Official BLM Epeen Vs SCH Epeen Thread!! Keep These Fights Clean!

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Official BLM epeen vs SCH epeen thread!! Keep these fights clean!
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 Unicorn.Moldtech
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By Unicorn.Moldtech 2009-10-27 04:14:05
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Midgardsormr.Sectumsempra said:
Just curious, but just woke up in the middle of night and can't get back to sleep so the odd thoughts are coming in, but what are you guys (talking to all the BLM and SCH) fighting that requires you to need to be nuking constantly, anyways? Everything I ever did that mattered anything (Read: not puddings) required you to skillchain and magic burst or be careful of emnity and not really free nuke and such. If the MP pool is never being fully depleted, doesn't it matter simply who does the most damage in the window that damage is to be done, and isn't that usually one or two nukes at a time?


oh boy, every bit of that ^
 Alexander.Leostrife
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By Alexander.Leostrife 2009-10-27 04:18:51
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User submitted image


Just adding another Sch sample.
5/5 Stormsurge, Cream Puff, 6 Int Mog Hat, Mrgn. Cotehardie, Ebullience, Watersday. Nothing else augmented.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-27 04:24:59
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Screenshot of a few nukes so far, neutral day. Used Burn, Cream puff, and an Int potion.

Got up to 1470 which beats the full morrigan, sorc ring, novio blm.
User submitted image

My Gear is far from outstanding on BLM:
User submitted image

So I have to say something was gimping his dmg... and by a lot.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-27 04:31:27
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Merits that effect dmg for those wondering are 4/5 Ice/Thunder potency (Haven't gotten around to capping these yet), no int merits.

p.s. sorry about the size of the pictures :x not a pro at gimp editing.

Edit: Race is Elvaan hence the 66 base int.
 Unicorn.Moldtech
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By Unicorn.Moldtech 2009-10-27 04:34:55
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Answered it for me as i posted it :P

Also, are we doing tests on taru sch vs elf blm or what? Sorry but elf has some shitty int :3

Anyone got hume vs hume tests? Hume is average all around is best race to compare i think.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-27 04:39:47
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Oh sorry, another edit :x

The gear shot doesn't include the int potion bonus. iirc that potion put me up to +55int when in nuking gear.
 Alexander.Leostrife
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By Alexander.Leostrife 2009-10-27 04:47:20
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Naw, wasn't trying to compare dmg with Blind. Just putting out my highest on Watersday. Could be slightly higher I suppose with augments and an Int potion, but other then that I'm not sure.

Edit: Not going to include Sch/Blm, btw.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-27 04:49:26
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Difference between elvaan blm/rdm and taru blm/rdm is 13

The int potion added 12 int to my build.

So a taru should be somewhere pretty close to those numbers provided they have the same gimp gear/merits I do.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-10-27 04:49:59
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I completely forgot about morgana... then again going with the math I did my 3int 6MAB NQ weskit is about the same dmg as that silly 8MAB thing. Like .4int away lol. Though using less int say using obi and relic pants it might bring them to about the same for me.
 Alexander.Leostrife
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By Alexander.Leostrife 2009-10-27 04:53:27
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Might be silly for a Blm to use, but Schs can get away with it outside of HNMs. ^^ Pretty strong piece for Schs imo, but not well-rounded like the ACP body. And wow, +12 INT with the potion? I thought it was +7 last I checked. I'll take another pic in a min with an Int potion.
 Siren.Enternius
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By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-27 04:54:48
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INT potion? It adds anywhere from 10% to 50% INT.

What that means is Blind could get +11 INT or he could get +55 INT.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-10-27 04:57:12
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Alexander.Leostrife said:
Might be silly for a Blm to use, but Schs can get away with it outside of HNMs. ^^ Pretty strong piece for Schs imo, but not well-rounded like the ACP body. And wow, 12 INT with the potion? I thought it was 7 last I checked. I'll take another pic in a min with an Int potion.

It's +10-50%. Also I could get away with morgana body. However the -8macc vs +5skill is kinda lame. I'd have to make up for it somewhere on alot of stuff just like you would even more then me with your lower base skill. I'ts even dumber with int augments on weskit which can give you more dmg AND much much more macc/skill.
 Alexander.Leostrife
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By Alexander.Leostrife 2009-10-27 05:00:35
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Ahh, I'll just hold off from using the potion then if it's a random increase.

Edit: Iceday soon, I'll post a pic for that as well.
 Siren.Enternius
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By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-27 05:11:26
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You want max spike damage?

User submitted image

However, do not turn to SCH for the same thing.
 Alexander.Leostrife
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By Alexander.Leostrife 2009-10-27 05:18:38
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User submitted image

/shrug I'd compare max dmg with a 5/5 Morri Taru Blm/Rdm if I knew one.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-27 05:20:40
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Nice nuke :D
 Alexander.Leostrife
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By Alexander.Leostrife 2009-10-27 05:21:38
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Thank you. :D
 Siren.Enternius
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By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-27 05:22:05
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Thank you, Leo, for proving my point. People always say SCH can't nuke at all.

I was on SCH/BLM with Burn and weather/day bonus and I hit 1992. Provided, my gear is worse than yours but I had at least a 5% bonus from BLM sub.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-27 06:13:32
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hailstorm, iceday, int potion, burn, obi, cream puff.
Blizzard 4
User submitted image

Freeze II
User submitted image
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2009-10-27 06:32:25
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Enternius said:
Thank you, Leo, for proving my point. People always say SCH can't nuke at all.


I know Sch can nuke well. I only took issue with painting Jenounes's numbers as the expected/normal nuke value of a BLM with such gear. It's safe to say something is funny with his numbers. I know it, most the people reading this thread know it, and I'm betting you know it too.

You cannot continue to use that picture as proof of SCH superiority. There are plenty of valid examples you could use to prove your case, however that picture is not one of them.
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 Odin.Nermal
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By Odin.Nermal 2009-10-27 08:44:49
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Long Post Incoming. I have both jobs at 75 and have for a long time. You name it I have it gear wise.

I'm confused as to why screenshots are used in such an argument.

(1)
The damage formula for all spells are in question are known

(2)
The INT and damage modifiers for all mobs used thus far are known (namely the pudding)

(3)
There is absolutely no variance in magic damage outside of possibly day/weather w/o obi bonus and magic critical hit

Given this, you could really go to excel and and start toying with the formula to determine what damage can be dealt. Also, given that augments can greatly enhance your maximum damage if you're truly decked out, it's faulty to say, back-calculate someone's screenshot and say they are lying because he could easily have a simple +2 MAB augment on like a Prism Cape or something.


All this being said, using damage shots is pointless in a SCH vs. BLM argument. It should be plainly obvious that a BLM will be able to do more per shot in nearly every normal circumstance. If someone "pro-sch" in this argument ever tries to say otherwise they are manipulating numbers or citing an extremely odd situation. "Pro-sch" arguments are almost always based on MP efficiency, not highest damage in 1 nuke.

Regarding MP efficiency, there are numerous ways to make the case for either job depending on how you set up your theoretical situation. Is weather involved? Are you solo or teamed? What are you fighting? Are you going to include obscure, rare gear such as Spirit Lantern? Are you limiting efficiency to 1 pudding fight, an entire HNM fight, or maybe even a 20+ minute fight? Basically, there is no clear, definitive, "slam dunk" calculation that can please everyone in terms of its validity. You can always argue some point. The best you can do in such an argument is clearly establish the situation you wish to calculate from and make your case as to why you chose such a situation as a "standard".


For me personally, discussing this using either BLM/SCH or SCH/BLM is completely absurd unless you are dealing with a "absolute highest damage not considering any other factor" situation. Losing access to Blink and especially Stoneskin is almost crippling in most normal and endgame situations. You may get away with it in a good team, but it is rather hard to argue that you are being more "efficient" in your slot by removing all your defensive capabilities and going "glass cannon". I think if you really wanted to have a good debate you would have to limit this to SCH/RDM (the only "standard" SCH combo) and BLM/RDM or /WHM. Anything outside of this and you're really dealing with abnormal, 'niche' situations, which certainly does not include pudding solo.

Overall, which is 'better' will depend on the event you choose to do. Some events scream BLM (e.g. JoL adds), some events scream SCH (nyzul). The debate thus far seems to focus on soloing puddings, in which case, both can easily chain 5, but have a difficult team getting 6 w/o 2hr (for 2 entirely different reasons - a BLM due to usually MP, a SCH due to usually killing speed). I have both jobs leveled to 75 and I usually solo on BLM, but it's only because it's a more simple job to play and constant SCH JA usage requires you to be more careful of JA-aggro by puddings.

Also, if we were really talking absolute best solo EXP, BLM would win easily simply because pudding camp is no longer the highest EXP/hour yield camp for a BLM (overtaken by Gigas Tiger camp in Xarc[S], which cannot be done by SCH well since it requires 1 shotting - a product of max damage). You can get something like 14k/hour quite easily here based on some blogs on this. It's just an example of how sometimes MP efficiency doesn't trump damage per nuke, though I would still say MP efficiency is usually the most important stat.

So what exactly were we supposed to argue here? Overall which is better? You would have to really go by event to really tell right? The most important thing is to just realize each holds its own strengths and weaknesses and be very aware and -unbiased- as to when 1 may be superior in a given situation.

If I had to pick a side, it would still easily be SCH overall though simply based on the fact that it's a hybrid job. You're arguing BLM vs. 1/2 of SCH and SCH is at the very least holding its own, if not winning. I realize you can't play both sides of SCH at once, but the fact that you can switch in an instant makes it very versatile. Also, most events nowadays (post-CoP era) deal with magic resistant mobs, which limit BLM severely in some cases (e.g. Hydra), or nonstop moving (e.g. Nyzul) so MP efficiency and often native refresh are key. It's simply a much more versatile job and the parts BLM is 'better' are not large enough to overcome this innate versatility.

What holds SCH back is the confusion and difficulty of playing the job. It's a nightmare to maximize without 3rd party and macro aids. If you can't play up to 'theoretical max' due to player or interface limitations, then arguing theory is pointless right?

end post
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 Kujata.Argettio
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By Kujata.Argettio 2009-10-27 09:07:32
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The thread started as a 'Post your max damage for lolz' but some people had to take it past that and it degenerated into another SCH vs BLM thread.

I think Nermal did a very good job of summing up the argument (but I am trying not to get dragged into commenting on the SCH vs BLM thing, as it bores the hell out of me now it is being re-hashed for the millionth time).
 Remora.Laphine
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By Remora.Laphine 2009-10-27 09:17:25
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yep, really well spoken Nermal /praise ^^

Argettio lol, could you expect anything else? epeen vs epeen, surely would be dragged to this
 Kujata.Argettio
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By Kujata.Argettio 2009-10-27 09:23:45
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No I didn't expect anything else.

But I did hope for something else.
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 Odin.Blazza
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By Odin.Blazza 2009-10-27 10:22:53
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Nermal said:
</thread>
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-27 10:23:51
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Siren.Enternius said:
You want max spike damage?

User submitted image

However, do not turn to SCH for the same thing.


User submitted image

Not on some lameass VT meripo mob either.
 Ramuh.Lilbusta
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By Ramuh.Lilbusta 2009-10-27 11:06:09
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Garuda.Wooooodum said:
Siren.Enternius said:
You want max spike damage? User submitted image However, do not turn to SCH for the same thing.
User submitted image Not on some lameass VT meripo mob either.


Luck! I wanna see a consistent Slug shot SS. ;P
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-10-27 12:13:42
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Ramuh.Lilbusta said:
Luck! I wanna see a consistent Slug shot SS. ;P


That is more or less my consistency, but I don't screenshot it on things like Greater Colibri. Anybody can deal good damage on them.
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