Potential To Solve Mob SDT/MDB With Swipe/Lunge?

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Potential to solve mob SDT/MDB with Swipe/Lunge?
 Ragnarok.Casey
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By Ragnarok.Casey 2022-03-13 13:33:24
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While trying to determine the exact formula for Swipe/Lunge with one rune I noticed my numbers were just slightly off the suggested formula on a level -1 bee in south gustaberg. I adjusted by adding 1 MAB because as far as I can tell mastered RUN99 has no MAB barring subjob or gear.

Once adding +1 MAB the numbers lined up perfectly, though I did have to adjust the formula by adding +1 skill.

My proposed formula for Swipe and 1 rune Lunge is as follows:

floor( floor( ( (Mainhand weapon skill + 1)* (0.5 + SwipeBonus) ) )*SDT) + MagicDamage

where Swipe Bonus is Lunge+ gear (aettir, soulcleaver have +10 each) or job points + which cap at +20 in percentage form in x/256

where SDT is the SDT of the element in percentage form in x/256

Do note that there are other magic terms I'm not listing like resist, magic burst, etc. My tests didn't include those as a baseline. The targets I chose can't cast shell or aren't known to have MDT.

in a test where I believe I solved a level 10 Amethyst Quadav having 11 MDB using the following variables:

SDT = (332/256) -- assumed to be 130% SDT to thunder
Mainhand weapon skill = 656
SwipeBonus = (51/256) -- 20% from 20/20 job points
MagicDamage = 0

crunch the math with the following:
floor(floor((656 + 1)* (0.5 + (51/256))))*(332/256))+0 = 595.

Damage should be 595 if my MAB = their MDB, this Amethyst Quadav is a WHM which should have MDB 1 trait for +10 MDB

10 MAB:

We're off by 5 damage here...

11 MAB:

Spot on. This coincides with mobs having a base of 1 MDB, and players having a base of 0 MAB.

Can someone check my work here? It seems we can solve for elemental SDT and MDB on any target due to the fact that barring resist, factoring in MDT/phalanx etc, Swipe and Lunge do static damage.

Also, some additional bonus facts about Swipe/Lunge that are not listed on the wiki (as of this post)
* Does not give TP (tested with charm)
* Is blinkable by shadows
* The rune selected for Swipe is always the newest one
* The visible animation selected for lunge is either the last rune used or the highest strength rune if you expend 3 runes (2 ignis + 1 gelus = fire animation, even if gelus was used last)
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-13 15:12:37
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Some issues I can see is that those properties for Amethyst Quadavs are off. Level 10 Amethyst Quadavs have 110 MDB (100 base from species, then +10 from WHM job trait), and take neutral damage from thunder magic.
 Ragnarok.Casey
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By Ragnarok.Casey 2022-03-13 18:08:06
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This is a known target in the JP wiki testing. When I only have +1 MAB I get the same result (other variables unchanged) provided it has 130% SDT to dark.


source on the SDT:
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/130595-Legends-of-the-Hidden-jp-testing
from https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/349586062856814593/406106601292824598/FFXI_Monster_Resistances_full_1-25-18.xlsx

same thing also indicates quads have varying ranges of SDT to thunder, but most commonly 130% in what they tested. It does not look like they tested many....

So I tested one with known 130% thunder SDT. and listed "110 magic defense" which from my understanding should be +10 MDB, and yet, I needed +11 MAB to get this result.

 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-13 18:38:15
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Those are resistance ranks, not SDT. SDT refers to special damage reductions or increases, like Acuex taking +50% from ice (though having a standard 100% ice resistance rank), or Rampart's -25% damage taken as a separate multiplier.

The MDB thing means your formula is off somehow, since those MDBs have been tested and confirmed using other methods that are more proven.
 Ragnarok.Casey
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By Ragnarok.Casey 2022-03-13 18:45:23
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Give me a target with known SDT values and MDB and I will test it.
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-13 18:58:29
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The Quadav you were fighting should be a perfectly good target (unless somehow we've had the wrong value for the tier 1 Magic Defense Bonus trait all along), but you can use lizards instead if you want to take MDB traits out of the picture. Standard, non-NM lizards with the normal skin (Rock Lizard, Hill Lizard, etc.) all have 0 SDT, 100 MDB, and a resistance rank spread of 100% fire, 150% wind, 100% thunder, 130% light, 150% ice, 100% earth, 130% water, 130% dark.

It's entirely possible that Swipe goes off of resistance rank, unlike normal magic damage, so using those values in your formula is fine if it makes damage line up; I was just making it clear that resistance rank and SDT are different parameters, and that Quadavs don't have any SDT.
 Bismarck.Radec
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By Bismarck.Radec 2022-03-13 19:14:33
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You're missing the +.25 per-rune expended term on BGWiki

(Main-hand weapon Skill) × (0.50 + 0.25*Runes + ((JP+Gear) ÷ 100) ) × Magic Multiplier Term

This might not be the right formula, though

vs Lvl0 Mandragora outside windurst:

Master RUN w/ H2H (16 skill): Swipe gives 14dmg. This is lower than expected (16*(.5+.25+.2)) = 15.2
0JP RUN w/ H2H (16 skill): Swipe gives 12dmg, exactly as expected (16*(.5+.25)) = 12

I don't have time to test this fully, but consider if run JP instead land like this:

(Main-hand weapon Skill * (100+JP)/100) × (0.50 + 0.25*Runes + ((Gear?) ÷ 100) ) × Magic Multiplier Term

(16*1.2) * (.75) = 19.2*.75 = 14.4, or 19*.75 = 14.25. Either rounds to 14, which matches what we saw.

Taking this to your test against the Amethyst:

(656 * 1.2) * .75 * (111/110) = 787.2 * .75 * 111/100 = 595.767
787*.75 = 590.25
590*111/110 = 595.36

This holds to 595 dmg, flooring at any step.
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 Ragnarok.Casey
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By Ragnarok.Casey 2022-03-13 20:50:49
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alright so, after poking on the listed lizard

1) it does not have SDT
2) swipe is not effected by resistance rank
3) my formula was wrong, and I think I fixed it.

I switched to Epeolatry which is stronger than the great axe I was using, plus it has mdamage which helps confirm things..

new proposed formula:
floor((floor((Mainhand weapon skill + 1 )* (0.7 + SwipeBonus))+Magic Damage) * magic terms)

This needs no additional MAB. It seems I did wrongly assume the "bee" page on bg wiki was giving me 130% SDT for fire, hence that 1.3x bonus in the OP.

floor(floor((709 + 1)* (0.7 + (51/256))+186)*1.00) = 823
add 1 MAB:
=floor(floor((709 + 1)* (0.7 + (51/256))+186)*1.01) = 831

and testing on a wind elemental...


switch to greataxe:
floor(floor((656 + 1)* (0.7 + (51/256))+0)*1.00) = 590
add 1 MAB:
floor(floor((656 + 1)* (0.7 + (51/256))+0)*1.01) = 595

(I switched to +1 MAB in this shot for the second attack)
 Ragnarok.Casey
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By Ragnarok.Casey 2022-03-13 20:58:28
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Bismarck.Radec said: »
You're missing the +.25 per-rune expended term on BGWiki

Lunge behaves the same as Swipe with 1 rune as far as I can tell. That bonus is listed for Lunge only, while Lunge does pretty clearly have a bonus for multiple runes used (damage is higher than 2x with only 2 of the same rune), I haven't gotten to Lunge (beyond 1 rune) yet.

The listed formulas on the wiki work great for low levels of skill and 0 mdamage but don't seem to work well on high skill/mdamage. That said, they really aren't that far off.

If I use the listed Swipe formula with 0 MAB...

floor(floor((656)* (0.75 + (51/256))+0)*1.00) = 622, which is higher than observed with my greataxe.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2022-03-13 21:06:35
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the job point description states it only applies to the skill portion. radec's formula works
 Ragnarok.Casey
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By Ragnarok.Casey 2022-03-13 21:24:56
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
the job point description states it only applies to the skill portion.
ahh yeah, you're right; I should have checked that. I had also checked that with Vivacious Pulse too. I'll do some verification
 Ragnarok.Casey
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By Ragnarok.Casey 2022-03-13 21:51:49
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epeolatry:
floor((709*1.2)*((0.5+0.25*1)))+186 = 823, checks out

random greataxe:
floor((656*1.2)*((0.5+0.25*1)))+0 = 590, checks out

Aettir (Lunge+10):
floor((682*1.2)*((0.5+0.25*1+0.1)))+0 = 695, checks out (see below)


Looks good to me!
 Ragnarok.Casey
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By Ragnarok.Casey 2022-03-13 22:01:35
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Looks like it works for Lunge too

With Aettir:

floor((682*1.2)*((0.5+0.25*3+0.1)))+0 = 1104
1104 * 3 = 3312



I was (once again) thrown off by an incorrect assumption. But it seems we've hit the mark here.
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