Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion

To be fair afaik, beside angon, nothing will really work on F, G and H, unless H is randomly in specific element and G is in Wind hand? So BST should add quite a lot of def down to 8 boss runs.

Not sure if ooze would work on F in thunder hands. And you mean F in wind hands.

Ageha should also work on G, subject to macc.

Yeah sorry I was thinking about Gartell not G. Problem with G is you don't exactly know if you applied it or not and it's also big DPS loss to just spam it.

I don't think even 5% resist rank can block Ooze from landing, so it should land on F whatever which hand mode.

That's weird, I was talking about when you told people that everything they needed to know about B/F boss was already perfectly outlined on BG wiki. Perfect community building for new/returning players.

So back to this, how frequently does that happen? and if frequently, how long until you realize that you're the common factor in that sentence?

Oh, when you said

You meant a month ago. Sorry, I don't consider a month ago to be recently, but I guess now I understand what you're referring to.

This conversation was nowhere near how you described it.


Guy says stuff is missing on BG wiki


I tell him how to kill the boss.


He asks for details about Chokehold, but I thought he was asking about Asylum


I was (mildly) sassy because I thought he was asking about Asylum. TBF though, both Asylum AND Chokehold are explicitly explained on the BG wiki and anyone who's fighting F boss should read his wiki page, or at the very least (in my opinion) not claim that some information is missing from BG wiki when it is explicitly right there, on the page of the NM you're fighting.


Sure, they're inexperienced. How much experience do you think it takes to find the Gartell page on BG wiki and read it?


IDK, I'm sure I'm not being entirely sensitive, but after 5 posts explaining everything to do, someone still pretends that the problem is with the wiki or their lack of a deep understanding of the fight, but their questions can be answered by reading the page named after the enemy they're fighting, I'm going to give a little sassy pushback. Re-read these posts if you want, I think I was being more than reasonable and very helpful. I answered every one of his questions and acknowledged my misunderstanding of his messages...I guess I'm just a bully though.

Yeah I'm not sure how reliable Ageha and Armor Break are on basement bosses.

Ignoring the DEF down for a moment, would a BST even do better DPS than a RDM anyway?

Also if GEO is subbing RDM then Dia3 only adds 5% over Dia2?

I haven't played with any DD BST in...maybe ever, but several people on the last page said their DD BST friends do around what a BRD does, so no, not even remotely close.


Maybe I'm missing some off-meta strat, but when would you have a GEO and not have it subbing DRK?

I don't think we are talking about Aminon. I think msot people agree that pushing BST do 9boss run would be almost impossible.

that being said structure for 8boss melee run is mostly I think:
DD1
DD2
BRD
COR
WHM
6th

That 6th could be RDM, could be GEO etc.

Having both RDM and GEO is very rare imo, so if BST would replace someone it would be either DD or that 6th place.

One major kill speed bonus with BST is for A and E bosses, popping an aquan pet and using killer instinct on everybody before engaging and swapping back to slug for Ooze.

On the BST vs RDM damage subject, it really depends on how well both are geared. If both are BiS, Nyam r30 etc… BST will do higher WS damage, but RDM will TP faster becuse of Temper, so it would be quite simillar. BST would end up doing more overall damage if none are using Savage Blade, with RDM using club WSs and BST Axe WSs to cater for the WS wall.

One thing to keep in mind is the 20min cooldown on Bestial Loyalty makes it quite painful to use two different pets for buffs/debuffs on all 8 bosses, you have to time your Random Deals, Wild Cards and Unleash correctly.

Notable BST buff/debuffs you should use on top of Ooze:
Snapweed’s Nepenthic Plunge = gravity -76% movement speed for 3-5min for kiting strats on H and F
Acuex’s Pestilent Plume = TP-50/tic Plague, Accuracy-50, MDB-25 for 60s
Mandy’s Wild Oats = -20% VIT for 3min
Beetle’s High Frequency Field = -40 Eva for 3min ( Distract3 from RDM is way better )
Spider’s Spider Web = 50% Slow
Sheep’s Rage = +60% attack -50% def to master for 9min
Coeurl’s Frenzied Rage = +25% attack to master (if you can’t afford the def down from sheep’s rage)

That's interesting I wasn't aware of this. Have you used it before? Does it land on H and F bosses? First try, or does it take many attempts? RDM has a very difficult time landing it on those bosses without Stymie or some immunobreaks.


Oh, I've never seen a melee strat with GEO in place of RDM. Suppose it makes sense, though there are many disadvantages/rigidity to using GEO over RDM.

Yeah the land rate is what id be curious about, bst does have some good debuff tools in its kit but their durations are typically short and they dont have immunobreak ability that the actual spells get, that and losing distract is a pretty heavy loss on basement bosses, along with as mentioned just having to swap pets around constantly, potentially on the same boss. Really wish they had made pet swapping more feasible for that job, as well as less inventory intensive

Nope unfortunatly I haven’t had the chance to properly test Nephretic Plunge on them. All runs where we’re kiting H and F is for 9 boss runs, so I never get the chance to bring BST.

I’d love to find a way but I just can’t see it ever happening, even with Aminon easy mode.
Ooze timer is really not long enough, and you have to swap to leech for TP drain. You could have the main DD full time attacking Aminon similar to Mboze strats. But really all the buffs and debuffs from BRD,COR,GEO,RDM are needed for Aminon to do consistent damage so I really don’t see how it would work withouth the RDM.
Maybe having two people melee at all time the DD and the COR, with everybody else sub DRK and using TP drain on top of the BST could work, it’s tough to say.

Plus all the AoE damage from Aminon, would be a pain in the butt to keep pets alive.

Yeah, just cant see bst repping anything other than a DD and at least in my mind it doesnt have the firepower to fully replace that either, just kinda stuck in the middle, like said itll probably work fine in an 8 boss setup but feel like thad be it.

BST would be instead of GEO, not RDM. The only thing that GEO does on Aminon is Frailty/Fury and Absorb-TP. You could just go BST/DRK and do Absorb-TP too (COR/DRK can do it, so BST/DRK should be able to do it also). Ooze instead of Bolster Frailty is slightly weaker, but should be enough. Now you are losing Fury too, so COR would probably need to switch Miser to Chaos, because I don't think Miser would be better in that case. BST would add some WS damage too, so it should be technically possible, but it would be slower and I'm not sure if you could push 8 bosses after that. I wouldn't bother to use TP drainkiss at all. Just keep Ooze up.


EDIT: Going back to 8boss run, I don't think, that any axe WS on BST could keep up with Black Halo damage (assuming dual wield and tp bonus offhands on both). Also BST would have a hard time TPing with TP bonus offhand on basement bosses (low acc) and with Ikenga's instead, the WS damage would be significantly weaker.

Yeah that could maybe work, worth testing for sure.
Actually I have no idea if the Snapweed’s gravity stacks with RDM’s gravity (like GEO-Gravity does) for H and F.

Fairly certain it'd take the same gravity slot, since geomancy gets its own buff/debuff effect

For sure not. I think both are the same effect, but I'm pretty sure H and F could be defeated without kiting too or with kiting with just RDM gravity.

H is already annoyingly fast with Indi-Gravity and RDM gravity, I can't imagine how ridiculous he would be without Indi-Gravity. He is blisteringly fast when not gravity'd (I think +200%?)

F wouldn't be as bad and could probably be done without Indi-Gravity, though it would make the kiting more difficult


GEO is already doing WS anyway, though maybe the BST damage would be better? Not sure though because they would be /drk so no TP bonus OH. Swapping (losing) a roll and/or a bubble for the entire run is the real kicker.


I think you could definitely do...something...but it would be a downgrade no matter which job you "replaced" with a BST. You could do something with a SMN or a BLU too, I'm sure, but it would be a downgrade.

Not sure how much it'd cover the gap but they do get a decent chunk of fencer (630 TP bonus with gifts)

I mean BST is already doing a 10%HP free damage with purulent ooze as well. That’s already more than what a GEO does on the whole Aminon parse.

That's also assuming it lands, which i gotta go back to how reliable that is, corrosive gets a freebie but im pretty sure purulent has a macc check, not sue what element the hp down is but given how high resistances are on basement bosses outside of their weak elements idk how easily that lands

Both Oozes are Water based spells, and the Snapweed’s gravity is Water based as well.

Gartell (F) has 5% water resistance rank so, not gonna happen. Aita depends on mode, he'd have to open up with the right TP move for you to get the 10%. Triboulex has 50% so it might be possible, but...


Aminon starts in, and for standard strategies, stays in dark/light mode the entire fight, which means his Water resistance rank is 5% the whole fight.

The dmg is water based, the debuffs tend to be a different element, usually matching whatever the base debuff is, i.e gravity is wind based usually. Granted pets are usually the ones to get funky exceptions to this, like sirens elegy being wind based slow.

Corrosive has no macc on its debuff aspect, wasnt sure what element purulents hp down was, but i know that can resist without a lot of macc on it, just looking at a few searches on it being used in ody it seems to be awater based debuff too.

Yeah it is water, you can’t use it on Ngai for example.
Would definitely be interesting to test on which bosses it lands, having RDM with frazzle will definitely help, but a shame you can’t really swap out the PLD for a RUN for Rayke.

RUN can rep a PLD iirc, PLDs just better overall when it comes to ani and 9 boss as a whole, but yeah you'd need unda on many of the bosses i think, cant use it on A/E for obvious reasons as well but those 2 tend to drop the quickest anyway next to C/G.

Ok well in this context with the addition of the word sassy, your side makes more sense.

The Ooze is a -10% MAX HP debuff. It only works as doing 10% HP damage if you apply it at 100%HP. After taking the mob to 90%HP, it does no damage at all.