Or I guess maybe if it was "someone holds hate for X ammount of time" horse would possibly be "no one can havehate for x amount of time" like voke it back n forth or have a 2 DDs alternate WS and try ping pong it back n forth. Mage style would struggle with that.
And if none of the above is true, then it increases the probability that the horse could literally be anything. If 50% dmg isn't a thing and inverse relationships aren't a thing, then where do you go from there?
And if none of the above is true, then it increases the probability that the horse could literally be anything. If 50% dmg isn't a thing and inverse relationships aren't a thing, then where do you go from there?
[+]
Still trying stuff, no chest yet but found something. Water elemental magic, including Distract causes his charged horn / aura.
Almost out of time, but trying 50% of damage with aura up and not sure if I'm quite hitting it
Not gonna be able to test this one tonight as I only have Shantotto to use water and I'm down to 3 minutes. I think this might be it though, RDM enwater and go to town.
No chest and it's not just limited to water, but I think water procs it the most often. He puts up his aura as an occasionaly reaction to a spell cast on him. I noticed this because I tried to do magic bursts with trust on MNK, and when I had shantotto up he was putting up the aura like crazy. I noticed it mostly on water casts, but also on aero twice and fire once.
I'll test tomorrow, but I think Ixion chest may be: have a rdm spamming single spell nukes, and melees hold tp for aura > WS once and then wait for next aura (since TP move to drop it can be immediately after he puts it up)
edit: no chest because I'm sure I didn't get 50% of my damage with aura up, was low on time and had to kill / ended with 20 seconds remaining.
I'll test tomorrow, but I think Ixion chest may be: have a rdm spamming single spell nukes, and melees hold tp for aura > WS once and then wait for next aura (since TP move to drop it can be immediately after he puts it up)
edit: no chest because I'm sure I didn't get 50% of my damage with aura up, was low on time and had to kill / ended with 20 seconds remaining.
Killed Ixion by using Leaden only when its aura was up (darksday, fought on the right side until tank died). Aura came up randomly, casting Suiton didn't trigger it at all. No chest.
Cleared all elementals around the area where it died, also nothing. After killing it I zoned out and came back a few times and nothing.
Cleared all elementals around the area where it died, also nothing. After killing it I zoned out and came back a few times and nothing.
KujahFoxfire said: »
If you are doing skillchains or magic bursts for damage you wont get it, these are directionless damage sources. My group has tested and proven it is 50% rear damage. We do leaden only on rear til hes under 50%, followed by leaden viper leaden which always pulls hate and sits him about 1% then a leaden or even auto attacks kill and we get chest every time, even if hes still facing me at this point.
I thought the same but I literally just did less than 50% from the back and got box. I should have failed but I didn't. But honestly that's the true test. Its not enough to just get it 100% if you arent disproving other possibilities. The enmity thing is 100% on the table imo. That or its not 50%, it's less. or the 50% is directionless. Those are the choices available to me rn.
If its an emnity mech, i'll try run a test tomorrow. I'm gonna have a RUN hold it and I'm going to leaden its face till its dead. That should be 100% fail rate. But if it succeeds, which tbh it might, it's either directionless or its some kind of hate mech. I think it's gonna be some kind of timed emnity if its not directional 50%. You can lose hate late in the fight but still get box. Early in the fight, not so much.
If I do this tomorrow and I get the result I'm thinking I might get, first thing I'm gonna do is hit up the horse and ping pong back n forth till it dead. melees alternating non skillchaining WS would do this easily. Or a tank just letting a COR or BRD have hate then immediately yanking back would work on mage style.
We've got dullahans that immediately destroy fresh targets. We've got mechs that can time you looking at a bitzer without moving. The pieces are all there. And the fact botulus can charm adds a wrinkle to any kind of hate mech.
The 50% stuff we've thrown at ixion thus far has yielded nothing. It's time to start expanding the thought process. And if botulus is hate based or directionless, it changes my entire approach.
The only way you can prove to me at this point that its directional is to hit that req while forcing an emnity check failure at the same time. Bc I just did the opposite of that. Admittedly I wasnt trying not to pull hate but I didnt when purposefully trying to fail the back dmg req.
tbh im not sure how you'd force fail emnity while doing allt he dmg from the back. Like let the back ppl pull hate and immediately yank it back with flash/foil etc while not doing much dmg to it. Then let the back dmg person take it right back. Otherwise the emnity thing remains on the table.
tbh im not sure how you'd force fail emnity while doing allt he dmg from the back. Like let the back ppl pull hate and immediately yank it back with flash/foil etc while not doing much dmg to it. Then let the back dmg person take it right back. Otherwise the emnity thing remains on the table.
KujahFoxfire said: »
I have pulled hate several times myself as the cor, all after 50% rear damage, and gotten the chest every time. I did 50% rear -> chained it after, its turned to face me, and died to an auto attack facing me, dropping chest.
Did the main person have hate for 30 seconds at any point? or you? Im serious. I literally got the box while force failing 50% back dmg. My entire intention was to fail it to check whether the threshold was actually 50% or if people were just assuming it was.
So its either not 50%. Not specific direction. Or its a timed hate mech. Those are my only choices.
I dont think its merely "never lose hate" like someone other than the tank aggroing or pulling would be auto fail. But if you're doing 50% from the back, that means someone has its attention for an extended period of time. Which is actually what me and the other guy are leaning to now.
Tonights run we;
Pulled Ixion to the porter to the zone boss and killed next to it.
Both DDs lockstyled full empy sets full-time. Killing blow person had full empy lockstyle on.
No box.
Pulled Ixion to the porter to the zone boss and killed next to it.
Both DDs lockstyled full empy sets full-time. Killing blow person had full empy lockstyle on.
No box.
[+]
I dont expect a muffin farming group to intentionally try to fail a chest ofc lol. But heres the situation. I have a main, 2 alts. Im not running sortie 3x a day. so one of my chars always has a KI to burn. Like some others, im literally going in with the sole purpose of nailing these down.
I was int he 50% behind dmg camp like yesterday lol. I even posted in here that I had seen it for myself. But there are other possibilities that remain. Because I literally just forced failed it and didnt fail. I intentionally tried to fail.
Think of it this way.... if i killed the porxie with leaden and got the red box every time, I can allow myself to think that's whats doing it. Works every time. Must be leaden. I have no idea who whoever figured out it was the blue box managed to figure that out, but they did.
There's two of us saying that not doing 50% behind is succeeding when it should fail. So I have 3 options to me left and I'll see what comes of it.
I was int he 50% behind dmg camp like yesterday lol. I even posted in here that I had seen it for myself. But there are other possibilities that remain. Because I literally just forced failed it and didnt fail. I intentionally tried to fail.
Think of it this way.... if i killed the porxie with leaden and got the red box every time, I can allow myself to think that's whats doing it. Works every time. Must be leaden. I have no idea who whoever figured out it was the blue box managed to figure that out, but they did.
There's two of us saying that not doing 50% behind is succeeding when it should fail. So I have 3 options to me left and I'll see what comes of it.
I ran with Zixxer's group last night and I inadvertently contributed to a legit botulus chest fail. I dont run with them normally so idk their strats. The SAM was gonna stun lock it and get hate but got amnesiaed immediately. So I see the WAR voke and spin the mob around and im like OK i know what to do here lol. I was still in savage blade mode from doing the previous boss so I savaged.... and connected frag on something pulled hate pretty damn early. and took a huge chunk of its life... so ppl are freaking out a bit... I have hate at this point so I stop dmg and they do some from behind the other side.... then they get hate back and I do a bit more from behind.
I cant definitively tell you we did 50% from the back but I dont see how we couldn't have done. No box though. But hate was a mess after I misunderstood what they were doing. So idk what to make of that but there ya go.
I cant definitively tell you we did 50% from the back but I dont see how we couldn't have done. No box though. But hate was a mess after I misunderstood what they were doing. So idk what to make of that but there ya go.
Asura.Cthaeh said: »
Turning him mid-fight is the only thing that we have noticed that happens every last time he doesn't grant the chest
I regularly lose hate mid-fight and high-jump/super jump to make him turn back to trust tank, always get chest.
The only thing that makes this setup not get chest is doing heavy SC dmg. So I try not to SC and whittle him down with mostly dmg from the back.
Have said before, I believe it is % of enmity based. Something like more than 50% of enmity held by person in front for a majority of the fight. If enmity is pretty close percentage wise may not get chest - which explains why when it turns for you you don't get chest, your enmity values are close.
Have even kept hate most of the fight then super jumped at 10%, still got chest.
A good test of this is have a DD /drg and both hold hate and do most of the dmg from the front without SC. At 10% have them super jump and leave it on a tank for at least as long as it took to get it to 10% before killing. See if that gets chest. At least then you know it's enmity and not dmg based. Can then narrow it down. If this fails you know it's not (just) enmity based.
Dodik said: »
Asura.Cthaeh said: »
Turning him mid-fight is the only thing that we have noticed that happens every last time he doesn't grant the chest
I regularly lose hate mid-fight and high-jump/super jump to make him turn back to trust tank, always get chest.
The only thing that makes this setup not get chest is doing heavy SC dmg. So I try not to SC and whittle him down with mostly dmg from the back.
Have said before, I believe it is % of enmity based. Something like more than 50% of enmity held by person in front for a majority of the fight. If enmity is pretty close percentage wise may not get chest - which explains why when it turns for you you don't get chest, your enmity values are close.
Have even kept hate most of the fight then super jumped at 10%, still got chest.
A good test of this is have a DD /drg and both hold hate and do most of the dmg from the front without SC. At 10% have them super jump and leave it on a tank for at least as long as it took to get it to 10% before killing. See if that gets chest. At least then you know it's enmity and not dmg based. Can then narrow it down. If this fails you know it's not (just) enmity based.
This is most likely a visual lag. If it was keep turning, then it's very possible it was already looking at person doing WS, or you need to wait 1 sec with WS after it turns.
Im also gearing mules for extra tries on this poney.
Moar MNKs to spam VS in its face.
Moar MNKs to spam VS in its face.
Not to beat a dead horse.. haha cuz u know we're all doing that rn.
IF its not "50% back dmg" which I've seen once for sure this week and probably twice... then for me it boils down to one of the following....
1) the threshold isn't 50%. its not 42% either lol. 33%? 25? I dont think its gonna be this because the botulus i messed up 2 days ago would have been easier to get box from this way.
2) there's no actual directional req on the 50%. Everyone is just doing it from behind bc habits and they dont want to fail so they stick with what works. I did 58% from the front and got box. So this would allow both accounts to be true.
3) Its some kind of hate mech thats more nuanced than "dont lose hate" like "keep hate for X time" or "x percent" or kill without letting hate swap X times. The issue with just assuming its 50% back dmg without trying to fail it on purpose to prove it is that it allows emnity to stay on the table. For you to be behind the mob long enough to do 50% of the dmg, someone has to be holding it away from you for that same % of dmg as well.
4) some other thing I cant fathom lol.
I can leaden the porxie all day every day till the servers shut down and go to my grave believing thats the deal. But I can force leaden kill to fail if I dont get the blue box first. No one has ever reported that getting blue box first can fail. if someone ever did, it would mess all of that up lol. Anyway, im just saying the burden of proof needs to be higher at this point. Until you can full isolate one condition and eliminate all others, doubt remains. I'll keep messing with botulus and horse.. bc if botulus mech is completely different to what we're doing it would explain why the horse isn't giving box. Whatever the horse answer is, we're not doing it. And most of the things I listed above arent happening on horse kills. We're picking a side and hammering one type of dmg. No one is really trying to mess with hate much.
IF its not "50% back dmg" which I've seen once for sure this week and probably twice... then for me it boils down to one of the following....
1) the threshold isn't 50%. its not 42% either lol. 33%? 25? I dont think its gonna be this because the botulus i messed up 2 days ago would have been easier to get box from this way.
2) there's no actual directional req on the 50%. Everyone is just doing it from behind bc habits and they dont want to fail so they stick with what works. I did 58% from the front and got box. So this would allow both accounts to be true.
3) Its some kind of hate mech thats more nuanced than "dont lose hate" like "keep hate for X time" or "x percent" or kill without letting hate swap X times. The issue with just assuming its 50% back dmg without trying to fail it on purpose to prove it is that it allows emnity to stay on the table. For you to be behind the mob long enough to do 50% of the dmg, someone has to be holding it away from you for that same % of dmg as well.
4) some other thing I cant fathom lol.
I can leaden the porxie all day every day till the servers shut down and go to my grave believing thats the deal. But I can force leaden kill to fail if I dont get the blue box first. No one has ever reported that getting blue box first can fail. if someone ever did, it would mess all of that up lol. Anyway, im just saying the burden of proof needs to be higher at this point. Until you can full isolate one condition and eliminate all others, doubt remains. I'll keep messing with botulus and horse.. bc if botulus mech is completely different to what we're doing it would explain why the horse isn't giving box. Whatever the horse answer is, we're not doing it. And most of the things I listed above arent happening on horse kills. We're picking a side and hammering one type of dmg. No one is really trying to mess with hate much.
My main theory on horse rn is to ping pong hate on it... like as much as possible. That or don't do a majority of dmg from any one direction. so like 40% back, 40% front, 20% side or something.
I will corroborate a couple of things Ive seen others say. I have tried to SCH SC burst the botulus down twice.. from behind tbf and its failed both times. So the idea that burst/SC dmg can mess with it is valid. Also it complicates emnity a bit bc i wasnt thinking about hate then... but in theory no hate should have been pulled... but cant say that for sure.
It's either direction based or enmity based. Call it whatever you want but the requirement is absolutely more than just "Do more WS dmg than magic damage from behind" (Though that part is 100% correct). We've not gotten the chest from it turning from enmity where we did everything else the same on several occasions.
I agree with the prior statement, everyone just gets behind it because it works everytime. If you don't turn it (and dmg it significantly while it's on/looking at you) and you don't do too much magic dmg it's a guaranteed chest. (some magic is definitely okay, we used to burst off of Leaden > TF > LS and got a chest every time)
It could be something as nuanced as "Don't do more than XX percent of dmg if you are at the top of the hate list". Tanks usually do ***WS dmg so it would fit the pattern.
I agree with the prior statement, everyone just gets behind it because it works everytime. If you don't turn it (and dmg it significantly while it's on/looking at you) and you don't do too much magic dmg it's a guaranteed chest. (some magic is definitely okay, we used to burst off of Leaden > TF > LS and got a chest every time)
It could be something as nuanced as "Don't do more than XX percent of dmg if you are at the top of the hate list". Tanks usually do ***WS dmg so it would fit the pattern.
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