Difficulty In FFXI - A Retrospective

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Difficulty in FFXI - a retrospective
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 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-01-04 09:52:55
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You bring up a really good point Saeval, when trying to determine whether or not an act involves cheating, it's really important to ask the community for a consensus to determine whether or not they agree.

Cheating

Whoops I accidently pasted that link, never mind that it's for a totally unrelated topic.
 Bahamut.Mhysa
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By Bahamut.Mhysa 2023-01-04 10:18:52
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Legion feels like a fever dream to me. I remember clearing all halls with my Linkshell (and I thought it was hard, tbh!) but now when I talk to a couple of friends who still play, they mention that they never did Legion due it’s difficulty.

Ah, the good days where 3 HNMs got to stomp on you at the same time!
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2023-01-04 10:22:31
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Bahamut.Mhysa said: »
Legion feels like a fever dream to me. I remember clearing all halls with my Linkshell (and I thought it was hard, tbh!) but now when I talk to a couple of friends who still play, they mention that they never did Legion due it’s difficulty.

Ah, the good days where 3 HNMs got to stomp on you at the same time!

Legion was probably the first content that really required the DD's to wear hybrid sets. The SCH's would still do their best to stun lock stuff, but the bosses got kinda stupid at the higher tiers. It as alliance content so we got to get creative with party setups.
 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-04 10:28:03
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
OK well if you're at a point where you're given yourself so many buffs that your normal attack round is 5500 damage, you're doing the fight wrong. Have a lower damage weapon, remove some buffs, or (sub 25) turn away from the mob until it uses a TP move, and then if it's anything but pain sync, turn around and whack it a few times while it's preparing.

You can't seriously expect the game to let you win when you choose the wrong tactics and do the mechanics wrong. Like Oh I spammed water nukes on Dhartok and it killed me! What the hell SE, why are you making this game impossible! I took 15 empyrean DDs into the Glassy Gorger and he started randomly 1shotting us! This game is so ridiculous I'm just going to use my invincibility hacks because how else did they expect us to kill these impossible bosses?
Dude the point is that due to NA latency, even automated perfect turning is not good enough to turn in time.

Yes, you could "make sure to turn every auto attack round", and thats a really stupid way to need to play to circumvent NA latency.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2023-01-04 10:36:38
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
OK well if you're at a point where you're given yourself so many buffs that your normal attack round is 5500 damage, you're doing the fight wrong. Have a lower damage weapon, remove some buffs, or (sub 25) turn away from the mob until it uses a TP move, and then if it's anything but pain sync, turn around and whack it a few times while it's preparing.

You can't seriously expect the game to let you win when you choose the wrong tactics and do the mechanics wrong. Like Oh I spammed water nukes on Dhartok and it killed me! What the hell SE, why are you making this game impossible! I took 15 empyrean DDs into the Glassy Gorger and he started randomly 1shotting us! This game is so ridiculous I'm just going to use my invincibility hacks because how else did they expect us to kill these impossible bosses?
Dude the point is that due to NA latency, even automated perfect turning is not good enough to turn in time.


Honestly a lot of the pain Olympics that SE builds can be avoided by getting away from "random" nature of it and instead having them based off patterns. Like try to imagine Pain Sync would be the first TP move used at 75 / 50 / 25 / 10 HP. We would know that, and then plan our strategy around dealing with it that those points. Same with the recent batch of ***, their super move of ***could be either timed, based off HP percentage or total moves used. The players would then be able to predict it and construct a strategy around that.

Take Arribati V25, which is likely to be unbeatable in it's current state. If it only used Glassy Nova (full dispel) at certain percentages or every 5 moves or on a timer, then the players would know to run away before, then run back in after. The other moves are bad, but something that can be dealt with and not run enders.
 Bismarck.Demetor
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By Bismarck.Demetor 2023-01-04 10:39:46
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Dude the point is that due to NA latency, even automated perfect turning is not good enough to turn in time.

Yes, you could "make sure to turn every auto attack round", and thats a really stupid way to need to play to circumvent NA latency.

What? Is NA latency really the new "I got caught in WS set" excuse? Pain Sync doesn't need to deal exactly 0 damage every time nor was it intended to I'm sure. It changes how you approach the content, for example I expect most groups limited to one melee and you should probably only WS after you've seen it start to ready a non-Pain Sync move. If you're doing 3750 (and this is generous, because most of us have well over 1.5k HP) "unluckily" because you threw fully buffed MNK at it or were too lazy to click off AM3 hoping for a script to bail you out, you are bad.
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By SimonSes 2023-01-04 10:40:17
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Dude the point is that due to NA latency, even automated perfect turning is not good enough to turn in time.

Yes, you could "make sure to turn every auto attack round", and thats a really stupid way to need to play to circumvent NA latency.

You are obviously wrong here. Glassy Gorger has like 1000TP regain under 25%. Its designed to only do damage between TP moves or during right TP moves and you definitely should turn away BEFORE TP move, not only when you see Pain Sync in chat. Above 50% when it has less regain, you need to feel when to turn or use strategy where you force tp move with weak hits and do proper damage right after TP move. It's definitely not designed to be able to turn away before you hit it at least one round while capped haste, when only reacting to Pain Sync in chat.
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 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-01-04 10:40:36
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Dude the point is that due to NA latency, even automated perfect turning is not good enough to turn in time.

Yes, you could "make sure to turn every auto attack round", and thats a really stupid way to need to play to circumvent NA latency.

I get the point, but the hyperbole being used to justify React is unwarranted. You will not die from a single auto-attack round because of NA latency. I have beaten this boss hundreds of times and never used react. If you get a single attack round off while using an appropriate DD with appropriate weapons and doing the mechanics properly, you will not die. If you died, it's because you're using the wrong weapon, too many DD at once, hit a WS at the wrong time, or some combination of all of the above.

A proper setup playing the game properly will never die to Pain Sync without making a mistake. I will stand by that 100%. Put me up against Glassy Thinker 1000 times and I'll bet you 10m per attempt that I don't die to Pain Sync once, without a single addon, plugins, or third party program. Who wants to take the bet?
 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-04 10:54:12
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Bismarck.Demetor said: »
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Dude the point is that due to NA latency, even automated perfect turning is not good enough to turn in time.

Yes, you could "make sure to turn every auto attack round", and thats a really stupid way to need to play to circumvent NA latency.

What? Is NA latency really the new "I got caught in WS set" excuse? Pain Sync doesn't need to deal exactly 0 damage every time nor was it intended to I'm sure. It changes how you approach the content, for example I expect most groups limited to one melee and you should probably only WS after you've seen it start to ready a non-Pain Sync move. If you're doing 3750 (and this is generous, because most of us have well over 1.5k HP) "unluckily" because you threw fully buffed MNK at it or were too lazy to click off AM3 hoping for a script to bail you out, you are bad.
k
Asura.Eiryl said: »
You can't control multi procs and onion dagger is hyperbole (but probably still possible as overtuned as we are)

A TA with any 119 weapon, you die

Gotten all my trusts killed dozens of times with karambit/tauret/gokotai (in shitty ambuscade gear) even with react running away on use. Lose trusts, it's a wrap.

Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
And yet, despite AI based perfect turning (rather, as perfect as potentially possible), you can still eat a 3k pain sync because of NA latency and a triple dmg / triple attack / quad attack proc.
 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-04 10:56:48
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he said click off aftermath lol

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 Bismarck.Demetor
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By Bismarck.Demetor 2023-01-04 10:59:42
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Pretty sure I do like 1.2k with 2x Naegling Crits, double that for a quad crit and I'm at 2.4k...still quite comfortably living. If I used Chango my chance to die would definitely increase substantially, but since I know what I'm fighting I don't do that.

Keep coping tho.

Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
he said click off aftermath lol

Switch weapon? Did you not know that or is being pedantic only thing you got left?
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2023-01-04 11:05:59
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Draylo said: »

There are private servers that have even Dynamis D, but most are buggy mess. So they do go beyond the 75 era but poorly. I really disagree with you overall, I think private servers are a complete detriment to retail. Just look at the video I linked on the first page, READ those comments! Just read the lunacy dripping off them. You have people trying to actively recruit others to a *free* private server. People actively bashing retail, thinking we are still in Abyssea at the end when we had super powered atma. These people are ALL over the place, Reddit, Youtube you name it. I have debated with them endlessly and theres a lot of them. Hell, even previous LS members of mine are jaded by current retail and think 75 era was best. I just dont see private servers as a benefit whatsoever for retail.

Ultimately you're in an uphill losing fight against nostalgia because most of the people pining for a lvl75 experience are looking for that first time XI all of us fell in love with that simply cannot happen again. The coeurls out of the bag, most of us are nearly 20 years older, windower exists, social media exists where people can do more than consult allakhazam or killing ifrit or blue gartr.

Anyone who wants to talk about golden age XI better be ready to talk about how every pet job was ***, how WOTG cratered the game because Tanaka was busy wiring the greatest bomb in Final Fantasy history (RIP XIV 1.0), how content like Moblin Maze Mongers, Pankration and Chocobo Racing had little incentive to be completed, how SE straight up lied about AV, RMT were running rampant monopolizing lotto pop NMs or talk about why Newton Movalpolos was designed by a psychopath etc etc.

I look fondly back on classic XI (ROZ-WOTG) but without Abyssea this game would be shut down and the servers in a Japanese landfill.
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-04 11:07:41
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Bismarck.Demetor said: »
Pretty sure I do like 1.2k with 2x Naegling Crits, double that for a quad crit and I'm at 2.4k...still quite comfortably living. If I used Chango my chance to die would definitely increase substantially, but since I know what I'm fighting I don't do that.

Keep coping tho.

Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
he said click off aftermath lol

Switch weapon? Did you not know that or is being pedantic only thing you got left?
Ahem, keep coping

or you can keep pulling the Spicyryan "REEE CHEATING IN MY FFXI"


Also, reminder that windower is also cheating per the ToS.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2023-01-04 11:23:05
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Bismarck.Demetor said: »
Pretty sure I do like 1.2k with 2x Naegling Crits, double that for a quad crit and I'm at 2.4k...still quite comfortably living. If I used Chango my chance to die would definitely increase substantially, but since I know what I'm fighting I don't do that.

Keep coping tho.

Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
he said click off aftermath lol

Switch weapon? Did you not know that or is being pedantic only thing you got left?
Ahem, keep coping

or you can keep pulling the Spicyryan "REEE CHEATING IN MY FFXI"


Also, reminder that windower is also cheating per the ToS.


Well misery does love company.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-01-04 11:24:36
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Also, reminder that windower is also cheating per the ToS.

[Citation needed]

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.

I guess if you're defining Windower as modifying the Game and gameplay then sure, but I think "launching two instances of FFXI on the same physical PC" is a stretch when you're talking about modifying the Game and gameplay.
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 Bahamut.Justthetip
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2023-01-04 11:36:08
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Also, reminder that windower is also cheating per the ToS.

[Citation needed]

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.

I guess if you're defining Windower as modifying the Game and gameplay then sure, but I think "launching two instances of FFXI on the same physical PC" is a stretch when you're talking about modifying the Game and gameplay.
Not really what windower isn't part of the game and it's pretty simple it's cheating. You use this program to modify game files. Se back in the day hit people with bans for stuff like this. I think people forget it's up to SE at end of day which se just ignores it now.
Edit: Mostly due to the fact they'd loss almost 80% of the playerbase for using windower.
 Bismarck.Demetor
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By Bismarck.Demetor 2023-01-04 11:36:37
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Bismarck.Demetor said: »
Pretty sure I do like 1.2k with 2x Naegling Crits, double that for a quad crit and I'm at 2.4k...still quite comfortably living. If I used Chango my chance to die would definitely increase substantially, but since I know what I'm fighting I don't do that.

Keep coping tho.

Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
he said click off aftermath lol

Switch weapon? Did you not know that or is being pedantic only thing you got left?
Ahem, keep coping

or you can keep pulling the Spicyryan "REEE CHEATING IN MY FFXI"


Also, reminder that windower is also cheating per the ToS.

Hot take. "Everything's the same" shows a lot of critical thinking.

I was never here to die on the "don't use any cheat" hill and never indicated that, I use plenty of questionable things and I don't care what any given individual uses. I said that our community has been gradually accepting more and more cheat-y things as common place and acceptable. Simultaneously, they're rationalizing it as not cheating either because it's housed in Windower or by convincing themselves it's required like this dumb Pain Sync discussion.

If the player base is doing this while also asking for more difficult content out of SE, they now have to think "things like gaze moves and dancing fullers can no longer be used to provide meaningful difficulty because a lot of people will just automate it, knockback may also not be meaningful since a large portion will just cancel it", we've influenced their design choices by eliminating some of their normal avenues for adding difficulty.
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-04 11:41:34
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Also, reminder that windower is also cheating per the ToS.

[Citation needed]

2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.

I guess if you're defining Windower as modifying the Game and gameplay then sure, but I think "launching two instances of FFXI on the same physical PC" is a stretch when you're talking about modifying the Game and gameplay.
Yes, Windower is "modifying the game and gameplay", especially considering SE has made their own windowed function.
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 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-01-04 11:41:57
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Bahamut.Justthetip said: »
You use this program to modify game files

Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Yes, Windower is "modifying the game and gameplay"

Which game files does Windower modify? Could someone explain to me how the game functions differently, or how the gameplay is altered by using Windower, instead of just saying it does?

OK, if this is how we're going to have a discussion, I'll take your route: Windower is not modifying the game files. Windower is not modifying the game or gameplay.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2023-01-04 11:43:24
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Regardless of its function Windower is a third party program, it is not made or endorsed by SE and if you asked them they would absolutely say it falls under ToS.
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-04 11:45:10
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »
You use this program to modify game files

Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Yes, Windower is "modifying the game and gameplay"

Which game files does Windower modify? Could someone explain to me how the game functions differently, or how the gameplay is altered by using Windower, instead of just saying it does?

OK, if this is how we're going to have a discussion, I'll take your route: Windower is not modifying the game files. Windower is not modifying the game or gameplay.
Go contact a GM and tell them you're using windower lol
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-04 11:45:39
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I'm just playing, dont, I dont want you to get banned.
 Bismarck.Demetor
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By Bismarck.Demetor 2023-01-04 11:46:19
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We all know the GM ain't responding.
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-04 11:48:06
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Not true
I sent a mule to Asura to pick up some stuff to smuggle over the borders, and I got stuck on Asura after the server transfer cause I logged back into POL too quick.

I think took them 90 minutes to answer, but they did answer.
 Asura.Vyre
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By Asura.Vyre 2023-01-04 11:53:47
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3rd Party stuff and talk is always the same in every MMO. "Ah, yeah, the devs are wink wink nudge nudging us to cheat! We totally wouldn't if they didn't!"

And it's like, nah man, y'all just will to powering this ***. You cheat because you can, and because you face no real repercussions as long as you don't stream it or whatever.

Whether it's small time cheating like windower or big time cheating like automated play, people justify/rationalize whatever level they're comfortable with and play.

This reminds me though, of that one thread from a long time ago. Some LS took down Absolute Virtue a little while after its HP got nerf'd post Pandy Warden PR debacle. I guess it was also post Souleater KC zerg nerf, too.

Some dude recorded their win, and then a bunch of people jumped on, on both sides of the cheating discussion. Someone pointed out they'd used a windower add-on(I think? I'm too dumb and just play pure vanilla) that makes it so they don't experience PC-body collision, so everyone in their alliance got to engage AV faster than they would have otherwise, and the win was such a near thing, people were saying that even that small level of QoL was hardcore cheating.

But it was true, even that small advantage let them get their win. Of course, just a few months later, another level cap raise made the whole thing moot.
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 Bahamut.Justthetip
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2023-01-04 12:02:33
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »
You use this program to modify game files

Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Yes, Windower is "modifying the game and gameplay"

Which game files does Windower modify? Could someone explain to me how the game functions differently, or how the gameplay is altered by using Windower, instead of just saying it does?

OK, if this is how we're going to have a discussion, I'll take your route: Windower is not modifying the game files. Windower is not modifying the game or gameplay.
Go contact a GM and tell them you're using windower lol
I'm gonna guess it went over your head but sure man be dumb about it I guess. The program itself isn't til you turn plug-in and ***on. Why people are being braindead apes about this and acting like they don't know what people mean is stupid.
 Lakshmi.Sparthosx
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2023-01-04 12:04:07
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At this point with all the multiple alt accounts in play and the widespread adoption of windower/ashita unless you provoke the 2 GMs that sign in to work every 21-24hrs, SE doesn't give a ***. They benefit from the revenue and this is a game well past its service prime.

Blatant RMT shouts for weeks ain't getting shitcanned. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Now if you decide to be Cactrot Rapido across zones, you're probably going to have a bad time. As for me, I play on a PS2 with my included HDD and I can't wait to play some Triple Triad later. Maybe get in a little cybering session in the POL chatrooms. ^^/
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 Bahamut.Justthetip
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2023-01-04 12:07:43
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Asura.Vyre said: »
3rd Party stuff and talk is always the same in every MMO. "Ah, yeah, the devs are wink wink nudge nudging us to cheat! We totally wouldn't if they didn't!"

And it's like, nah man, y'all just will to powering this ***. You cheat because you can, and because you face no real repercussions as long as you don't stream it or whatever.

Whether it's small time cheating like windower or big time cheating like automated play, people justify/rationalize whatever level they're comfortable with and play.

This reminds me though, of that one thread from a long time ago. Some LS took down Absolute Virtue a little while after its HP got nerf'd post Pandy Warden PR debacle. I guess it was also post Souleater KC zerg nerf, too.

Some dude recorded their win, and then a bunch of people jumped on, on both sides of the cheating discussion. Someone pointed out they'd used a windower add-on(I think? I'm too dumb and just play pure vanilla) that makes it so they don't experience PC-body collision, so everyone in their alliance got to engage AV faster than they would have otherwise, and the win was such a near thing, people were saying that even that small level of QoL was hardcore cheating.

But it was true, even that small advantage let them get their win. Of course, just a few months later, another level cap raise made the whole thing moot.
Cheating is always gonna have two sides because what some think is cheating may not be the same for others. If you use windower for just the fact to enhance the game looks or the fact the game runs better is that cheating? The answer is still yes because it's 3rd party program people will fight you on that. I agree with you people have pushed the line so much not just them SE has also at this point. If anything windower saves se from doing so much work the game needs updated as far as ui is concerned.
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 Lakshmi.Cesil
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By Lakshmi.Cesil 2023-01-04 12:08:28
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Yeah I don't think SE cares anymore about any of this stuff. It reminds me of FFXIV 1.x days, we could hack, bot, do whatever and the devs did not care at all.

There is a thread on the main forums of some person reporting the same RMT for years now and SE does nothing to ban them. :X
 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-01-04 12:09:13
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Bahamut.Justthetip said: »
Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »
You use this program to modify game files

Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
Yes, Windower is "modifying the game and gameplay"

Which game files does Windower modify? Could someone explain to me how the game functions differently, or how the gameplay is altered by using Windower, instead of just saying it does?

OK, if this is how we're going to have a discussion, I'll take your route: Windower is not modifying the game files. Windower is not modifying the game or gameplay.
Go contact a GM and tell them you're using windower lol
I'm gonna guess it went over your head but sure man be dumb about it I guess. The program itself isn't til you turn plug-in and ***on. Why people are being braindead apes about this and acting like they don't know what people mean is stupid.
Ok, you're right, windower isnt cheating, so you can safely tell GM you play on windower :)

You're pretty much making up your own arbitrary line of what is and isnt acceptable cheating to justify why your cheating is acceptable. Theres only one entity that can draw the line of what isnt and isnt cheating in FFXI, and that is SE.
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