Odyssey R25 Confirmed ATM Now Maybe 30?...

I mean, this is exactly what Lex did, if I read it right yeah?

Oh I see that comment now. Yeah same idea, sorry I overlooked that with all of the quoted text boxes. Seems like a solid idea so long as what Lex mentioned about hate doesn't happen.

There exists an alternative, everyone switch's target to the add, then precedes to bash it's head it, then switch's back to the main NM.

How much time is wasted kiting / binding / messing with the add along with the extra HP it gives the boss vs just smashing it dead?

Tanks can hold the add just fine, they start at 0 enmity while everyone else starts at whatever they had on the boss, but a tank can spike hate and get enmity after it spawns. If nobody is hitting the boss, then the boss's TP gain is super slow.

T2+ adds have insane HP, have you done this strategy or just speculating? T3 are going to be very time sensitive as is if the increase in HP is substantial, and stopping to kill Bumba's add while aura timer wears down will be very problematic for the old strategy.

Not saying it can't or won't work, just asking if you've got any personal experience with it yet.

We've tried it, the adds do not have any special defenses and basically act like apex mobs with bigger HP bars. If a team can kill an add in ~2 minutes then it's in their best interests to do so.

More concerning is the manaburn NM's, you can't effectively zerg it like melee and mages are weaker and lower HP than melee counterparts. You really have to sleep the add in those.

Are you sure? Ruaumoko mentioned SCH's SP2 not working to transfer an add's enmity to the tank, and that thing gives them all enmity of the party.

But Lex just mentioned that Kalunga's Matamata has blunt weakness, which means it resist slashing (Kalunga's vulnerability), so which one is it? Normally you bring DRK to Kalunga since it has highest attack stat, so how would you deal with the matamata with blunt damage? If you say use WAR instead of DRK, then only WAR can deal blunt damage in a standard setup, and I don't know if WAR has enough firepower to take out both the add AND get back to the boss. Going along with what Thorny said about time being critical, I am a bit skeptical switching targets to the add is always the best method for every boss. The lower tiers sure, but idk about the T3/Bumba. Especially since the add would have hate on the main DD, not the tank, so he could very easily die if you went this route.

We are only a couple of days into this content, so it's still to early to tell what is and isn't possible, but you have been stating certain things about mechanics that are speculative as if it were facts.

Saevel idea is based on A1 add they killed. He clearly have no idea how hard are A3 adds, but he regularly talks about his opinions and speculation like if they were facts, so it's nothing surprising here. Killing A3 add most likely only have sense if you do 2 fights to kill the boss and you spend first one to damage add as low as possible (below 5%) and then focus on boss till you time out. Then in second fight you finish off add fast and go for the boss. That would only work if add doesn't regen between fights tho, so it's only speculation at this point.

Oh it's entirely possible T3 adds have different mechanics, T1 and 2 were just regular members of their respective families. Folks aren't recording enough details in their race to see who can V20 bumba first. I blame it on the over use of scoreboard.

https://github.com/flippant/parse

Use this instead, records WAY better data and lets you export/import data as XML for analysis.

We had been talking about T3s this entire time, not T1/2. But you implied you had evidence of this on the T3s, because you responded to Thorny saying "we've tried it". And now you are saying it's entirely possible T3s have different mechanics? And now you are trolling to save face. lol...

This is known as a personal attack, it's not necessary so stop it.

You are also confusing the order of conversation.



T1's and T2's are killable super fast along with the tank being able to get hate on the add. Due to Asura having a 60 minute queue last night we couldn't get to the T3's to record actual information.

Good example is Lex saying weak to blunt, but they don't attempt to kill them, so did their DRK do a Torcleaver for some amount, then a Judgement for another amount? Mata's tend to have higher defense but also take a ton of extra damage from all magic except Fire / Water, did the COR toss a Leaden Salute at it to see? People mentioned HP but I haven't seen a single number for estimated T3 add HP, or even the "new" T3 V20 "HP".

This happens after every new or updated battle system, the initial folks win using some method, everyone copies that method and swears by it. Three to six months later we find out there is a whole other aspect or layer to the content that was missed in the rush to be first, which then leads to a better strategy being formulated.

T2 adds have exactly the same HP as the main NM. (We killed a couple) The main issue with T3 (not confirmed) adds is they are literally clones of the T2 NMs. So if there is a plan to kill the T3 add, on Kalunga for example, the group will need to prepare for the moves of Gigelorum + exploit the Blunt weakness of Gigelorum. Might kill a T3 add today for science. I'm speculating they have the same HP as the T2 variants though. It's likely possible to kill a T3 add and still kill the main NM in the same 15min window, but all initial info seems to point that it likely would be a waste of time if the plan is to use one 15min session. If the T3 NM can't respawn their add in a subsequent run (assuming the group stays inside gaol) then you could theoretically deal with the add in the first set of jobs, kill it, then re-enter and kill the main NM. If they can respawn their adds...Welp. I can confirm the T3 adds have access to the same TP moves as their T2 NM variants, or at least Matamata did when we tried kalunga. (Have n't tried the other T3s yet but assume they would function in the same way)

-Edits

Each time we had an actual tank, or one person holding the 'main' NM, whether by dealing dmg or actively trying to tank; the add would pretty much ignore any enmity actions from the first/highest person on the hate list/ignore them, at most they would turn towards the tank for a second (after a flash for example) or two then go back after someone else.

Ok so we think that the T1/T2's are just regular mobs but the T3's summon a T2 as their add? If that's the case then the only solution would be to bind / sleep / kite / etc.. them as killing a T2 and T3 in the same time window might not be feasible, especially if they have different weakness's.

Lex would it be possible to get one your DD's or tanks to run flippants parser and export the XML for review? We won't be gathering again until tomorrow night and I don't expect Asura's insane queue will get any better for awhile.

You can check for A3, but I doubt it's different than A2


What I would suggest to test is timing out with add below 5% HP and check if it regen if you reenter. If it doesn't, then it would maybe prevent NM to pop add when one is already up (It SP at start afaik if it's below 75%) and you could kill add below 5% very fast and focus most of the time on boss.

pretty sure i remember add not being up on second entrance and spawning on pull, so it probably is back to full (i hadn't killed it)

Someone else mentioned the boss was alone but the add spawned the moment it aggroed. Didn't state whether they really damage to the add and what it's HP was.

This would make things much easier if this the exact mechanic the adds follow regarding hate :o

It sounded like you were trolling when you mentioned a race to Bumba and people using scoreboard. Didn't get where you were going with that. I thought it was off, but if there was a legitimate point there, I apologize.


I am not. My comment was clearly in regards to a T3, since it was coming off the heels of Rua's strat and I had an idea that Simon quoted was a copy of Lex's. Which was for T3s. We weren't talking about T1 or T2 here.


This had already been established several posts ago by Lex/others, I then made the comment above about looking for alternative methods to just RDM holding, and then you came in afterwards stating that fighting the adds for ~2 minutes was a better alternative to holding it. Again, not for T3s. The confusion was on your part not realizing we were talking about T3 the whole time.

I doubt this is the mechanic. We had people dying, raising, and getting attacked by the add while I, as the tank, was completely ignored most of the time. Although it sometimes both would attack me, it seems like there is an aversion to both mobs targeting the same person. I really don't know what's going on with the enmity.

An additional note, when the add popped on one NM I did not have hate and the add spawned on me. As soon as I pulled hate on the main NM, the add was off.

I forgot to report the t3 HP values. We’re taking on Arebati tonight and I’ll report back here. (If we clear)

As Geriond said, Rua mentioned Caper Emissarius had no effect giving the tank all of the hate. Now what is not clear is if the tank in Rua's group actually tagged the add before the SP was used. Not sure if the add comes out with shared hate or whatnot, but it could be a reason why it completely ignored the tank if there was no initial hate (based on however the mechanics are made) to begin with.

A proper test with that SP should be something like have the PLD tag the add, use a bunch of hate tools and maybe have everyone else do nothing (but heal the party). if after all the tools, invinc, no action from others, and even then doing the SCH SP2 you still can't get hate on the add, then it really does ignore hate on the tank entirely. But even if you could get hate on the add, in the case of Matamata add, it does so much aoe damage, it's not reasonable for a tank to hold both a T3 and him, because melee jobs will get wrecked, as explained by the other poster on the last page.

I will try to test it tonight. I will flash an add and immediately Invincible. I definitely did use abilities like Invincible without pulling the add. I'm not sure if I tagged it, but I was AoE curing which would have gotten me on the hate list. And aside from binding it or casting Gravity, nobody else was acting on the add so it should not have been difficult at all to grab hate. . . even if I started at 0.

I think for all V20NMs, the HP values are unchanged from what V15 values are/were (not counting regen)

Has anyone tried Libra from a SCH to get a reading of the add's Enmity levels on each party member? Might give a glimpse into the mechanics, especially if it shows the tank has zero even after several actions. It's on a one minute timer, could Libra as soon as it pops, then have tank do some hate stuff on it and do it again when it becomes available again.

I think you're right, when we killed Kalunga v20, we had about 5 min left (which is around our kill clear for v15). That wouldn't have been the case if his HP was higher.

Based on my experience regarding adds so far.

Ignores #1 on hate list. (pld flash + invincible was ignored)

Add spawns, goes to #2 on the hate list immediately.

For T1 and T2, the add bounced on whoever did a JA, or magic. (I need to keep testing this)

Just had 6 members of our team kill V20 kalunga. Knowing that aura activation would wipe any debuffs on matamata helped a bunch. Setup was identical to Rua's team, buffs we used were a bit different. Mata popped and changed hate target from DRK to BRD when it was being pulled away to be bound etc and the *** used 2nd aura at 5% and it got a bit messy. Xiu did record the fight, when it's uploaded on youtube i'll post it so it can be used as a reference and improved upon.

Did Procne, Henwen, and Gigelorum tonight, with myself on RDM.

Didn't have any issue Binding Gigelorum's add. Landed every single time with Frazzle III + Ice Threnody. Doesn't seem that resistant to Bind.

Mischief: "Ongo's Tulfaire hate is 100% NOT second person on hate list."

Pikohan: "My first Libra shows PLD 98%, me 13%, Mischief 12%. Add hit me right before my first Libra.

He did multiple libra and the add would go after people who were not 2nd in line with enmity.

(took a PLD with the plan of controlling Ongo's Tulfaire and the thing was all over the place) We had a d/c, it may have affected ***? Anyways direct quotes above lol /shrug